Heaven and That Other Place

[Andyintheuk]

It's a parable and it's not even about an afterlife. Hades is the grave not a place of eternal torment.

Yes it's a parable but Jesus gave a quite graphic description; I really don't think he was over-egging it. Hell is a place of torment, a place that should be avoided. Thousands, maybe millions were whisked to Hell in the great flood, thousands of years later they were still there when Jesus was taken there: 1 Peter Ch 3 v 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine long-suffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. - They're still there. We need to witness, tell, beg, urge, plead and preach to our unbelieving loved ones and colleagues that Hell is a very real place but not inevitable, because God through His son's death has rescued them from it, if only they'd accept.

To hear some people who water down the distinction between the two, you'd think you're listening to the difference between 1 star and 5 star rated hotels rated on Trip Adviser.

 

[PeterJens]

Where is Hell?
In the hearts of lost souls.
So many have talked about hell being a place of torture where the evil deeds of people are punished,
yet the bigger hell is in the lost souls of man, and the harm they have done to others who they claimed
to love and care about. This pain, emotional pain drives them nuts, day and night.

 

[GodsGrace]

I like how the verse uses the word στρεφω strepho

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

στρεφω strepho {stref'-o} strengthened from the base of 5157; TDNT - 7:714,1093; v AV - turn 11, turn (one's) self 2, turn (one) 1, turn again 1, turn back again 1, turn (one) about 1, be converted 1, vr turn 1; 19 1) to turn, turn around 2) to turn one's self (i.e. to turn the back to one 2a) of one who no longer cares for another) 2b) metaph. to turn one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind

τροπη trope {trop-ay'} from an apparently primary trepo {to turn};; n f AV - turning 1; 1 1) a turning 1a) of the heavenly bodies


In this case " converted " really means that one turn away from former beliefs and behaviors

It's like the opposite of what an apostate does , turns from the truth

"Like"
and welcome to the forum.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not sure where you obtain your definition of the word conversion? To me conversion is what happened on the road to Damascus, ‘turn away from former beliefs and behaviour’ doesn’t seem to cut it. Jesus spoke more in John chapter 3,
“Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
What’s needed is a total rebirth rather than a turn away.

Repent means to turn away from the road you're on and go the other way.
Apousía is correct.
Convert means to change from one thing to another.
You must repent first, before you could be converted.
If you're on your way to satan, on THAT ROAD, you cannot be converted.
You must turn around, and go toward God, and on THAT ROAD, you will be able to experience conversion.

 

[GodsGrace]

=
That's an interesting take on the word "converted" that you are supplying.

Something to consider, is that this word is pro-active.....so, its not just turning from...its turning TO something.
For example, turning from the darkness, to the LIGHT.
Converting, conversion, (born again) in the "Christian" sense, is not just turning from your old ways, towards new ones... as THAT is simply "religion", and hell is always looking for a few more religious people.
Millions of people "repent" every Jan 1st, via a resolution....which is really a turning from something, towards .....
So, that is a type of repentance.

Christianity, on the other hand, is actually the process whereby a person becomes joined to God , via conversion, and are converted, based on God accepting our faith to then regenerate use, (supplying & applying the Atonement) as His own specific type of conversion.
So, in this, we see that there is more to conversion this just a behavior change.
And once again, just like like all things that are a part of Salvation - Redemption, its all God's solution and application.
He is the one who created a means of conversion, for all of mankind, using Himself as the Son and a Cross and a Resurrection.

Finally, when we consider why and how we are saved and kept saved, then the word "credit" has to be applied 100% to God, who is the redeemer using Christ's blood and sinless sacrifice - death and resurrection, as the entire means to achieve for us, "conversion", whereby we have become converted.
To repent, is not to be converted........as all this does is put you in POSITION to be accepted by God, which then BECOMES your conversion once God applies the atonement.
So then....how much credit do we get for our conversion - converted?

A.) ZERO.

THis is why John 14:6 & Titus 3:5 are in the NT.
Its showing you exactly who gets the credit for our conversion.
Repentance and Faith, do not save you..........but instead they put you in the correct (contrite) position which God immediately accepts to then SAVE YOU.

