heaven or hell

[Solo]

What happens to those of the second resurrection?

Hi Solo. It's my understanding that this is the resurrection of the wicked. They will indeed perish FOREVER but not before they know the reason/s WHY. This is all a part of God's justice. No one who is sentenced to eternal death will remain in ignorance as to the fact that this was THEIR choice and not God's. This is the way that I understand it.

If they perish and cease to exist, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to bring them back just to do away with them. Of course the school of thought concerning perishishing from existence is questionable in light of the entire word of God.

 

[gingercat]

Hi, solo

I would like to put my two cents worth in if you don't mind.

It is my understanding that wicked ones just perish.

We should study the Bible with whole context especially when it comes to hell.

God is love. God would never put anyone into forever burning place. I believe understanding the Bible is all so messed up because people are not really interested in finding out the whole truth about the Bible.

We should go back to the original Bible.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

God is love. God would never put anyone into forever burning place.

Ah...Deus Caritas Est..How true.

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. People choose Hell.

To say God sends people to Hell is like if I were to take my parents car without asking, get punished, and blame my parents for the punishent.

I believe understanding the Bible is all so messed up because people are not really interested in finding out the whole truth about the Bible.

Very true.

We should go back to the original Bible

Oral tradition? :-D

Hey Mutz,

First let me say this.

Why do I believe in Hell?

When I ask people who they think is the most compassionate and loving person in Scripture, everytime they say "Jesus is of course!". Rightly so.

Interestingly....Jesus speaks of Hell more than anyone else in sacred Scripture.

Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17 - John the Baptist said the Lord will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. This unquenchable fire is the state of eternal separation from God, which the Church has called "hell" for 2,000 years. Some Protestant communities no longer acknowledge the reality of hell.

Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matt. 25:46 - Jesus says, "they will go away into eternal punishment" which is in reference to this eternal fire.

Mark 9:47-48 - Jesus refers to hell as where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. It lasts forever.

2 Thess. 1:6-9 - the angels will come with flaming fire and the disobedient will suffer punishment of eternal destruction. It is important to note that "destruction" does not mean "annihilation," as some Protestant denominations teach. It means eternal exclusion from the presence of God.

Jude 6-7 - the rebelling angels, and Sodom and Gomorrah, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Rev. 14:11 - the worshipers of the beast suffer and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Rev. 20:10 - they're tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever.

Isaiah 33:14 - "Who of us can dwell in the everlasting fire?" This is a reference to hell which is forever.

Isaiah 66:24 - their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched. We cannot fathom the pain of this eternal separation from God.

Jer. 15:14 - in my anger a fire is kindled which shall burn forever. Hell is the proper compliment to the eternal bliss of heaven.

Judith 16:17 - in the day of judgment the Lord will take vengeance on the wicked and they shall weep in pain forever. Hell is a place that sinners have prepared for themselves by rejecting God, who desires all people to be saved in His Son Jesus Christ. God sends no one to hell.

-Scripture Catholic

Hell sounds more like a place of suffering...Not just perishing.

 

[gingercat]

Hell sounds more like a place of suffering...Not just perishing.

Just because you dont understand God and you dont want to know the truth. You are Catholic and you are not interested in the whole truth. Just think about the prodigal son story fulton.

 

[ChristineES]

God is love. God would never put anyone into forever burning place. I believe understanding the Bible is all so messed up because people are not really interested in finding out the whole truth about the Bible.

This is one thing we agree on. I don't believe in some eternal fiery pit either. I do believe that they are cut off from God. I believe in sheol, which means the grave when people die.
I don't think most people really "read" the Bible. I am convinced that they pick out verses here are there to support their beliefs. If you read it straight through as I and others have done, you may get a different picture than just picking out verses.

 

[gingercat]

Yes Christine,

If we understnd God as Loving, it is not so hard to understand the Bible.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

I don't believe in some eternal fiery pit either

Yet, it seems that Jesus says it is. He refers to it as a place where the "fire is never quenched" and the "Worm never dies". In fact Jesus even gives us an illustration. He refers to Hell as "Gehenna" which was literally a burning dump on the outskirts of town.

Jesus speaks of Hell more than any other figure in sacred Scripture.

 

[gingercat]

I said my piece, I would not scare people away with this kind of untruth if I were you.

 

[ChristineES]

I am nipping this one in the bud. I am not going to be drawn into any argument about what hell is. Sorry.

 

[SputnikBoy]

What happens to those of the second resurrection?

Hi Solo. It's my understanding that this is the resurrection of the wicked. They will indeed perish FOREVER but not before they know the reason/s WHY. This is all a part of God's justice. No one who is sentenced to eternal death will remain in ignorance as to the fact that this was THEIR choice and not God's. This is the way that I understand it.

If they perish and cease to exist, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to bring them back just to do away with them. Of course the school of thought concerning perishishing from existence is questionable in light of the entire word of God.

