dadof10 said:
Then what do these quotes mean if not that the remnent of their "burning" ascends FOREVER?
"No, not at all and in fact it substantiates the view that once the "fire is out" that is once the wicked are no longer in the presence of that which causes the flames, the Lamb and the Holy Angels, their "torment" ascends forever."
"It is fairly obvious from scripture that the "light" that is provided emanates from the Lamb, Jesus. It is that light that destroys those who know they are unworthy to be apart of it."
"The torment is forever (as in permanent), not the torment "ing."
In relation to the fact that they have already been explained to you? Just what they say.
Then maybe you could explain to me how you think I took Rev 21:23 and Rev 7:15 out of context then. Rev 21:23 says specifically that the Lamb, Jesus, is the Light of the city of New Jerusalem and because of that there is no need for a sun or moon. Now certainly the sun provides 'direct' light and the moon provides 'reflected' light.
You stated I took something out of context and I'd appreciate you showing me how I did that.
Here is the position you are supposed to be defending:
"It is fairly obvious from scripture that the "light" that is provided emanates from the Lamb, Jesus. It is that light that destroys those who know they are unworthy to be apart of it."
"Being that they are no longer in the presences of Jesus means that they are no longer "in the light" and it is that light that sustains life."
As far as I can understand you, you are saying the Damned are burned up and cease to exist because they are in the Presence of "the light of Christ". Here are the passages you claim uphold that position.
"Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
"Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."
Where does it say that that those not in the "light of Christ" cease to exist? Please show me how these verses bolster your case.
I've shown you several verses that confirm the point that those outside of Christ's will are in "darkness."
Again you are misunderstanding a clear metephor. The word "darkness" here and elsewhere in Scripture does not mean annihilation. Remember, this is the point you are trying to make.How can someone "walk in darkness" if "darkness" is annihilation? Maybe it will clear it up if we look at other verses that use the same metephor:
"Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God. (1Corinthians (RSV) 4)"
"If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. (1John (RSV) 1)"
These are clear references to sin as in Jn. 8 above. Darkness refers to remaining in sin, not being annihilated.
So what happens to those that "remain" in darkness when they are exposed to the light of the Lord? In a literal sense on earth their "old man" is burned up and created new in the image of Christ. What happens if that conversion never on earth happens? What would happen to them once they finally see the glorious presence of the Lord and are not prepared for it?
Darkness BTW is metaphorical not for just being in sin but being outside the will of God.
2Sa 22:29 For thou [art] my lamp, O LORD: and the LORD will lighten my darkness.
1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Decisions are permanent? They can have permanent CONSEQUENCES, but they are not, in and of themselves, permanent.
Yes, decision are permanent. Obviously you've never said, "My decision if final" to anyone.
With all due respect, this is one of the most absurd, illogical analogies I have read on these forums. It begs SO MANY questions, I'll only list four:
Because it makes so much sense?
1) Your whole house of cards either stands or falls on whether we remember these punishments. How are we to remember the "punishment" forever if we cease to exist? Does God remember? Does He keep reliving it over and over? What does that say about His compassion?
Haven't you heard? The "wicked" are resurrected after the 1,000 year millennium to be judged by the righteous.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
2) You assume we remember all the punishments in our lives. What about the ones we forget? Are those still "eternal"?
Of course. There are beatings I received as a child as a result of some sort of punishment I received that has long been forgotten.
3) All punishments are simply events in a person's life. Are all events eternal, also? What about joyful, sorrowful, luminous, or glorious events in our lives? Are all remembered events eternal?
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
I am certain that in the new heaven and new earth that "former things" such as sorrow, crying, pain and death will indeed pass away.
4) Honestly, do you think this is what Jesus meant when He said that the wicked will "go into eternal punishment"?...Really?
Yep.
No, not really. If it ever does, I'll start questioning my sanity
.
Sorry to hear that.
I don't have much time anymore. I'll have more time after the first of the year to respond. This topic is getting old anyway and it's not what I want to think about at this joyous time of year. I'll give you the last word.
God Bless and Merry Christmas to you and your family,
Thanks Mark but I don't celebrate Christmas...Christ was born is September.