 

[Andyintheuk]

Repent means to turn away from the road you're on and go the other way.
Apousía is correct.
Convert means to change from one thing to another.
You must repent first, before you could be converted.
If you're on your way to satan, on THAT ROAD, you cannot be converted.
You must turn around, and go toward God, and on THAT ROAD, you will be able to experience conversion.

Never thought of it like that before. I suppose becoming a Christian is a very different experience for many of us. For some it's instant, like the road to Damascus, often a response to a crisis. For others, and for me, it was more gradual, like an infusion but it was over years before I could honestly say I belong to God. Whether it was a repentance or conversion I'm not sure, nor in what order.

Over the years you realise just how dependant on God you actually are, but also in faith what you can achieve and do. I'm guessing that conversion process is ongoing.

 

[PeterJens]

Not sure where you obtain your definition of the word conversion? To me conversion is what happened on the road to Damascus, ‘turn away from former beliefs and behaviour’ doesn’t seem to cut it. Jesus spoke more in John chapter 3,
“Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
What’s needed is a total rebirth rather than a turn away.

I like you idea of a total rebirth, like turning from a catapillar into a butterfly.
What happened to Paul? His heart direction was changed, but his knowledge, enthusiasm, dedication
remained intact. The things that made him were used by God rather than the enemy, but they were
not remade.
Nineveh repented of their evil deeds, showed remorse, and God forgave them.
Jesus took this as His example of the gospel and His message to the world.

When preaching to Israel towns and villages He expected the them to react like Nineveh and accept
Him and the disciples. Some did, but obviously some did not.

I have always wondered about Jesus's comment about being born again, because without the Holy
Spirit being sent, I am not sure this was truly possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Never thought of it like that before. I suppose becoming a Christian is a very different experience for many of us. For some it's instant, like the road to Damascus, often a response to a crisis. For others, and for me, it was more gradual, like an infusion but it was over years before I could honestly say I belong to God. Whether it was a repentance or conversion I'm not sure, nor in what order.

Over the years you realise just how dependant on God you actually are, but also in faith what you can achieve and do. I'm guessing that conversion process is ongoing.

You're right.
You repent one time. Conversion is life-long. Hopefully we get better and better.
It's also called sanctification. Being set apart for God.

Did I remember to welcome you?

 

[GodsGrace]

I like you idea of a total rebirth, like turning from a catapillar into a butterfly.
What happened to Paul? His heart direction was changed, but his knowledge, enthusiasm, dedication
remained intact. The things that made him were used by God rather than the enemy, but they were
not remade.
Nineveh repented of their evil deeds, showed remorse, and God forgave them.
Jesus took this as His example of the gospel and His message to the world.

When preaching to Israel towns and villages He expected the them to react like Nineveh and accept
Him and the disciples. Some did, but obviously some did not.

I have always wondered about Jesus's comment about being born again, because without the Holy
Spirit being sent, I am not sure this was truly possible.

Do you believe in this dispensation idea?
IOW, the " Church age " began in Acts when the Holy Spirit became indwelt.

 

[Butch5]

Yes it's a parable but Jesus gave a quite graphic description; I really don't think he was over-egging it. Hell is a place of torment, a place that should be avoided. Thousands, maybe millions were whisked to Hell in the great flood, thousands of years later they were still there when Jesus was taken there: 1 Peter Ch 3 v 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine long-suffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. - They're still there. We need to witness, tell, beg, urge, plead and preach to our unbelieving loved ones and colleagues that Hell is a very real place but not inevitable, because God through His son's death has rescued them from it, if only they'd accept.

To hear some people who water down the distinction between the two, you'd think you're listening to the difference between 1 star and 5 star rated hotels rated on Trip Adviser.

