heaven or hell

[Rick W]

I don't know the details of what hell will be like other then that it will be bad, eternal and nothing but torment, but I do know that Hell fits with my picture of a loving, merciful, just God.

From another thread:

I know. No loving God would commit non-believers to such a tragedy as hell forever. Doesn't make sense to do such a thing does it?
Thing is, His ways aren't susceptable to our judgment.

The second death? Ah, the future of His judgment, something we can't fathom as being reality because it hasn't yet happened. Why is it we can't learn from the past ignoring that which has already occured? His judgment. How can a loving God commit ALL of mankind to ALL the suffering in this world for the fault of one guy, Adam? I mean, come on now. So he ate an apple. Does that mean we and all life on earth are tossed to the hell of suffering? Animals too since they are under our dominance. All life comdemned to suffer for the disregard of one simple commanmdment by a guy we don't even know.

Does that make any sense to your sensibilty of righteous and humanistic judgment? If so please explain how that one trangression warrants death to come into the world for thousands of years and who knows how much longer.

In human terms I would think maybe cast Adam and his lot out of The Garden and leave the rest of us there. Seems only right, no? After all, it wasn't our fault Adam fell to temptation right? Why comdemn us all to the first death in the first place because of someone else's disregard for God's integrity?

So I ask those who cannot accept His future judgment as the work of a righteous and loving God why He made things so miserable for us for milleniums passed? How can you justify His judgment back then as OK but toss out His future comdemnation as something He wouldn't do?
Sometimes I think we allow our sense of right and wrong to overshadow the authority of God Himself solely based on how we feel about something. And how can one justify the destruction of The Flood against those who may never heard of the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob in the first place let alone comdemn those that follow to a world of depravity?

Before we condemn His future judgment to the trash heap I think it wise to consider what He's done in the past. Even if that judgment goes against our sense of fairplay. And I believe it prudent to take that as a very strong warning that God is not interested in man's opinion of righteousness or man's sensibilities. After all, even the non-believer shares in the suffering of this world. Is that right?

So, does the first death from Adam fit your picture of a loving, merciful, just God? And the Flood. God judged all, even non-believers. All life was wiped off the face of the earth, all shared in His judgement equally except 8 people. Was that fair?

 

[sigh1]

Yes it does.

Every one since Adam has had the choice to side with God or against him.

A few points.
Adam wasn't judged for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (which is usually portrayed as an apple), he was judged for disobeying God.
Animals live in a state in which they act as they were always meant to. There is no heaven or hell for animals but don't start on that discussion, it's not particularly important and distracts from the issue.
God's judgements have always had a reason, Adam, the flood due to the entire population of the world save Noah and his family were evil and depraved.

Our choice to disobey just proves that we are not perfect or up to God's standard.

 

[Rick W]

Exactly.
So why should His judgement of the second death be any different? Mankind still rebels against God even after the first death and the Flood.
All will be judged, either Heaven or Hell, regardless of our picture of a just and loving God and regardless if they believe or not as seen in the past.

 

[jgredline]