I think you may have missed my point, Solo. The unrighteous NEED to be brought back to life in the second resurrection in order to complete the act of God's justice ...even if only for the righteous' sake. None of the righteous will ever be able to come back at God for His having destroyed the unrighteous without first informing them that it was THEIR choice, not His, to reject the gift of eternal life.

So there IS a need for a resurrection of the wicked in order to appease the righteous as well as to exonerate God from any future 'gross misdemeanor' that may be leveled at Him by others.

 

[gingercat]

There is no resurrection for wicked sput.

 

[SputnikBoy]

There is no resurrection for wicked sput.

I'm referring to the second resurrection, ginger. The first resurrection of the righteous occurs at the second coming of Jesus. The second resurrection of the wicked occurs some time later. I've already explained my reasons for believing this. THEN, and only then, will the wicked be destroyed permanently.

 

[gingercat]

There is no resurrection for wicked sput.

I'm referring to the second resurrection, ginger. The first resurrection of the righteous occurs at the second coming of Jesus. The second resurrection of the wicked occurs some time later. I've already explained my reasons for believing this. THEN, and only then, will the wicked be destroyed permanently.

Resurrection is for people following Jesus and never had chance to know Jesus. Those people who never had chance will be given a chance in a thousand years of Jusus' reign.

Wicked ones just perish.

We should meditate on the story of prodigal son. That is clear portrate of God.

We should not think like that faithful son who feel unfair how God is treating that prodigal son and feeling resentful for God's treatment of other unfaithful ones.

God's just go along with love. They never contradict.

 

[jgredline]

There is no resurrection for wicked sput.

I'm referring to the second resurrection, ginger. The first resurrection of the righteous occurs at the second coming of Jesus. The second resurrection of the wicked occurs some time later. I've already explained my reasons for believing this. THEN, and only then, will the wicked be destroyed permanently.

Resurrection is for people following Jesus and never had chance to know Jesus. Those people who never had chance will be given a chance in a thousand years of Jusus' reign.

Wicked ones just perish.

We should meditate on the story of prodigal son. That is clear portrate of God.

We should not think like that faithful son who feel unfair how God is treating that prodigal son and feeling resentful for God's treatment of other unfaithful ones.

God's just go along with love. They never contradict.

May I suggest taking a look and study Heb 9

Passage Hebrews 9:27:28
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


If you do not accept Christ as saviour, your done. Its that simple.

 

[Relic]

.

From the last chapter of the Bible:

• 
  Revelation 22:11
  11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
  
  
  Revelation 22: 14-15
  14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
  
  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

.

 

[mutzrein]

What happens to those of the second resurrection?

Solo - I'm sorry I missed this. Can you please give me references for the resurrections (first & second). But without looking at it, my contention is any resurrection is only for those who are given eternal life.

 

[mutzrein]

FSW - Sorry I missed this thread.

Don't get me wrong. I believe in hell. But my contention is that it is reserved for those who, having received the gift of life turn back to their own righteousness. These are the wicked. But those who have not been born of God (and given life), perish without judgement.

 

[Solo]

What happens to those of the second resurrection?

Solo - I'm sorry I missed this. Can you please give me references for the resurrections (first & second). But without looking at it, my contention is any resurrection is only for those who are given eternal life.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:1-15

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[sigh1]

I think it is irresponsible to tell people that hell does not exist, or that unless you have made a choice you don't need to worry.
I think you hurt many more by making statements such as "God is love therefore he wouldn't..."

Firstly: The parable of the prodigal son refers to the fact that We can turn away from God and do everything the way we want to but we always have the door left open, we can return to God Repent and it will be like we never left.
Secondly: It's true that God is love, but to say that that is all he is is to deny God's wraith, justice, grace and mercy. Without some sort of punishment grace and mercy are pointless. The Christian life is hard, what's the point of choosing it if we could just not, and in effect get away scott free.
Thirdly: Hell, or the lake of fire, is completely different to Hades. Hades, as mentioned in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, is the Jewish holding place. Jesus taught about it because it was what he knew to be true. In Hades the good and the bad are separated by a giant chasm that they can't cross. The bad suffer, while the good (righteous) live in a sort of paradise until they are resurrected. The wicked will have a resurrection at the end of the thousand year reign, where they will be judged, and the only judgement needed is that they did not choose Jesus. Those present at this final judgement will then be thrown into the lake of fire, where they will live out their choice for all of eternity. To be destroyed utterly is not a punishment, to have to live with the knowledge that you picked wrong is.

I don't know the details of what hell will be like other then that it will be bad, eternal and nothing but torment, but I do know that Hell fits with my picture of a loving, merciful, just God.

 

[jgredline]

Sigh1
I don't know the details of what hell will be like other then that it will be bad, eternal and nothing but torment, but I do know that Hell fits with my picture of a loving, merciful, just God.[/quote]

AMEN