Firstly, what we think doesn't have any bearing on what was said. You agree it was parable. The first thing we need to look at is who was Jesus speaking to? He was speaking to the Pharisees. We are told in Scripture that Jesus only spoke to them in parables, so that hearing they would hear and not understand. So, His point was to tell them something and yet they wouldn't understand it. Well, they surely would understand it if it was really about dead people. But it wan't. He was telling them what was going happen shortly. The parable is about the coming end of the priesthood and the Jewish leadership. That's why the rich man is in Hades. Hades is the grave. The rich man was a Jew of prominence. He wore purple and fine linen. The priests wore purple and fine linen. The rich man had 5 brothers. Levi, the priestly tribe, had five brothers. Not that long after this parable the priesthood would be in Hades, the grave.

When Jesus spoke of the punishment of the wicked it was in Gehenna, not Hades. John said the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. The obvious conclusion is that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place. Neither of them said the wicked would suffer in Hades. However, there is a mention of Hades and burning. However, it is not people burning, it is God's anger.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.1
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. (Deut. 32:15-23 KJV)

We see here that the fire burning in Hades is God's anger against the Jews for their rebellion. Remember, the rich man is a Jew, one dressed in purple and fine linen. He is the one in the flame in Hades. Note also in this passage that God said He would hide His face from them. That's just what He did when the Temple was destroyed in AD 70. The same time the priesthood came to an end, thus the rich man in Hades. That we know this passage is about Christ's day can be seen in the fact that Paul alludes to this passage and applies it to the Israelites of his day. Paul alludes to verse 21.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (Rom. 11:11 KJV)

There's a lot more that can be said on this, but the point is it's not about people being alive when they're dead.

You also referred to 1 Peter 3. If we look closely at the passage and the order of events we find that the proclamation that Jesus made to the spirits in prison was made after He resurrected. Also, the spirits in prison were disobedient spirits, not people, not people's ghosts. They were, what are commonly referred to as angels. His proclamation was that the spirits were subject to Him.

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Pet. 3:22 KJV)

So, we shouldn't go around scaring people telling them they are going to burn for eternity. "The wages of sin is death". "The soul that sinneth, it shall die". If people reject Christ they will die. They will be resurrected, judged, and die again, the second death. That's what the Scriptures tell us.

 

[PeterJens]

Do you believe in this dispensation idea?
IOW, the " Church age " began in Acts when the Holy Spirit became indwelt.

I do not think in a dispensation way about it, ie the Lord and the way of redemption has changed,
and we are now eternal beings with a perfect spirit etc and lost flesh.

What is obvious is prior to the pentecost there were not gifts of the Spirit and after there were.
Israel was a nation who had to perform ceremonies, had civil law, and penal law rules, and acted
as an identity. They were the only way to access the Lord.

We are a body who live as a community within the current society, witnessing the inner truth and
freedom, and exercising the gifts of the Spirit. One could describe this as a different faith, because
the whole revelation and way of being a follower has radically changed.

Jesus preached "Repent for the Kingdom of God is near."
One could read this two ways. The Kingdom of God in Jesus had now come to earth and He was
establishing its presence on earth through His people filled with the Holy Spirit.
Or the day of judgement was about to come, so people needed to get themselves right before God.

Now Jesus said to His disciples,
1> And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." Mark 9:1
Then came the transfiguration. God anointing Jesus as His son, as a witness He is the Messiah, we need to listen
to him.

What more power does one need as a confirmation of ones authority.
Jesus bound them to keep this secret until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
They did not know what risen from the dead was, so they discussed among themselves.

In a sense we are bringing heaven to earth through our communion with God.
What one does not see is the difference easily is the difference between love flowing from
God in our hearts and the lostness in the world, the sting of death. This is a big divide.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not think in a dispensation way about it, ie the Lord and the way of redemption has changed,
and we are now eternal beings with a perfect spirit etc and lost flesh.

What is obvious is prior to the pentecost there were not gifts of the Spirit and after there were.
Israel was a nation who had to perform ceremonies, had civil law, and penal law rules, and acted
as an identity. They were the only way to access the Lord.

We are a body who live as a community within the current society, witnessing the inner truth and
freedom, and exercising the gifts of the Spirit. One could describe this as a different faith, because
the whole revelation and way of being a follower has radically changed.

