Heaven Or Paradise?

[Stan1953]

where is without then ? the bible says in the greek literal rendered ylt(that is what they did most of the time that is why its hard to read. that for without the tree life? where is it. without means a location and the word right? isn't there so it can be outside the gates. literally

the tree of life is where in jewish commentary? If its already known to the jews then and now what it looked like then kindly show it? I can find jewish views on paradise and that is well the garden of eden and well jesus says that

he that overcometh shall I give the right to the tree of life in the garden with me. interesting. that is in the first few chapters of the book of revelation. I choose the most literal translation of the greek to the English for a good reason.

its not perfect either. never said it was.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_Literal_Translation
yet I present that challenged. being jewish in the flesh and I have buried kin and do the rites they have. I looked into their views of the afterlife. ie sheol, the messianic era. what happens after. what is paradise.
gan eden is the closest to paradise.

I'm sorry Jason, but you either need to slow down when posting or think it through, because this is way to incohesive for me to follow or respond to.

 

[Stan1953]

Kenny,
A lot of Christians assume that the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven and comes down to this earth. But that is not what is stated. It simply descends out of Heaven and hovers over the earth, since it will be the source of light for the New Earth (Rev 21:23,24)

The context is about the new earth so that is where the NEW Jerusalem comes down to. v10 pretty much shows it is one earth because John is taken to a high mountain over looking it.

 

[Stan1953]

Before Christ's death on the cross at Calvary, the souls of the dead went to Hades, a supernatural place somewhere in the heart of the earth. Hades has two compartments, the abode of the lost called in the Bible "torment," and the other side, the place of the saints of God called Paradise, and also referred to as "Abraham's Bosom."

It's a spiritual place, not a physical place, and Abraham's side is Paradise as Jesus pointed out. These are not two places, they are one. Yes Hades is the place where dead unbelievers went, but it is NOT part of Paradise, as Luke 16:23 shows. The language used is for the benefit of those that couldn't comprehend the meta-physical. It is a combination of metaphor and literal language.

When Jesus gave up His Spirit to death, He went into the Paradise side of Hades and "took captivity captive." This means He took all the souls of the saints who had died to that point to be with God the Father in Heaven. The Paradise side of Hades is now empty. The torment side today holds all souls of people who rejected Christ's salvation, and who have died to this point in human history. People who are saved by believing in Christ today, and who die, now go directly to God, the Father, in Heaven.
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40).

Now you're mixing up Eph 4 with something else. Eph 4 is not about after Jesus' death, it is about His earthly mission.
Jesus' body spend 3 days and nights in the grave/heart of the earth, not His spirit.

"Because You will not leave my soul in Hades, or allow Your Holy One to see decay" (Acts 2:27).
"Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" (Eph. 4:8-9).

and Jesus did NOT see decay or remain in His grave.

 

[Stan1953]

t
I am. if the others are here that are and post you will see it clearly. one has already.

I wouldn't be looking for it in THIS context.

 

[Kenny_ms]

NOT what was being discussed Kenny. Luke 16 and 23 is about AFTER the first death, not after the judgement or Jesus' return.

And?

I can keep up quit well with what we were discussing.

Why can't you answer the questions? Are you assuming I'm on board with the first death taking one to a spiritual realm? I'm not, hence the very reasonable questions to clear things up.

 

[The_Epsicle]

We seem to be getting into... actually I'm not really sure, this discussion has fractured into what the human body really is, end times prophecy, and for some reason now includes Hell. I'm going to clarify the point of debate to be "What do you guys think eternal life will be like based on scripture, regardless of where it is?"

Will it essentially be a never ending church service?

Will it be like before the Fall with the Garden of Eden?

Or will it be something else?

 

[Kenny_ms]

We seem to be getting into... actually I'm not really sure, this discussion has fractured into what the human body really is, end times prophecy, and for some reason now includes Hell. I'm going to clarify the point of debate to be "What do you guys think eternal life will be like based on scripture, regardless of where it is?"

Will it essentially be a never ending church service?

Will it be like before the Fall with the Garden of Eden?

Or will it be something else?

Somewhat like it is now but governed by a fair and just God, which will make a world of difference.

It could also be that so many things might be banned, it will put us right back in the Garden days but, I doubt it.

I don't think God will require the "never ending church" of us...he knows that would be way too much.

That's about all until I think about it more

 

[jasonc]

I'm sorry Jason, but you either need to slow down when posting or think it through, because this is way to incohesive for me to follow or respond to.

The tree of life .what would my dad be taught in the temple about it? I can find paradise,gehenna,sheol,etc in Jewish commentsry

 

[Michael74]

...the NEW heaven IMO is a new universe, not a new place where God resides, because He will reside in the NEW Jerusalem.

Yes, God will reside in New Jerusalem.

I was merely thinking of just how vast a universe our God created. The physical universe is at least 80 billion light years in diameter, and expanding daily. In addition, there are several spiritual heavens that we can't even begin to measure. All this for a temporary abode that will one day be rolled up like a carpet.

Might is be that the new creation is just as vast, with spiritual dimensions (heavens) as well as physical ones?

 

[jasonc]

80 light years? Our galaxy bigger then that

 

[Michael74]

Yeah, I forgot the billion. I edited my post. Thanks.

 

[iLOVE]

Question: "What is paradise? Is it different than Heaven?"

