Hell Fire

[YellowcakeMutant]

YM,
Out of curiosity, why would God tell us to love our enemies, yet He will torture His for eternity? Why would a mere human who is sane, never want their children to suffer forever, no matter what they have done, yet we are supposed to believe a God of love will allow His children to suffer forever?
Grace, Bubba

I believe I answered these questions in my earlier post. God must punish sin, and for him not to do so would mean he would cease to be God, which is impossible.

Your objection is based on the reasoning that God's attribute of love should keep him from punishing people eternally in hell. To be logically consistent, however, you should also come to my conclusion: that God's attributes of holiness and justice keep him from allowing sin to go unpunished. I find it most revealing that you cling to the former while avoiding the latter.

The fact is that God's love, patience and longsuffering, while lasting mind-bogglingly longer than we humans deserve, are, nevertheless, not without limitations. His love will never eliminate his holiness and justice. Until you come to grips with all of God's attributes, your thinking on this subject will amount to little more than a religious version of "All You Need Is Love."

YM

 

[RND]

It's not "love me or else" but rather "I can have nothing to do with sin because I, God, am holy and separate from all that is unholy and evil. In addition to that, I must punish all violations of my law because I am just."

A god who does not have the above qualities is not a god worthy of my worship and devotion.

So why is God so good to those that even hate him? Why we He choose to reconcile with us before we reconcile to Him?

It seems that you're making the same mistake so many others make regarding this subject: You accept only the attributes of God that are pleasing to us while rejecting the others that seem not so pleasant, such as holiness, justice and wrath. Be careful: By accepting only the divine attributes of love and mercy while denying these others, you are essentially fashioning a god to fit your own design. That is idolatry. It's okay to struggle with how all these attributes can coexist in God--after all, ultimately there will always be something about God that we can't understand, since we are mere humans. To embrace some while rejecting others, however, is to go too far.

I accept every attribute that God displays - everyone. I accept that God by His own mouth said He came to to condemn but to save. Satan's view of God is the predominate view of a a God so full of love and mercy that we would provide a way for His enemies to escape while they were still His enemies.

Incredible.

 

[YellowcakeMutant]

It's not "love me or else" but rather "I can have nothing to do with sin because I, God, am holy and separate from all that is unholy and evil. In addition to that, I must punish all violations of my law because I am just."

A god who does not have the above qualities is not a god worthy of my worship and devotion.

So why is God so good to those that even hate him? Why we He choose to reconcile with us before we reconcile to Him?

Because it's in his nature to be good, longsuffering and patient. But these attributes cannot eliminate his justice and holiness. Answer me this: If God is just and holy, how could he allow sin to go unpunished? Even his own son was not spared from this punishment on the behalf of sinners! This is the ultimate proof that God must punish iniquity and separate himself from all sin.

[quote:1isygc64]It seems that you're making the same mistake so many others make regarding this subject: You accept only the attributes of God that are pleasing to us while rejecting the others that seem not so pleasant, such as holiness, justice and wrath. Be careful: By accepting only the divine attributes of love and mercy while denying these others, you are essentially fashioning a god to fit your own design. That is idolatry. It's okay to struggle with how all these attributes can coexist in God--after all, ultimately there will always be something about God that we can't understand, since we are mere humans. To embrace some while rejecting others, however, is to go too far.

I accept every attribute that God displays - everyone.[/quote:1isygc64]

Somehow I'm not so sure of that.

YM

 

[RND]

I believe I answered these questions in my earlier post. God must punish sin, and for him not to do so would mean he would cease to be God, which is impossible.

Done!

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Payment made!

Your objection is based on the reasoning that God's attribute of love should keep him from punishing people eternally in hell. To be logically consistent, however, you should also come to my conclusion: that God's attributes of holiness and justice keep him from allowing sin to go unpunished. I find it most revealing that you cling to the former while avoiding the latter.

Whats the "punishment" for sin? Eternal torment?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The fact is that God's love, patience and longsuffering, while lasting mind-bogglingly longer than we humans deserve, are, nevertheless, not without limitations.

Who said? What an absolutely incredible statement. There is only one thing that God cannot or will not do....force people to love Him.

