Hell Fire

[duval]

I wrote: "I'm not aware that the Bible makes any difference in sin except that of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."
GABREIL ALI ANSWERED: "Scripture that PAIDION quoted in another thread which seems relevant": Jn.19:11 "---he who delivered me to you has the greater sin." I accept that. I believe there is evidence that there are degrees of punishment. My point however is that all sin results in spiritual death and for all eternity unless remitted by the blood of Christ.

 

[nadab]

nadab wrote:

So, in what sense do the wicked "go away into everlasting punishment" ? Although most translations use the word "punishment" at Matthew 25:46, the basic meaning of the Greek word ko´la·sin is "checking the growth of trees", or pruning, cutting off needless branches. So while the sheeplike ones receive everlasting life, the unrepentant goatlike ones suffer "everlasting punishment", being forever cut off from life.



Which versions use a word other than "punishment" for the word "kolasis"? The 15 versions I have all translate the word "punishment". Would it be ONE version, the New World Translation?

Hello dadof10,

Many different Bibles use the word "punishment" at Matthew 25:46, following the leadings of the King James Bible. And indeed, it is a punishment from God to be dead forever, without any hope of a resurrection, which is also the same as the "second death" at Revelation 20:13. However, the Greek interlinear, The New Testament in the Original Greek, by noted scholars B.F.Westcott and F.J.A.Hort, reads literally of Matthew 25:46, "And will go off these into lopping off (Greek ko´la·sin) everlasting, the but righteous (ones) into life everlasting."

Another Greek interlinear, The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, reads: "And shall go away these into a cutting-off (ko´la·sin) agelasting; the and just ones into life everlasting." Thus, those that God deems as unworthy of life everlasting, are then "cut-off", receiving everlasting death.

The Emphatic Diaglott footnote for this verse reads: "That is, in the fire mentioned in verse 41. The Common Version , and in many modern ones, render kolasin aionioon, everlasting punishment, conveying the idea, as generally interpreted, of basimos, torment. Kolasin in its various forms only occurs in three other places in the New Testament - Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9; 1 John 4:18. It is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. The Greeks write - "The charioteer (kalazei) restrains his fiery steeds". 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment; - hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word....The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death."(italics theirs)

Thus, the New World Translation has correctly rendered it as "cutting-off", in agreement with the original meaning of the Greek word kolasin.

 

[duval]

RND I gave you the scripture answer but you refuse to respond except by some trick question. Stay with the scripture please. Ps.139:7 reads: "WHERE CAN I GO FROM YOUR SPIRIT? OR WHERE CAN I FLEE FROLM YOUR PRESENCE?" Please deal with this!

RND wrote of Lk.16:31---''Question. Who rose from the dead?'' Answer: No one!!!

 

[RND]

LOL...So the "smoke of their torment" is eternal, but their souls aren't. God "burns up" the soul and the REMNENT (whatever form that takes) is somehow eternal? LOL...OK.

Nope snd that's the clear point that I'm trying to make. It is being in the presence of God, the Angels and the Lamb that cause "torment" by simply being in the presence of Holiness.

Great! Here we go again. I NEVER claimed God is EVER darkness or not light. Could you please focus.

Then maybe you could explain to me how you think I took Rev 21:23 and Rev 7:15 out of context then. Rev 21:23 says specifically that the Lamb, Jesus, is the Light of the city of New Jerusalem and because of that there is no need for a sun or moon. Now certainly the sun provides 'direct' light and the moon provides 'reflected' light.

You stated I took something out of context and I'd appreciate you showing me how I did that.

Not one of these verses claim "once out of the "light of Christ" the soul ceases to exist". NOT ONE. God is light. We agree. Now, do you have ANY verses that even suggest that (read carefully) the soul ceases to exist when removed from the light of Christ?

Let's look at this logically. If Jesus is light and we abide in that light what happens without that light and what does one abide in there? Darkness.

Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jesus is the Light of the world. Without that light is darkness and there is no life. The opposite of life is what? Death. The verses I quoted say the same thing. Life abounds in the light not in darkness.

No, they aren't. They are in the same place (state) that Satan is.

The Bible says that only Satan, the beast and the false prophet are "tormented" in the lake of fire. Everyone else thrown into the "lake" is where they experience the "second death."

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

How can this "torment" last longer (forever) than the tormented? If the person who is tormented is eventually annihilated, how does the "punishment" last longer than the person does?

