Heaven Or Paradise?

[jasonc]

Agreed, and who's to say we won't help with that creation?

I've kicked back in thought at times and think how reasonable would it have been for God to say to the Angels, "Here is the plan and I want you, you and you, as you are the best at this to submit some designs for the animals I'm going to put in the Garden with this man and woman. No need to name them, that'll be his responsibility"

And things like that. Sky's the limit.

somebody has been reading ramban or the Talmud. the jews say that about the let us make man in our image. the us being angels and God.

 

[Michael74]

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:15-17 NIV

Its all about Jesus.

 

[Kenny_ms]

somebody has been reading ramban or the Talmud. the jews say that about the let us make man in our image. the us being angels and God.

Na, never read it and I wasn't talking about making man, as far as I know
God took care of that personally. Just a thought on designing some of the animals for instance.

And I do think we may well get involved with the creation of universe or whatever, I got no reason not to, we have to do something. I mean if I lost everything here on earth and my Uncle Jed said he'd take me in and uncle Jed was in the shoe business, I'd very like end up messing with shoes. If my father is in the creation business, I think it very likely I will at least dabble in it.

Want me to post some of my blueprints?

 

[Kenny_ms]

Its all about Jesus.

What exactly do you mean by that?

Are you saying that verse means no one had a part in creation but God or Jesus? or ...well, I just don't know what you are getting out of that, nor what you are trying to convey with it?

 

[jasonc]

somebody has been reading ramban or the Talmud. the jews say that about the let us make man in our image. the us being angels and God.

Na, never read it and I wasn't talking about making man, as far as I know
God took care of that personally. Just a thought on designing some of the animals for instance.

And I do think we may well get involved with the creation of universe or whatever, I got no reason not to, we have to do something. I mean if I lost everything here on earth and my Uncle Jed said he'd take me in and uncle Jed was in the shoe business, I'd very like end up messing with shoes. If my father is in the creation business, I think it very likely I will at least dabble in it.

Want me to post some of my blueprints?

Jews say angels with God made it all

 

[Kenny_ms]

Jews say angels with God made it all

That's interesting.

Sounds like my kind of people.

Seriously though, I have no reason to believe the Angels didn't have a hand in creation, but would be more than willing to listen to arguments to the contrary.

 

[jasonc]

That's interesting.

Sounds like my kind of people.

Seriously though, I have no reason to believe the Angels didn't have a hand in creation, but would be more than willing to listen to arguments to the contrary.

For by him were all things made.him being jesus. We in the bible refers to whom god or an angel?in let us make man in our image.god spoke all others into being.

 

[Kenny_ms]

god spoke all others into being.

OK, lets take that out and start with it.

"Hey, John, I need a more red skinned one this time, here are the specs on that and can you get that to me in the next few minutes,... I'd like to get on to my next project sometime in the next day or so. It's not like I have eternity to mess with this, lol."

Did God speak that into being? In a way, absolutely. In affect, he said, "Let there be red skin man" just as he spoke light into being.

Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that is how it came off, it may well have been more like the "Zapped" it into being you are thinking, but still the scenario I chose is something to think about.

What exactly did he mean by 'speaking into being"? That's what needs to be proven. And FWIW, even if you can't prove it, I'd probably also lean towards the "Zap" idea more than anything else too, but I won't throw out other possibilities unless they are proven to my satisfaction very unlikely or untrue.

Gotta get some things done, unfortunately I can't just speak it done.

 

[jasonc]

OK, lets take that out and start with it.

"Hey, John, I need a more red skinned one this time, here are the specs on that and can you get that to me in the next few minutes,... I'd like to get on to my next project sometime in the next day or so. It's not like I have eternity to mess with this, lol."

Did God speak that into being? In a way, absolutely. In affect, he said, "Let there be red skin man" just as he spoke light into being.

Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that is how it came off, it may well have been more like the "Zapped" it into being you are thinking, but still the scenario I chose is something to think about.

What exactly did he mean by 'speaking into being"? That's what needs to be proven. And FWIW, even if you can't prove it, I'd probably also lean towards the "Zap" idea more than anything else too, but I won't throw out other possibilities unless they are proven to my satisfaction very unlikely or untrue.

Gotta get some things done, unfortunately I can't just speak it done.

Let there be light and there was light.let the earth bring forth trees bearing seeds of their kinds.speaking. ah jews. The yod and the hei .the hei being the breathe which we use to say things.the yod .it the smallest of letters yet it's from God. The letters are in this YHVH
so why would I not think that he spoke me into being and by his word I live?