His love will never eliminate his holiness and justice. Until you come to grips with all of God's attributes, your thinking on this subject will amount to little more than a religious version of "All You Need Is Love."

I'd read 1 Corinthians 13 over again if I were you. God doesn't seek His own way. God is patient and kind. God is not easily provoked. God is not it is not irritable or resentful. God's love is not jealous or boastful or proud.

Man is it any wonder that people keep running from God. Is it any wonder that through His Son He keeps chasing.

Answer the call and eat!

 

[RND]

Because it's in his nature to be good, longsuffering and patient. But these attributes cannot eliminate his justice and holiness. Answer me this: If God is just and holy, how could he allow sin to go unpunished?

He doesn't. Death is the punishment.

Pro 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Even his own son was not spared from this punishment on the behalf of sinners! This is the ultimate proof that God must punish iniquity and separate himself from all sin.

Jesus was punished so we don't have to be.

Somehow I'm not so sure of that.

Evidently.

 

[Bubba]

I believe I answered these questions in my earlier post. God must punish sin, and for him not to do so would mean he would cease to be God, which is impossible.

Your objection is based on the reasoning that God's attribute of love should keep him from punishing people eternally in hell. To be logically consistent, however, you should also come to my conclusion: that God's attributes of holiness and justice keep him from allowing sin to go unpunished. I find it most revealing that you cling to the former while avoiding the latter.

The fact is that God's love, patience and longsuffering, while lasting mind-bogglingly longer than we humans deserve, are, nevertheless, not without limitations. His love will never eliminate his holiness and justice. Until you come to grips with all of God's attributes, your thinking on this subject will amount to little more than a religious version of "All You Need Is Love."

YM,
I believe God will punish and discipline His children, but I believe it is a remedial punishment to correct and direct. What possible rational explanation does one have for God or anyone to punish for no other reason then to appease the wrath of the one offended, especially when one has the power to change the individuals heart, and in the light of the fact that many the offense is due to the the influences we are born in to (i.e., being born into a Muslim culture of poverty and illiteracy). If I had the power to change my rebellious childs destructive behavior I would do it, in the end God will for His children (Col. 1:20).
Grace ,Bubba

 

[RND]

Bubba.....great thoughts! Thanks.

 

[RND]

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Isn't interesting that Jesus seemed to be teaching here that those that know better will be punished more than those that don't? Why is it that we always perceive the wicked as those that don't know God as opposed to those that do?

The Pharisees could "cant" or sing the Torah and yet they were "far" from God and their hearts were "evil" doing the will of their father, Satan.

Isn't interesting that it seems the more "self-righteous" we are the more that those outside of the will of God are gonna "get it?"

 

[YellowcakeMutant]

I believe I answered these questions in my earlier post. God must punish sin, and for him not to do so would mean he would cease to be God, which is impossible.

Done!

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Payment made!

Indeed. But what of those who refuse to appropriate the payment through faith?

[quote:1otcggvs]Your objection is based on the reasoning that God's attribute of love should keep him from punishing people eternally in hell. To be logically consistent, however, you should also come to my conclusion: that God's attributes of holiness and justice keep him from allowing sin to go unpunished. I find it most revealing that you cling to the former while avoiding the latter.

Whats the "punishment" for sin? Eternal torment?[/quote:1otcggvs]

Yes.

[quote:1otcggvs]The fact is that God's love, patience and longsuffering, while lasting mind-bogglingly longer than we humans deserve, are, nevertheless, not without limitations.

Who said?[/quote:1otcggvs]

Three scriptural facts:

1) Some will be raised to shame and everlasting contempt. His love will not prevent this.
2) God must punish sin, as made clear when he made Christ to be sin who knew no sin. His love for his own Son did not prevent this.
3) God must separate himself from all that is sinful. His love cannot prevent this.

What an absolutely incredible statement. There is only one thing that God cannot or will not do....force people to love Him.

This statement of yours is actually the incredible one. Are you saying that God can have fellowship with sin? that his eyes can look on wickedness? that he can allow sin to go unpunished?

