Heb 10:14 teaches eternal security

[Butch5]

OK. Give me your best verse that plainly teaches that one can lose salvation, and I'll show you that it doesn't.


And...11:29 doesn't mention promises. It specifically mentions GIFTS.

In fact, NO WHERE in Scripture are promises described as gifts.


Since 11:29 isn't about promises, but ACTUAL gifts, your analysis is incorrect.


OK. Show me EXACTLY where Paul "explained that gifts that he was talking about" in ch 11.

I said this:
"Sure. The gifts are based on believing. So what? Once given, they are irrevocable. There is NO condition on being irrevocable, as you're tying to SPIN IT."

Didn't you read my comment? I said "the gifts are based...". I said nothing about promises. Why do you consider promises to be gifts??


No one has shown that. It's been claimed, sure. But not shown.

I said this:
"I see it very clearly. God's gifts are irrevocable. Once given, He will NEVER revoke.

God's promises are irrevocable to Abraham. God swore an oath to Abraham, that's why His promises are irrevocable.

These aren't promises that are irrevocable. That is unreasonable."

There is NOTHING in the context that shows that ANY promise is a gift. Gifts are gifts, 3 of which Paul specifically noted.


So what? The Bible NEVER describes any promise of God as a gift, or favor. You've got no point.


Well, guess what!! Eternal life is a favor as well. Rom 6:23. And God's FAVORS are irrevocable.


None of this is relevant, since the Bible never describes any promise as a favor/gift.

It's all relevant. If you choose to hang your argument on a word that isn't even in the Greek texts It won't surprise me. As I said in the first post, there's no point in addressing these arguments. Those who hold the OSAS position will reject anything no matter what it is. The word "gifts" is not in the Greek texts, the word "charisma" is. You see this is one of the problems with English interpretations. The translators interpret too much. A little more translation and a little less interpretation and English speakers would have a much better understanding of the Scriptures.

You're argument that Paul is referring back to something five to eight chapters earlier rather than the immediate context shows that what you're claiming is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

Keep reading:

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-31

Please read to the end of the Chapter, for a contextual understanding.

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:35-39
JLB

So, if 10:14 doesn't speak directly of being perfected forever as an issue of eternal security, just what does "being perfected forever" mean to you?

 

[FreeGrace]

Amen, it refers to believers.

Those who have believed "have been perfected forever". So your challenge is to explain how one who has been perfected forever ends up in the lake of fire. This should be interesting, if you actually do provide an explanation.

Are those who believe for a while, then fall away, still somehow believers?

The Bible calls them apostates. Why all the resistance to what God's Words says?

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15
JLB

Please show me in this passage where Jesus taught that those who fall away from the faith lose salvation. Since this is the passage that you keep defaulting to in defense of your claim, where did Jesus teach that falling from the faith results in loss of salvation?

 

[FreeGrace]

It's all relevant.

No, because you've confused two words: promises and gifts. You've replaced the biblical word "gifts" in Rom 11:29 with "promises", which does NOT occur in that verse. In fact, that word doesn't occur anywhere in ch 11.

In fact, we find the word "promises" ONLY in Rom 9:4, so not even in the context of 11:29, which is NOT about promises but about God's gifts and calling. Neither of which are described as promises.

If you choose to hang your argument on a word that isn't even in the Greek texts It won't surprise me.

This is simply ludicrous. What word am I arguing for that "isn't even in the Greek texts"?? Since EVERY Greek translator (scholar) has translated charisma as "gifts", I'm quite sure that is the meaning of the word.

Please don't ignore the FACT that Paul described 3 specific things as charisma of God before he penned 11:29. All 3 of these things are related to 11:29.

As I said in the first post, there's no point in addressing these arguments.

Because you really don't have one.

Those who hold the OSAS position will reject anything no matter what it is.

Pure cop-out.

The word "gifts" is not in the Greek texts, the word "charisma" is.

You have no argument here. Paul specifically described 3 things that are FAVORS or GIFTS of God:
1. spiritual gifts (favors) in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

All these are FAVORS or GIFTS of God. And Paul said that the FAVORS or GIFTS of God are irrevocable.

So it simply doesn't matter how one chooses to argue; whether gifts or favors. Paul specifically noted 3 of them before he said that they are irrevocable.

 

[Butch5]

No, because you've confused two words: promises and gifts. You've replaced the biblical word "gifts" in Rom 11:29 with "promises", which does NOT occur in that verse. In fact, that word doesn't occur anywhere in ch 11.