Because the decision of the wicked is "permanent." The decision they make is final. That decision lasts forever.

The punishment and the "punishing" end at the same time.

I respectfully disagree. In the example I gave above the "punishment" of having the car taken away for the prom last a lifetime. The "punishing" does not, unless of course you were never to allow your child never to drive again.

In your example above, does the memory of the event last longer than my kid's life, longer than his memory?

What will happen to your kid's memory when he dies?

Where do you get the notion that the memory of a punishment is the punishment itself? This is just silly semantics disguised as "theology".

Not at all. Whenever we remember the "punishing" we received as kids during as the result of "punishment" we got it is always remembering the "punishment." For example, when I was 9 and my brother was 12 my mom caught him smoking a cigarette. As "punishment" she made him smoke a huge, nasty cigar that caused him to get sick and vomit and puke a lot. She made me watch. To this very day nearly forty years after the fact we remember this brutal and unforgettable lesson in why one shouldn't smoke cigarettes. Now granted, we laugh like hyenas whenever this story is relived but we remember the punishment vividly.

But here's the kicker. My mom isn't still "punishing" my brother by making him smoke a huge, nasty cigar that caused him to get sick and forcing me to watch. The "punishing" is long over but the "punishment" is still remembered.

Is any of this getting through and beginning to make sense to you?

 

[RND]

RND I gave you the scripture answer but you refuse to respond except by some trick question. Stay with the scripture please. Ps.139:7 reads: "WHERE CAN I GO FROM YOUR SPIRIT? OR WHERE CAN I FLEE FROLM YOUR PRESENCE?" Please deal with this!

Oh, I've dealt with this many times. This Psalm was written by David. Would you consider David saved or unsaved? Righteous or unrighteous?

Obviously being in the "presence" of the Lord is only for those that are saved and righteous.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, [so] drive [them] away: as wax melteth before the fire, [so] let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

BTW duval still waiting for you direct answer: yes or no? Oh, one more thing:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

RND wrote of Lk.16:31---''Question. Who rose from the dead?'' Answer: No one!!!

See Revelation 1:5 duval. Who is the only one that has risen from the dead?

 

[duval]

Get to you later RND, have "patience."

 

[dadof10]

Many different Bibles use the word "punishment" at Matthew 25:46, following the leadings of the King James Bible.

Hi Nadab,

Not all translations follow the KJV. We Catholics had the Bible for 1500 years before the KJV was written, so most of the translations I use consider it to be corrupt also, but, I'm sure, for different reasons :yes

And indeed, it is a punishment from God to be dead forever, without any hope of a resurrection, which is also the same as the "second death" at Revelation 20:13.

In context, I don't see Matt. 25:46 referring simply to death, especially when you factor in your JW doctrine of annihilation. For it to be a punishment, the person in question must at least KNOW it's happening. How can annihilation be a punishment when the Damned have no awareness?

However, the Greek interlinear, The New Testament in the Original Greek, by noted scholars B.F.Westcott and F.J.A.Hort, reads literally of Matthew 25:46, "And will go off these into lopping off (Greek ko´la·sin) everlasting, the but righteous (ones) into life everlasting."

I don't have a copy of this, so cannot comment. I suppose the only thing I can say with certainty is that every 20th century Biblical scholar (except the JW's) don't translate this verse the way these two 19th century scholars do, not even other annihiliationists like the UR people or the SDA's. That has to say something.

Another Greek interlinear, The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, reads: "And shall go away these into a cutting-off (ko´la·sin) agelasting; the and just ones into life everlasting." Thus, those that God deems as unworthy of life everlasting, are then "cut-off", receiving everlasting death.

The Emphatic Diaglott footnote for this verse reads: "That is, in the fire mentioned in verse 41. The Common Version , and in many modern ones, render kolasin aionioon, everlasting punishment, conveying the idea, as generally interpreted, of basimos, torment. Kolasin in its various forms only occurs in three other places in the New Testament - Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9; 1 John 4:18. It is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. The Greeks write - "The charioteer (kalazei) restrains his fiery steeds". 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment; - hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word....The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death."(italics theirs)

This I do have access to. First of all, it strikes me as comical that this is translated using the Vatican manuscripts and JW's accept it as accurate. Last time I checked the Watchtower, you guys thought the Vatican was the tool of Satan himself. I guess we did OK making accurate copies, saving and protecting them through all the persecutions, wars, Dark and Middle ages, transmitting and translating them for over 1800 years until these three scholars came along and straightened us out on the "proper" interpretation. :biglol

Secondly, the first line of the footnotes seems to debunk your own view. Mr. Wilson says for the words "cutting -off", "That is, in the fire mentioned in verse 41". So the person is cut-off into the fire, which assumes punishment.