 

[Stan1953]

It's simple, I just have no good reason to believe the very next step after we die, takes us to a spiritual realm. You apparently not only believe that but assume we all do and that's what caused the problem. Your "answer" seems to be no more than, "I believe it and that should be proof enough" when you must know, even though you may be right, that doesn't cut it around here, and that's a good thing so we don't go around believing anything that's told us.
Now that I know what's up, I simply disagree with your non proof that we go to a spiritual world after the first death. Also I will have to throw in (again) the fact that if Jesus was in the spiritual realm after his resurrection as you say he was, then why did he walk in our physical world? A world where, contrary to what you say, the "where" IS relevant and a world that CAN be measured on a GPS.
Again, we just disagree, and I was wanting some proof and it irritated me a bit that you wasted both our time when the only proof you seemed to have was that you believe that.
We'd probably best drop it as both our attitudes are getting a bit stinky on this

I actually gave all my reasons and scripture in the second post of here so if you don't accept that it's normal, on this site anyway, to provide a reason WITH scriptures. As you haven't done that and seem to be rather unprepared to explain what you believe, I guess there's nothing more for me to discuss with you.

 

[Stan1953]

you did say I believe exactly the same. I never said they weren't similar. only trying to say there has been some more revelation. besides there more then just one. probably one for each person.
but why I don't take the city literally.
that is talking about isreal? or the church? if isreal then how is it that its the new heavens and new earth is the same in the last chapters of the bible?

I'm sorry Jason but I don't understand this post either. Maybe it's your style, but IMO it is still incohesive at best, and I fail to see any points you are making. Maybe you can make some statements instead of framing everything as a question?
Thanks

 

[Stan1953]

True. Maybe it will be much vaster than now. There is no reason to assume that He will just create just one tiny planet, when He is capable of creating myriad vast multi dimensional universes. Eternity is a long time. Our Lord may create lots of interesting places to explore on our days off.
We will find out one day.

Again I really do try not to speculate about things that are NOT written. I don't know why God made this universe the size He did and yes even though it apparently has been expanding. I note from recent articles I've read that some scientist think it is slowing so much that it could stop very soon and just implode. Regardless, I look forward to the NEW heaven and earth. I do NOT think we will be Trekkers running around exploring new galaxies and boldly going where no man has gone before. ;)

 

[jasonc]

I'm sorry Jason but I don't understand this post either. Maybe it's your style, but IMO it is still incohesive at best, and I fail to see any points you are making. Maybe you can make some statements instead of framing everything as a question?
Thanks

does the bible contradict itself?
the Isiah chapter says the sun and moon exist , yet revalation 22 says there is no need of them. what is the reason for the sun in Isiah 66? its the shabat!. the sabath, so that means in the new age their is the sabaaths? ok we both say that isn't needed. so its a new style of worship. if revelation is talking about that as well then why would it not be also not literal?

the point is I don't see that in either chapter that all of it is literal. with the tree of life its shown to be more revealed in the last book and having more then one. one each side of the river yielding crops. ok that means a ton of them. whereas no mentioning fruit is in the bible on the tol in genesis. and only one.

interesting what I read on chabad on that. but well it doesn't really say what is revalant. I know one who would have the sources on that. StoveBolts
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/2835165/jewish/The-Singular-Tree.htm

Kenny that is close to what the yod in jewish thinking is.

 

[Michael74]

I note from recent articles I've read that some scientist think it is slowing so much...

Most scientists think expansion is accelerating due to dark energy. Its expansion decelerated for the first half of its existence due to gravity, then dark energy accelerated expansion as galaxies got too far away from each other for gravity to work as strongly as dark energy does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_universe

Regardless, its temporary. You are right that we don't know how vast the new creation will be.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I actually gave all my reasons and scripture in the second post of here so if you don't accept that it's normal, on this site anyway, to provide a reason WITH scriptures. As you haven't done that and seem to be rather unprepared to explain what you believe, I guess there's nothing more for me to discuss with you.

No, you have no proof and I never saw a single "reason/scripture" that remotely touched on that being a spiritual world and you never would point out to me just what you were seeing as proof, so no, it seems you cannot so there is nothing to discuss.

You say I didn't back up with scripture what we have always known things to be, as in physical, why would I? I have every reason to believe that world is the same as the one I'm in until proven differently, that is my proof, pick up a science book. That world as far as I know is like this one, no reason to believe otherwise. Are you next going to ask me to prove the earth isn't made of Green Jello? That would be you going out of the norm again of what we all know to be true so you would need to prove it was made from Green Jello, I have no need to prove it isn't because it's common knowledge and there is probably more books than you can read on the subject to verify that.