In fact, we find the word "promises" ONLY in Rom 9:4, so not even in the context of 11:29, which is NOT about promises but about God's gifts and calling. Neither of which are described as promises.


This is simply ludicrous. What word am I arguing for that "isn't even in the Greek texts"?? Since EVERY Greek translator (scholar) has translated charisma as "gifts", I'm quite sure that is the meaning of the word.

Please don't ignore the FACT that Paul described 3 specific things as charisma of God before he penned 11:29. All 3 of these things are related to 11:29.


Because you really don't have one.


Pure cop-out.


You have no argument here. Paul specifically described 3 things that are FAVORS or GIFTS of God:
1. spiritual gifts (favors) in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

All these are FAVORS or GIFTS of God. And Paul said that the FAVORS or GIFTS of God are irrevocable.

So it simply doesn't matter how one chooses to argue; whether gifts or favors. Paul specifically noted 3 of them before he said that they are irrevocable.

You still take the passages out of context. If you read the entire book, rather than grab passages from here and there, you'll find that Paul has changed subjects by the time he wrote 11:29. You're trying to grab things he was saying previously and wrap them into what he's saying in 11:29. That's not exegesis, that eisegesis. You also broke of the very sentence that you quoted. Note how 11:29 reads.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Rom. 11:29 KJV)

Notice it says the gifts and calling. This shows that Paul is referring to what he just said. In chapter 9 he explained the calling of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God promised to give Abraham all the land he could see. Do you know what that was? It was a gift. He promised to make Abraham a great nation. Do you know what that was? It was a gift. God promised that He would make him the Father of many nations. Do you know what that was? it was a gift. He promised that all of the nations would be blessed through his seed. Do you know what that was? It was a gift. All of these things God gave Abraham were gifts.

 

[chessman]

You're trying to grab things he was saying previously and wrap them into what he's saying in 11:29.

And the problem is???

In chapter 9 he explained the calling of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Umm, you are grabing things he was saying previuosly and wraping them into what he's saying in 11:29. What did you call that?
Or does that only apply to someone else?

BTW: eisegesis is interpreting ones own ideas into the Text, not reading the author's previous ideas into the Text.

All of these things God gave Abraham were gifts.

Are any of God's gifts revocable? Any gift, to Abraham or to any of His other people?

 

[JLB]

So, if 10:14 doesn't speak directly of being perfected forever as an issue of eternal security, just what does "being perfected forever" mean to you?

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:11-14


It means His one sacrifice is sufficient to bring to completion every man that comes to Him by faith, to walk out the process of transformation, through the renewing of the mind, which is exactly what the phrase... those who are being sanctified means.

... who are being sanctified... denotes a process; a process of being sanctified.

A process of being transformed into His image.

A process of becoming a son of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:11-14

It means His one sacrifice is sufficient to bring to completion every man that comes to Him by faith

Why add words to Scripture that aren't there?? The verse does NOT say anything about "bringing to completion". It clearly says "He has perfected (completed) forever. The word "perfected" is in the perfect tense, meaning an action in the past with ongoing results. In this case, FOREVER RESULTS. This alone refutes your theory of loss of salvation.

to walk out the process of transformation, through the renewing of the mind, which is exactly what the phrase... those who are being sanctified means.

... who are being sanctified... denotes a process; a process of being sanctified.

A process of being transformed into His image.

Right. The last half of the verse speaks to spiritual growth.

But the first half refutes your notion.

 

[JLB]

Why add words to Scripture that aren't there?? The verse does NOT say anything about "bringing to completion". It clearly says "He has perfected (completed) forever. The word "perfected" is in the perfect tense, meaning an action in the past with ongoing results. In this case, FOREVER RESULTS. This alone refutes your theory of loss of salvation.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:11-14


You asked me what "being perfected forever" means to "me".


It means His one sacrifice is sufficient to bring to completion every man that comes to Him by faith, to walk out the process of transformation, through the renewing of the mind, which is exactly what the phrase... those who are being sanctified means.

... who are being sanctified... denotes a process; a process of being sanctified.

A process of being transformed into His image.

A process of becoming a son of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12


"those who are being sanctified" is the key phrase that teaches us that His one sacrifice is sufficient to bring about our completion
[perfection] of the transformation process, without "additional sacrifices" being made, unlike the law, which required many sacrifices being made, year after year.