Third, the part that you elipsed out is this: "The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis." Quite subjective, I see why you cut it out (pun intended) He is assuming a lot, here, namely that this is an antithesis. Because Jesus used the word "life", doesn't mean the other word has to mean the opposite. The sentence is simply conveying Truth, the wicked go into eternal punishment, the righteous into eternal life. If Matthew wanted to convey "death" why didn't He simply use the Greek word for death?

Thus, the New World Translation has correctly rendered it as "cutting-off", in agreement with the original meaning of the Greek word kolasin.

I'm sure the hunderds of 19th and 20th century scholars that translate the word as "punishment" would disagree with you. The NWT is ONLY used by JW's because it is so innacurate. No other church accepts it. As I said before, not even people who agree with your take on the doctrine of annihilation will accept this translation of the word or the NWT as accurate.

God Bless, Mark

 

[St Francis]

Hell lasts forever because your spirit is immortal. Thats it thats all.

This may sound strange but I've got a point to make.
Do animals have spirit?
Are their spirit "immortal"?
What happen when animals die? Do they go to heaven or hell?

Animals have souls. The soul is the animating force of the body. All living things have an animating force. (In fact, the Latin word for soul is "anima", from which we get the word "animation".) But only man has a spirit that will return to God after death.

 

[duval]

RND on Ps.139 wrote: "Oh, I've dealt with this many times---" Well, RND, if "many times" you should have learned the truth by now. God is indeed patient with those who mock His Word. He even describes some as "ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth." I have shown from Ps.68:2 and Rev.14:10,11 its in His "presence", one cannot escape from His "presence", the wicked are there, the Holy angels and the Lamb and in that "presence" the smoke of their (note that word their) torment goes up forever and that the wicked being tormented have no rest day and night forever!! Perish in Ps.68:2 and any related verses does not mean anihilation. Want to t ry? Go for it!
What's your point with Jn.3:13?
On Lk.16:31 you asked me "Who rose from the dead?" In the context of Lk.16 my answer was "No one."

 

[duval]

RND on Ps.139 wrote: "Oh, I've dealt with this many times---" Well, RND, if "many times" you should have learned the truth by now. God is indeed patient with those who mock His Word. He even describes some as "ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth." I have shown from Ps.68:2 and Rev.14:10,11 its in His "presence", one cannot escape from His "presence", the wicked are there, the Holy angels and the Lamb and in that "presence" the smoke of their (note that word their) torment goes up forever and that the wicked being tormented have no rest day and night forever!! Perish in Ps.68:2 and any related verses does not mean anihilation. Want to t ry? Go for it!
What's your point with Jn.3:13?
On Lk.16:31 you asked me "Who rose from the dead?" In the context of Lk.16 my answer was "No one."

 

[nadab]

Hello dadof10,
It is indeed a "punishment" to be dead forever. Please consider 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, whereby Jesus, at his "revelation", is spoken of as "bringing vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus", with Paul now saying that "these very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction" or everlasting death, everlasting "cutting-off" in life. (“eternal punishment in destruction,†Catholic Douay.)

Some twenty years ago, John M. Olin, Professor of Jurisprudence and Public Policy at Fordham University, called the "death penalty...our hardest punishment. It is irrevocable: it ends the existence of those punished, instead temporarily imprisoning them."(1986 Harvard Law Review, article The Ultimate Punishment: A Defense) Thus, death is considered as a punishment by the judicial system.

The Emphatic Diaglott concluded the footnote with "the righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting-off from life , or death." At 2 Peter 2:9, this interlinear reads: "knows Lord pious ones out of temptation to rescue, unjust ones but for a day of judgment being cut-off (Greek kolazo) to be kept". Kolazo is also rendered as "punish" at Acts 4:21 and "restraint"(Greek kolasis) at 1 John 4:18.

To torment individuals in a "hell fire" goes contrary to God's justice and love.(1 John 4:8) People imitate the god they serve. It is not surprising that some national groups and individuals have had such a mindset to torture ones before their death. If the God of the Bible were to send people to a "hell fire", then that would make him to be a liar and hypocrite, having already said some 2,500 years ago that burning people in a fire was an "abomination" and "sin".(Jer 32:35)

Of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Jude wrote: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."(King James Bible) The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyedâ€Â; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.