But, doesn't matter how much I reason here, it's clearly not going to work out. You think what you do, and apparently without any reason whatsoever and that's the way it's going to be. I honestly think that's a little weird but, hey, I can live with it, I've lived with much worse.

 

[Stan1953]

does the bible contradict itself?
the Isiah chapter says the sun and moon exist , yet revalation 22 says there is no need of them. what is the reason for the sun in Isiah 66? its the shabat!. the sabath, so that means in the new age their is the sabaaths? ok we both say that isn't needed. so its a new style of worship. if revelation is talking about that as well then why would it not be also not literal?

I don't see a contradiction. That new universe also doesn't have water other than what is in the river of life, so NEW, is NEW.

the point is I don't see that in either chapter that all of it is literal. with the tree of life its shown to be more revealed in the last book and having more then one. one each side of the river yielding crops. ok that means a ton of them. whereas no mentioning fruit is in the bible on the tol in genesis. and only one.

I'm not saying that everything in Revelation is literal, and over the past 45 years that I've read it, I learn something new all the time. Initally I would avoid Revelation because it was hard for me to understand. That is typical of the Bible in general. It takes time and contemplation to really get into it and learn everything. We never do learn EVERYTHING.

 

[Stan1953]

Most scientists think expansion is accelerating due to dark energy. Its expansion decelerated for the first half of its existence due to gravity, then dark energy accelerated expansion as galaxies got too far away from each other for gravity to work as strongly as dark energy does.
Regardless, its temporary. You are right that we don't know how vast the new creation will be.

and although it IS fascinating, it is not something I have any real interest in.

 

[Stan1953]

No, you have no proof and I never saw a single "reason/scripture" that remotely touched on that being a spiritual world and you never would point out to me just what you were seeing as proof, so no, it seems you cannot so there is nothing to discuss.

I have no proof of what? That Jesus spoke about a spiritual realm? I'm pretty sure the scriptures I cited do that but just denying it without explanation really doesn't work here Kenny.

You say I didn't back up with scripture what we have always known things to be, as in physical, why would I? I have every reason to believe that world is the same as the one I'm in until proven differently, that is my proof, pick up a science book. That world as far as I know is like this one, no reason to believe otherwise. Are you next going to ask me to prove the earth isn't made of Green Jello? That would be you going out of the norm again of what we all know to be true so you would need to prove it was made from Green Jello, I have no need to prove it isn't because it's common knowledge and there is probably more books than you can read on the subject to verify that.

We have always know the after life to be physical? Not in my world.
Where does this POV come from? Not scripture for sure, because it speaks a lot about spiritual realms and realities, about principalities and powers of darkness, about God being spirit and we having to worship Him in spirit. Eph 6:12 (NIV) John 4:24 (NIV)
Jesus has already stated that where He went no one could follow, so obviously it is NOT the same as this one. John 13:36 (NIV)

But, doesn't matter how much I reason here, it's clearly not going to work out. You think what you do, and apparently without any reason whatsoever and that's the way it's going to be. I honestly think that's a little weird but, hey, I can live with it, I've lived with much worse.

I really wish you would reason and not just deny what is clearly shown in scripture. I gave my reasons and you rejected them out of hand with NO reason or qualifications, so I guess you can move on to something else you agree with on this site.

 

[Kenny_ms]

We have always know the after life to be physical? Not in my world.

Where did you get that from? I didn't say that, I said I have no good reason to believe otherwise. Not you, not anyone but "I have no reason". And no one said it was physical beyond any doubt, it just has not been proven to me it is spiritual. First look it over good and see how you twisted my post to say something it absolutely did not. Once one starts going down that road to prove their point, I generally understand it to mean they have no proof and at that point, I'm dealing with nothing more than attitude. I read no further than that and you can have the last word here if it helps, but I've seen enough to know, this is fruitless and I don't really want to see the thread pulled so.....

 

[jasonc]

I don't see a contradiction. That new universe also doesn't have water other than what is in the river of life, so NEW, is NEW.



I'm not saying that everything in Revelation is literal, and over the past 45 years that I've read it, I learn something new all the time. Initally I would avoid Revelation because it was hard for me to understand. That is typical of the Bible in general. It takes time and contemplation to really get into it and learn everything. We never do learn EVERYTHING.

the new sun wont shine? we can mark time by god? or the sun. why would god destroy the sun? you do know that the sea one word isn't what the ancient world saw as the oceans?