Jesus preached "Repent for the Kingdom of God is near."
One could read this two ways. The Kingdom of God in Jesus had now come to earth and He was
establishing its presence on earth through His people filled with the Holy Spirit.
Or the day of judgement was about to come, so people needed to get themselves right before God.

Now Jesus said to His disciples,
1> And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." Mark 9:1
Then came the transfiguration. God anointing Jesus as His son, as a witness He is the Messiah, we need to listen
to him.

What more power does one need as a confirmation of ones authority.
Jesus bound them to keep this secret until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
They did not know what risen from the dead was, so they discussed among themselves.

In a sense we are bringing heaven to earth through our communion with God.
What one does not see is the difference easily is the difference between love flowing from
God in our hearts and the lostness in the world, the sting of death. This is a big divide.

Very Good PJ.
I agree.
I also believe Jesus came to set up His Kingdom on earth.
You have a great way of saying things.
Thanks.

 

[Andyintheuk]

Firstly, what we think doesn't have any bearing on what was said. You agree it was parable. The first thing we need to look at is who was Jesus speaking to? He was speaking to the Pharisees. We are told in Scripture that Jesus only spoke to them in parables, so that hearing they would hear and not understand. So, His point was to tell them something and yet they wouldn't understand it. Well, they surely would understand it if it was really about dead people. But it wan't. He was telling them what was going happen shortly. The parable is about the coming end of the priesthood and the Jewish leadership. That's why the rich man is in Hades. Hades is the grave. The rich man was a Jew of prominence. He wore purple and fine linen. The priests wore purple and fine linen. The rich man had 5 brothers. Levi, the priestly tribe, had five brothers. Not that long after this parable the priesthood would be in Hades, the grave.

When Jesus spoke of the punishment of the wicked it was in Gehenna, not Hades. John said the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. The obvious conclusion is that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place. Neither of them said the wicked would suffer in Hades. However, there is a mention of Hades and burning. However, it is not people burning, it is God's anger.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.1
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. (Deut. 32:15-23 KJV)

We see here that the fire burning in Hades is God's anger against the Jews for their rebellion. Remember, the rich man is a Jew, one dressed in purple and fine linen. He is the one in the flame in Hades. Note also in this passage that God said He would hide His face from them. That's just what He did when the Temple was destroyed in AD 70. The same time the priesthood came to an end, thus the rich man in Hades. That we know this passage is about Christ's day can be seen in the fact that Paul alludes to this passage and applies it to the Israelites of his day. Paul alludes to verse 21.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (Rom. 11:11 KJV)

There's a lot more that can be said on this, but the point is it's not about people being alive when they're dead.

You also referred to 1 Peter 3. If we look closely at the passage and the order of events we find that the proclamation that Jesus made to the spirits in prison was made after He resurrected. Also, the spirits in prison were disobedient spirits, not people, not people's ghosts. They were, what are commonly referred to as angels. His proclamation was that the spirits were subject to Him.

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Pet. 3:22 KJV)

So, we shouldn't go around scaring people telling them they are going to burn for eternity. "The wages of sin is death". "The soul that sinneth, it shall die". If people reject Christ they will die. They will be resurrected, judged, and die again, the second death. That's what the Scriptures tell us.

I'd always be very careful about dismissing a passage of the Bible as: 'Well that was addressed to ... so it doesn't apply to me'. Whilst you may be right, it doesn't necessarily make it irrelevant to you or I. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is relevant to a much wider audience than just a few select Pharisees. It's a passage of great comfort to those caught in abject poverty and a dire warning to the 'more comfortably off' who care nothing for the poor and/or who do not believe in Jesus and accept his salvation.

An example is the parable of the Rich Fool in Luke 12 v 13-21. You may comfort yourself that this doesn't apply to you because you're not rich but you're quite sensible. In truth, the parable is a warning about complacency and dependence upon financial security, something I'm prone to do but often jolted back to reality when my life hits a pot-hole!