Thus everlasting death is an "eternal punishment" for the wicked, without any hope of ever being resurrected. Jesus, in speaking at Matthew 25:46, said that these ones, "goats", would be ' cut-off ' (Greek ko´la·sin ) forever from life or everlastingly, never existing again,(Matt 13:40-42) as when pruning the branches off a tree. It is just as God told Adam following his disobedience: "For dust you are and to dust you will return."(Gen 3:19) Adam returned to the same state of non-existence before he was created, "dust", being "cut-off" from life forever.

 

[RND]

RND on Ps.139 wrote: "Oh, I've dealt with this many times---" Well, RND, if "many times" you should have learned the truth by now. God is indeed patient with those who mock His Word. He even describes some as "ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth." I have shown from Ps.68:2 and Rev.14:10,11 its in His "presence", one cannot escape from His "presence", the wicked are there, the Holy angels and the Lamb and in that "presence" the smoke of their (note that word their) torment goes up forever and that the wicked being tormented have no rest day and night forever!! Perish in Ps.68:2 and any related verses does not mean anihilation. Want to t ry? Go for it!

.

So then are the "wicked" burning and being tormented in front of Jesus and the Angels? Jesus and the Angels are in hell too?

C'mon duval, answer the question! Yes or no?! Stop dodging it!I told you no one would answer this question right from the get go and you are constantly proving me right. Yes or no?!

Revelation 14:10 seems to suggest that the Holy Angels and the Lamb (Jesus) are in hell also. Is that true?

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

If one knew they were in the presence of the Lamb and the angels and didn't deserve to be in their Holy presence could that be considered torment?

What's your point with Jn.3:13?

Isn't it obvious? "...no man hath ascended up to heaven..."

On Lk.16:31 you asked me "Who rose from the dead?" In the context of Lk.16 my answer was "No one."

In the context of Luke 16:31 Jesus is plainly telling anyone who would listen that He would soon be rising from the dead, much as He predicted His death in other areas.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

It is obvious in Luke 16:31 that Jesus is referring to Himself.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Both the Torah (Moses) and the Tanahk (prophets) speak of Jesus and what the coming Messiah would do. They predict the Messiah would come and rise from the dead. The law (Moses, Torah) and prophets (Tanahk) all speak of Jesus. If one were to choose to ignore the law and the prophets they would miss what they say about Jesus.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[duval]

RND wrote: "So are the 'wiced' burning and being tormented in front of Jesus and the Angels? Jesus and the Angels are in hell too?" RND, I gave you scriptkure, not my opion. Ps.68:2 and Rev.14:10,11 say "presence", can you understand that?? "Presence." That is what the Word says. If you wish to speculate and opinionate, please do so. As for myself, I shall abide with what the scripture says.
Of Jn.3:13, I still ask, whats your point?? Do you have a point to make or is this more "fill up the air?"
RND wrote: "In trhe contrext of Lk.16:31 Jesus is plainlly telling anyone who would listen that He would soon be rising from the dead----" No, He is not! Please read from vs. 1 of Lk.16 thriu vs. 31. In the context of that, no one, I repeat, no one rose from the dead.

 

[RND]

RND wrote: "So are the 'wiced' burning and being tormented in front of Jesus and the Angels? Jesus and the Angels are in hell too?" RND, I gave you scriptkure, not my opion.

Here goes the "back peddle." duval I asked a specific question that based on your understanding of scripture should easily be able to be answered. So yes, I am certainly asking for your opinion.

The fcat that you either cannot or will not answer this very basic and very direct question tells me you either don't believe what scripture says or you are unwilling (for some reason) to conform what you believe.

Now, for the umpteenth time: Are the "wicked" burning and being tormented in front of Jesus and the Angels? Jesus and the Angels are in hell too?

Ps.68:2 and Rev.14:10,11 say "presence", can you understand that?? "Presence."

Yes, I understand what these verses mean perfectly. Being in the "presence" of the Lord, when you know you don't deserve to be is certainly a "torment."

Are the "wicked" burning and being tormented in front of Jesus and the Angels? Jesus and the Angels are in hell too?

That is what the Word says.

The word also calls gentiles dogs. Are gentiles really dogs?