Jesus spoke about hell far more than he spoke about heavan


The NASB Topical Index


Luke 16:23-28
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and pcool my tongue; for I qam tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, rremember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’
Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, iand they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 jand will cast them into the furnace of fire. kThere will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, i‘Depart from Me, you cursed, jinto the everlasting fire prepared for kthe devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer 4Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, linasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And mthese will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â€Â
Luke 16:23
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Revelation 19:20
20 nThen the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and othose who worshiped his image. pThese two were cast alive into the lake of fire qburning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then cDeath and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. dThis is the second 4death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life ewas cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 5:22
22 But I say to you that awhoever is angry with his brother 5without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, b‘Raca!’ 6shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 7‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of 8hell fire.
Matthew 5:29-30
29 iIf your right eye causes you to 1sin, jpluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to 2sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 10:28
28 nAnd do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather ofear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in 8hell.
Matthew 18:8-9
8 i“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into 2hell fire.
Mark 9:43-48
43 lIf your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life 1maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to 2hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched 44 3where
m‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into 4hell, 5into the fire that shall never be quenched 46 where
n‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into 6hell fire 48 where
o‘Their worm does not die
And the pfire is not quenched.’
Luke 12:5
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, ffear Him!
Matthew 13:42
42 jand will cast them into the furnace of fire. kThere will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.â€Â
Matthew 25:41
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, i‘Depart from Me, you cursed, jinto the everlasting fire prepared for kthe devil and his angels:
Mark 9:43
43 lIf your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life 1maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to 2hell, into the fire that shall never be quenchedâ€â€
Luke 16:24
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and pcool my tongue; for I qam tormented in this flame.’
Jude 7
7 as hSodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the 4vengeance of eternal fire.
Revelation 9:2
2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the csun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone swhere 2the beast and the false prophet are. And they twill be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 21:8
8 pBut the cowardly, 5unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in qthe lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.â€Â
2 Kings 23:10
10 And he defiled rTopheth, which is in sthe Valley of the 7Son of Hinnom, tthat no man might make his son or his daughter upass through the fire to Molech.
Jeremiah 7:31
31 And they have built the rhigh places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to sburn their sons and their daughters in the fire, twhich I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.
Matthew 5:29
29 iIf your right eye causes you to 1sin, jpluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:30
30 And if your right hand causes you to 2sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 18:9
9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into 2hell fire.
Matthew 23:15
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of 8hell as yourselves.
Matthew 23:33
33 Serpents, ybrood 5of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Mark 9:43-47
43 lIf your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life 1maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to 2hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched 44 3where
m‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into 4hell, 5into the fire that shall never be quenched 46 where
n‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into 6hell fireâ€â€
James 3:6
6 And ithe tongue is a fire, a world of 3iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it jdefiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of 4nature; and it is set on fire by 5hell.
Matthew 8:12
12 But lthe sons of the kingdom mwill be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.â€Â
Matthew 22:13
13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, 2take him away, and cast him hinto outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:30
30 And cast the unprofitable servant uinto the outer darkness. vThere will be weeping and wgnashing of teeth.’
2 Peter 2:4
Doom of False Teachers
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to 2hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
2 Peter 2:17
17 pThese are wells without water, 7clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness 8forever.
Jude 6
6 And the angels who did not keep their 3proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Jude 13
13 praging waves of the sea, qfoaming up their own shame; wandering stars rfor whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Revelation 16:10
Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain
10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl xon the throne of the beast, yand his kingdom became full of darkness; zand they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.
Luke 8:31
31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out yinto the abyss.
Revelation 9:1
Fifth Trumpet: The Locusts from the Bottomless Pit
9 Then the fifth angel sounded: aAnd I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to bthe 1bottomless pit.
Revelation 9:11
11 And they had as king over them othe angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is 3Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name 4Apollyon.
Revelation 20:1
Satan Bound 1000 Years
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, ahaving the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:3
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and cset a seal on him, dso that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Isaiah 14:11
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’
Isaiah 66:24
24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their cworm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
Mark 9:48
48 where
o‘Their worm does not die
And the pfire is not quenched.’

 

[jgredline]

Exactly.
So why should His judgement of the second death be any different? Mankind still rebels against God even after the first death and the Flood.
All will be judged, either Heaven or Hell, regardless of our picture of a just and loving God and regardless if they believe or not as seen in the past.

This is exactly why we need a saviour.
This is why Jesus went to the cross.
Hell does await those who do not receive Jesus as their savior

 

[jgredline]

HELL
The term hell is commonly associated with the place of punishment for the wicked dead. It is variously used in different English versions of the Bible to translate Sheol in the OT and Gehenna and Tartarus in the NT. The NASB uses “hell†only in the NT, for Gehenna and Tartarus. Since the wicked experience punishment (i.e., chastisement) already before the resurrection and final judgment (cf. Lu 16:23–28), “hell†can be used to describe this intermediate state. The primary significance of the term, however, is the place of eternal punishment. A variety of expressions are used, all designed to depict the agony and destruction of existence separated and cut off from God, the source of life. See also SHEOL, HADES, PUNISHMENT (eternal).
♦ the abode of the wicked (see also HADES, SHEOL): Mt 13:41–42; 25:41–46; Lu 16:23; Re 19:20; 20:14–15 ♦ warning against: Mt 5:22, 29–30; 10:28; 18:8–9; Mk 9:43–48; Lu 12:5
descriptions of (punishment) ♦ fire: Mt 13:42, 50; 25:41; Mk 9:43; Lu 16:24; Jud 7; Re 9:2; 19:20; 20:10, 14–15; 21:8 ♦ Gehenna, a valley south of Jerusalem with loathesome connotations from the time when humans were sacrificed there: 2 Ki 23:10; Je 7:31 ♦ Corpses and garbage were permanently burning in Gehenna making it appropriate as a metaphor of eternal punishment: Mt 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mk 9:43–47; Lu 12:5; Jam 3:6 ♦ darkness: Mt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Pe 2:4, 17; Jud 6, 13; Re 16:10; 21:8 ♦ the abyss: Lu 8:31; Re 9:1, 11; 20:1, 3 ♦ Tartarus, the name in Greco-Latin mythology for the underworld abyss where wicked gods and humans were imprisoned in punishment: 2 Pe 2:4 ♦ place of worms: Is 14:11; 66:24; Mk 9:48

The NASB Topical Index. 1998 (electronic ed.). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.