From what you're saying, you believe there are two hells, or equivalent. The Bible's far from clear and so there's room for a variety of speculative opinions. In some places it's described as 'outer darkness' Matt 25 v 30, elsewhere a place of burning, weeping and gnashing of teeth Matt 13 v 42. I don't think there's two places, where you do your time in outer darkness and perhaps with bad behaviour you get transferred to the place of burning. I think more likely these are different descriptions of the same place but the problem is we can't be precise because we have no concept of just how awful it is; in much the same way the English language struggle to come up with suitably accurate descriptions of Heaven. Like I say fun speculation but of no consequence because we won't be going there.

 

[Jim Parker]

Where is Hell?
In the hearts of lost souls.
So many have talked about hell being a place of torture where the evil deeds of people are punished,
yet the bigger hell is in the lost souls of man, and the harm they have done to others who they claimed
to love and care about. This pain, emotional pain drives them nuts, day and night.

Interesting thought.
Not bad.

 

[Butch5]

I'd always be very careful about dismissing a passage of the Bible as: 'Well that was addressed to ... so it doesn't apply to me'. Whilst you may be right, it doesn't necessarily make it irrelevant to you or I. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is relevant to a much wider audience than just a few select Pharisees. It's a passage of great comfort to those caught in abject poverty and a dire warning to the 'more comfortably off' who care nothing for the poor and/or who do not believe in Jesus and accept his salvation.

An example is the parable of the Rich Fool in Luke 12 v 13-21. You may comfort yourself that this doesn't apply to you because you're not rich but you're quite sensible. In truth, the parable is a warning about complacency and dependence upon financial security, something I'm prone to do but often jolted back to reality when my life hits a pot-hole!

From what you're saying, you believe there are two hells, or equivalent. The Bible's far from clear and so there's room for a variety of speculative opinions. In some places it's described as 'outer darkness' Matt 25 v 30, elsewhere a place of burning, weeping and gnashing of teeth Matt 13 v 42. I don't think there's two places, where you do your time in outer darkness and perhaps with bad behaviour you get transferred to the place of burning. I think more likely these are different descriptions of the same place but the problem is we can't be precise because we have no concept of just how awful it is; in much the same way the English language struggle to come up with suitably accurate descriptions of Heaven. Like I say fun speculation but of no consequence because we won't be going there.

I'm not dismissing the passage, but merely pointing out that it was said to a specific group, therefore the meaning of the parable is pertinent to that group. We can speculate whether or not it has other applications, but that's just speculation. Jesus said that He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Therefore His words are pertinent to Israel. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man doesn't even fit with the supposed eternal torment. Firstly, the Rich Man is buried and in Hades. Hades is the grave. As I pointed out in the last post, the burning in Hades is God's anger against Israel for their rebellion. Jesus was constantly rebuking the Pharisees for their rebellion. And their judgment came 40 years after His crucifixion. The place of sinners burning is Gehenna, not Hades. Also, it is supposed to be spirits burning for eternity, yet those in the parable all have bodies. Abraham has a bosom, Lazarus has fingers, the rich man has a tongue. These are all body parts. Spirit don't have bodies. So, you see, the parable doesn't even fit with the ETC concept.

I'm not sure how you concluded that I think there are two hells. I don't like to use the word because it's not a Biblical concept. There are three places that are all translated as Hell. One is Gehenna, one is Hades, and one is Tartarus. Tartarus, is reserved for spirit. Hades is simple the grave where the body is put, Gehenna is a valley located outside of Jerusalem. This is where the bodies of the wicked will be burned. The modern English concept of Hell isn't in the Scriptures. Jesus calls the place where the wicked are burned Gehenna. John, in the Revelation calls the place the lake of fire. It would seem that these two place are one and the same.

I would disagree with your statement that the Bible is far from clear on this. Rather I would argue that it is very clear. The problem is that people try to force preconceived ideas onto the text. For instance, "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" say nothing of Hell. Rather, because people have this preconceived idea of Hell they assume that this is what the passages are referring to. Notice Jesus said the children of the kingdom would be cast into outer darkness. These were Israelites. Jesus is alluding to Psalm 112. It speaks of the righteous being benefited and the wicked seeing it an grieving and gnashing his teeth.

The Bible is actually very clear on the subject of what happens when we die. The problem is that there is 2000 years of people adding their theologies and traditions Christianity.