If you wish to speculate and opinionate, please do so. As for myself, I shall abide with what the scripture says.

I feel you are desperately trying to hold onto a notion and belief that can in no way be substantiated by the majority of scripture. That's why you refuse to answer a very direct question. If you answer yes then in some way you have to believe Jesus and the Angels are in hell, watching the wicked burn. If you answer no, then it is obvious that being in "hell" is not a place where people are burned up and tortured.

You do more for my position duval by refusing to answer a basic, simple question than you do for yours. Any and every question you ever ask me is answered enthusiastically and confidently without any hesitation. You on the other hand.....

Of Jn.3:13, I still ask, whats your point?? Do you have a point to make or is this more "fill up the air?"

The point is painfully obvious. No one has ascended to heaven.

RND wrote: "In trhe contrext of Lk.16:31 Jesus is plainlly telling anyone who would listen that He would soon be rising from the dead----" No, He is not! Please read from vs. 1 of Lk.16 thriu vs. 31. In the context of that, no one, I repeat, no one rose from the dead.

You mean Jesus hasn't risen from the dead duval? Did Jesus not predict He would, many times in fact? Surely you are confused.

 

[duval]

RND wrote:"So yes, I am certainly asking for your opinion." RND it is not my practice to give an opinion where the Bible has spoken. Again, Ps.68:2 and Rev.14:10,11 use the word "presence" for the wicked, Holy angels and the Lamb. Ps.139 underlines the fact that one cannot escape the "presence" of God. Thats what the Bible says. Thats what I accept. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing different. And, for the record: I am not interested in your opinion, only what the Bible teaches.
The Jews called gentiles, dogs.
On Jn.3:13, I believe that, so what? What? What about it?
RND wrote: "You mean Jesus hasn't risen from the dead Duval?---Surely you are confused.? No RND. I am not confused. If I didn't believe Jesus rose from the dead I wouldn't be writing this. The entire chapter of Luke 16, all 31 verses of it, in no place is a prediction of Jesus' death. Read it. You asked me "Who rose from the dead?" My answer was that in the context of the chapter no one rose from the dead. The rich man wanted Lazarus to be sent back, nothing about Jesus being raised in this chapter.

 

[St Francis]

....And, for the record: I am not interested in your opinion, only what the Bible teaches......

And therein lies the 500-year-old ongoing dilemma, which is that everyone thinks that THEIR intepretation of the Bible is "what the Bible teaches."

 

[RND]

RND wrote:"So yes, I am certainly asking for your opinion." RND it is not my practice to give an opinion where the Bible has spoken. Again, Ps.68:2 and Rev.14:10,11 use the word "presence" for the wicked, Holy angels and the Lamb. Ps.139 underlines the fact that one cannot escape the "presence" of God. Thats what the Bible says. Thats what I accept. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing different. And, for the record: I am not interested in your opinion, only what the Bible teaches.

So you believe Jesus is and the Angels are in hell watching the wicked being tortured in flames. Got it.

Hbr 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Apparently, there is a slight disconnect.

The Jews called gentiles, dogs.

Not in John 3:13.

On Jn.3:13, I believe that, so what? What? What about it?

Then if no man has ascended there has been no judgment. No judgment, no toasting.

RND wrote: "You mean Jesus hasn't risen from the dead Duval?---Surely you are confused.? No RND. I am not confused. If I didn't believe Jesus rose from the dead I wouldn't be writing this. The entire chapter of Luke 16, all 31 verses of it, in no place is a prediction of Jesus' death. Read it.

I have. Who is Jesus talking about in Luke 16:31 duval? Keeping in mind that "no man has ascended" to heaven.

You asked me "Who rose from the dead?" My answer was that in the context of the chapter no one rose from the dead.

Right! Neither the "Lazarus" nor the "rich man" went anywhere.

The rich man wanted Lazarus to be sent back, nothing about Jesus being raised in this chapter.

Sent back from where? Where Lazarus didn't go?

 

[duval]

ST.FRANCIS wrote:"And therein lies the 500-yr-old ongoing delemma, which is that everyone thinks that THEIR intepretation of the Bible is 'what the Bible teaches.'" Well St.Francis, we also have to add another source of mis-interpretation: that of what their church has written.

RND, will get to you later.

 

[dadof10]

LOL...So the "smoke of their torment" is eternal, but their souls aren't. God "burns up" the soul and the REMNENT (whatever form that takes) is somehow eternal? LOL...OK.