Answer: Paradise is a place of blessing where the righteous go after death. The word paradise is usually used as a synonym for “heaven” (Revelation 2:7).

When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used “paradise” as a synonym for “heaven.” The apostle Paul wrote of someone (probably himself) who “was caught up to paradise” (2 Corinthians 12:4). In this context, paradise obviously refers to heaven.

There has always been a separation of believers and unbelievers after death (Luke 16:19-31). The righteous have always gone to paradise; the wicked have always gone to hell. For right now, both paradise and hell are “temporary holding places” until the day when Jesus Christ comes back to judge the world based on whether or not individuals have believed in Him. The first resurrection is of believers who will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive rewards based on meritorious service to Him. The second resurrection will be that of unbelievers who will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment of God. At that point, all will be sent to their eternal destination—the wicked to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15), and the righteous to a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21—22).

There are cases in which paradise can refer to the Garden of Eden, such in the Douay-Rheims translation of Genesis 3:8, which speaks of Adam and Eve hiding “amidst the trees of paradise.” The context of the word will determine whether it refers to heaven or Eden.


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/paradise.html#ixzz3d2SuPmum

 

[dianegcook]

Heaven is where ever God is.
Ecc.12:6,7
The dust shall return to earth, and the spirit shall RETURN unto God Who gave it.

1Thess.4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING with Him.

Absent from the body, present with the Lord.

Rev.21:2,3
New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven.
And He will dwell with them. And they shall be His people, AND GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, and be their God.

In paradise, there is a gulf, one would be on either side when one does. Imho

 

[Stan1953]

And?
I can keep up quit well with what we were discussing.
Why can't you answer the questions? Are you assuming I'm on board with the first death taking one to a spiritual realm? I'm not, hence the very reasonable questions to clear things up.

Well then please do so.
I have answered but for some reason you refuse to accept my answer?
I am not sure what your POV is as you have stated much, You just keep asking the same question. Do you not think Jesus was depicting a spiritual realm in Luke 16? Do you think this was actually a physical realm?

 

[Stan1953]

The tree of life .what would my dad be taught in the temple about it? I can find paradise,gehenna,sheol,etc in Jewish commentsry

OK, so what is your point? We were talking about the TOL in the New Jerusalem being the same or like the one in Gen 2.

 

[Stan1953]

Yes, God will reside in New Jerusalem.
I was merely thinking of just how vast a universe our God created. The physical universe is at least 80 billion light years in diameter, and expanding daily. In addition, there are several spiritual heavens that we can't even begin to measure. All this for a temporary abode that will one day be rolled up like a carpet.
Might is be that the new creation is just as vast, with spiritual dimensions (heavens) as well as physical ones?

Yes, it is vast now, but we're not sure how big it will actually be then. For one thing, there will be no seas on the New Earth (Rev 21:1) and IMO, no animals. For the most part we know very little about the future, which is also in keeping with our faith walk and how God works. He takes care of tomorrow. James 4:15

 

[Kenny_ms]

Well then please do so.
I have answered but for some reason you refuse to accept my answer?
I am not sure what your POV is as you have stated much, You just keep asking the same question. Do you not think Jesus was depicting a spiritual realm in Luke 16? Do you think this was actually a physical realm?

It's simple, I just have no good reason to believe the very next step after we die, takes us to a spiritual realm. You apparently not only believe that but assume we all do and that's what caused the problem. Your "answer" seems to be no more than, "I believe it and that should be proof enough" when you must know, even though you may be right, that doesn't cut it around here, and that's a good thing so we don't go around believing anything that's told us.

Now that I know what's up, I simply disagree with your non proof that we go to a spiritual world after the first death. Also I will have to throw in (again) the fact that if Jesus was in the spiritual realm after his resurrection as you say he was, then why did he walk in our physical world? A world where, contrary to what you say, the "where" IS relevant and a world that CAN be measured on a GPS.

Again, we just disagree, and I was wanting some proof and it irritated me a bit that you wasted both our time when the only proof you seemed to have was that you believe that.

We'd probably best drop it as both our attitudes are getting a bit stinky on this

 

[Michael74]

Yes, it is vast now, but we're not sure how big it will actually be then.

True. Maybe it will be much vaster than now. There is no reason to assume that He will just create just one tiny planet, when He is capable of creating myriad vast multi dimensional universes. Eternity is a long time. Our Lord may create lots of interesting places to explore on our days off.

We will find out one day.

 

[jasonc]

OK, so what is your point? We were talking about the TOL in the New Jerusalem being the same or like the one in Gen 2.

you did say I believe exactly the same. I never said they weren't similar. only trying to say there has been some more revelation. besides there more then just one. probably one for each person.

but why I don't take the city literally.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord

that is talking about isreal? or the church? if isreal then how is it that its the new heavens and new earth is the same in the last chapters of the bible?

 

[Kenny_ms]

True. Maybe it will be much vaster than now. There is no reason to assume that He will just create just one tiny planet, when He is capable of creating myriad vast multi dimensional universes. Eternity is a long time. Our Lord may create lots of interesting places to explore on our days off.

We will find out one day.

Agreed, and who's to say we won't help with that creation?

I've kicked back in thought at times and think how reasonable would it have been for God to say to the Angels, "Here is the plan and I want you, you and you, as you are the best at this to submit some designs for the animals I'm going to put in the Garden with this man and woman. No need to name them, that'll be his responsibility"

And things like that. Sky's the limit.