That is the point the author is making.

We don't need many sacrifices, but His one sacrifice is sufficient for any and all our sins that we may commit for the rest of our life, as we come to God and confess our sin, we will be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness, while we are being sanctified.





JLB

 

[chessman]

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12

Do you think John 1:12's "them" is speaking of Jesus Christ (Messiah) believers such as you and me?

 

[JLB]

Do you think John 1:12's "them" is speaking of Jesus Christ (Messiah) believers such as you and me?

"But as many" refers to whosoever, not just Jews.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13

Those who are born of God, "born again", are given the right or power to become, sons of God.



JLB

 

[chessman]

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13

Those who are born of God, "born again", are given the right or power to become, sons of God.

When were these whosoevers born again and given authority by the will of God?

When they received Him.
Or
When they are resurrected and judged?

 

[JLB]

When were these whosoevers born again and given authority by the will of God?

When they received Him.
Or
When they are resurrected and judged?

They were given the power to become sons of God, when they received Him... when they believed.


Back to Hebrews 10 -

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39


JLB

 

[chessman]

They were given the power to become sons of God, when they received Him... when they believed.

Cool. Thanks.

Last question on John 1:

How many were given the power/authority to become sons of God when they received Him?

As many as received Him?
Or
Some of them as received Him?

 

[JLB]

Cool. Thanks.

Last question on John 1:

How many were given the power/authority to become sons of God when they received Him?

As many as received Him?
Or
Some of them as received Him?

As many as received Him, were given the right to become, sons of God.



JLB

 

[chessman]

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39

And oh brother, aren't we blessed not to be of them that rejected the Law of Moses but (on the other hand) of them that believe in Him (the Messiah, Jesus Christ) to the saving of our souls. Every last one of them there souls.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel (those that rejected the Law of Moses and their deliever) until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and so all Israel will be saved!

 

[chessman]

Those who are born of God, "born again", are given the right or power to become, sons of God.

Thus we pray to "our Father" which art in Heaven. Just as Jesus taught.

A process of becoming a son of God.

Or do you pray to the father which art in Heaven who has given us a process.

 

[FreeGrace]

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:11-14

You asked me what "being perfected forever" means to "me".

It means His one sacrifice is sufficient to bring to completion every man that comes to Him by faith, to walk out the process of transformation, through the renewing of the mind, which is exactly what the phrase... those who are being sanctified means.

... who are being sanctified... denotes a process; a process of being sanctified.

A process of being transformed into His image.

A process of becoming a son of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12

"those who are being sanctified" is the key phrase that teaches us that His one sacrifice is sufficient to bring about our completion
[perfection] of the transformation process, without "additional sacrifices" being made, unlike the law, which required many sacrifices being made, year after year.

That is the point the author is making.

No, his point involves both positional sanctification and progressive sanctification. In the first part of the verse, the phrase "He has perfected forever" is in the perfect tense, denoting action in past time with on going results; in this case on going results FOREVER. That is eternal security. The second part of the verse has the phrase "those who are being sanctified". This refers to spiritual growth of the believer.

The phrase "has perfected forever" proves eternal security. You've not shown otherwise.

 

[Mustard Socks]

If God, on the basis of foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification and glorification, has set in motion the redemptive plan and will bring it to pass, who is more powerful than God?

Salvation Is Irrevocable, Part 1

Romans 8:31-32

 

[gr8grace3]

No, his point involves both positional sanctification and progressive sanctification. In the first part of the verse, the phrase "He has perfected forever" is in the perfect tense, denoting action in past time with on going results; in this case on going results FOREVER. That is eternal security. The second part of the verse has the phrase "those who are being sanctified". This refers to spiritual growth of the believer.

The phrase "has perfected forever" proves eternal security. You've not shown otherwise.

FreeGrace. You KNOW I value your teaching. But I just don't see progressive sanctification in this verse.

I see glorification sanctification(perfected forever) and justification sanctification( those who will be glorified are those who are BEING justified.)

Can you break it down a bit for me, to help me see progressive sanctification?

Simply, I see ," Those who are perfected forever are those who are being positionally sanctified."

I see 3 sanctification's in the bible. Glorification sanctification,positional sanctification and on-going sanctification.

In 10:14 I see glorification sanctification(perfected forever) and positional sanctification(being sanctified/passive voice.)