Nope snd that's the clear point that I'm trying to make. It is being in the presence of God, the Angels and the Lamb that cause "torment" by simply being in the presence of Holiness.

Then what do these quotes mean if not that the remnent of their "burning" ascends FOREVER?

"No, not at all and in fact it substantiates the view that once the "fire is out" that is once the wicked are no longer in the presence of that which causes the flames, the Lamb and the Holy Angels, their "torment" ascends forever."

"It is fairly obvious from scripture that the "light" that is provided emanates from the Lamb, Jesus. It is that light that destroys those who know they are unworthy to be apart of it."

"The torment is forever (as in permanent), not the torment "ing."

Then maybe you could explain to me how you think I took Rev 21:23 and Rev 7:15 out of context then. Rev 21:23 says specifically that the Lamb, Jesus, is the Light of the city of New Jerusalem and because of that there is no need for a sun or moon. Now certainly the sun provides 'direct' light and the moon provides 'reflected' light.

You stated I took something out of context and I'd appreciate you showing me how I did that.

Here is the position you are supposed to be defending:

"It is fairly obvious from scripture that the "light" that is provided emanates from the Lamb, Jesus. It is that light that destroys those who know they are unworthy to be apart of it."

"Being that they are no longer in the presences of Jesus means that they are no longer "in the light" and it is that light that sustains life."


As far as I can understand you, you are saying the Damned are burned up and cease to exist because they are in the Presence of "the light of Christ". Here are the passages you claim uphold that position.

"Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

"Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

Where does it say that that those not in the "light of Christ" cease to exist? Please show me how these verses bolster your case.

Let's look at this logically. If Jesus is light and we abide in that light what happens without that light and what does one abide in there? Darkness.

Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jesus is the Light of the world. Without that light is darkness and there is no life. The opposite of life is what? Death. The verses I quoted say the same thing. Life abounds in the light not in darkness.

Again you are misunderstanding a clear metephor. The word "darkness" here and elsewhere in Scripture does not mean annihilation. Remember, this is the point you are trying to make.How can someone "walk in darkness" if "darkness" is annihilation? Maybe it will clear it up if we look at other verses that use the same metephor:

"Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God. (1Corinthians (RSV) 4)"

"If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. (1John (RSV) 1)"

These are clear references to sin as in Jn. 8 above. Darkness refers to remaining in sin, not being annihilated.

Because the decision of the wicked is "permanent." The decision they make is final. That decision lasts forever.

Decisions are permanent? They can have permanent CONSEQUENCES, but they are not, in and of themselves, permanent.

Not at all. Whenever we remember the "punishing" we received as kids during as the result of "punishment" we got it is always remembering the "punishment." For example, when I was 9 and my brother was 12 my mom caught him smoking a cigarette. As "punishment" she made him smoke a huge, nasty cigar that caused him to get sick and vomit and puke a lot. She made me watch. To this very day nearly forty years after the fact we remember this brutal and unforgettable lesson in why one shouldn't smoke cigarettes. Now granted, we laugh like hyenas whenever this story is relived but we remember the punishment vividly.

But here's the kicker. My mom isn't still "punishing" my brother by making him smoke a huge, nasty cigar that caused him to get sick and forcing me to watch. The "punishing" is long over but the "punishment" is still remembered.

With all due respect, this is one of the most absurd, illogical analogies I have read on these forums. It begs SO MANY questions, I'll only list four:

1) Your whole house of cards either stands or falls on whether we remember these punishments. How are we to remember the "punishment" forever if we cease to exist? Does God remember? Does He keep reliving it over and over? What does that say about His compassion?

2) You assume we remember all the punishments in our lives. What about the ones we forget? Are those still "eternal"?

3) All punishments are simply events in a person's life. Are all events eternal, also? What about joyful, sorrowful, luminous, or glorious events in our lives? Are all remembered events eternal?

4) Honestly, do you think this is what Jesus meant when He said that the wicked will "go into eternal punishment"?...Really?

Is any of this getting through and beginning to make sense to you?

No, not really. If it ever does, I'll start questioning my sanity .

I don't have much time anymore. I'll have more time after the first of the year to respond. This topic is getting old anyway and it's not what I want to think about at this joyous time of year. I'll give you the last word.

God Bless and Merry Christmas to you and your family,

Mark

 

[St Francis]

Excellent post, dadof10