[quote:1otcggvs]His love will never eliminate his holiness and justice. Until you come to grips with all of God's attributes, your thinking on this subject will amount to little more than a religious version of "All You Need Is Love."

I'd read 1 Corinthians 13 over again if I were you. God doesn't seek His own way. God is patient and kind. God is not easily provoked. God is not it is not irritable or resentful. God's love is not jealous or boastful or proud.[/quote:1otcggvs]

If that were the only scripture passage on this subject, you'd have a point.

Man is it any wonder that people keep running from God. Is it any wonder that through His Son He keeps chasing.

This is absurd. Scripture abounds with declarations that man runs from God because he loves darkness rather than light, refuses to retain the knowledge of God and is hostile to God's law, among other reasons.

Answer the call and eat!

Understand the word of God and submit to it.

 

[YellowcakeMutant]

YM,
I believe God will punish and discipline His children, but I believe it is a remedial punishment to correct and direct.

But not all are his adopted children by faith in Jesus Christ.

What possible rational explanation does one have for God or anyone to punish for no other reason then to appease the wrath of the one offended,

Your question is loaded. God punishes not just to appease his wrath but also to satisfy justice. In addition, his holiness is hostile to anything sinful. If you understood just how holy God is, you would not have asked this question.

especially when one has the power to change the individuals heart, and in the light of the fact that many the offense is due to the the influences we are born in to

People sin because they want to--it's that simple. They sin because...

* they are hostile to God and do not submit to his law (Romans 8:7),
* they love darkness rather than light (John 3:19)

Cultural influences may have some influence, but at bottom it is man's innate rebellion to God that leads to all the sins we commit.

i.e., being born into a Muslim culture of poverty and illiteracy). If I had the power to change my rebellious childs destructive behavior I would do it, in the end God will for His children (Col. 1:20).

For the elect, yes.

YM

 

[RND]

Indeed. But what of those who refuse to appropriate the payment through faith?

They die. In fact they are considered "dead" already.

Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Yes.

Can you provide one verse that says that?

Three scriptural facts:

1) Some will be raised to shame and everlasting contempt. His love will not prevent this.

No doubt. Who's shame and contempt?

2) God must punish sin, as made clear when he made Christ to be sin who knew no sin. His love for his own Son did not prevent this.

Death is the punishment for sin.

3) God must separate himself from all that is sinful. His love cannot prevent this.

Hence death.

This statement of yours is actually the incredible one. Are you saying that God can have fellowship with sin?

Didn't Jesus eat with "publicans and sinners?"

that his eyes can look on wickedness?

Didn't Jesus heal sinners?

that he can allow sin to go unpunished?

Everyone dies, so certainly sin doesn't go unpunished. How come Jesus didn't pick-up a rock a chuck it at the woman caught in adultery seeing He was the only one in the crowd without sin?

If that were the only scripture passage on this subject, you'd have a point.

I agree. There are many more scriptures that demonstrate God's enormous love than there are verses that describe His in unrelenting and unmerciful anger.

This is absurd. Scripture abounds with declarations that man runs from God because he loves darkness rather than light, refuses to retain the knowledge of God and is hostile to God's law, among other reasons.

The "darkness" stems from the very first lie and the "light" emanates from truth.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Understand the word of God and submit to it.

Hey, if you can show me one verse that shows that God will torture unbelievers forever and ever I'll believe that God will torture the wicked with fire forever and ever.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; 16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure.

 

[RND]

Jack, I went to the http://www.alexandriago.org web site and found this article: Have You Kept
All of God's Law?

It states:

What is the penalty for sin?

"The soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4).

"...the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15).

Two outta three ain't bad!

The last one (Revelation 20:15) is the result of "judgment" not sin.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

BTW, you a sabbatarian?

 

[Bubba]

But not all are his adopted children by faith in Jesus Christ.

In this age you are correct in respect to revelation, but I do not believe God is done with the human race in the next.

Your question is loaded. God punishes not just to appease his wrath but also to satisfy justice. In addition, his holiness is hostile to anything sinful. If you understood just how holy God is, you would not have asked this question.

I totally understand the Reform belief expounded by the likes of people like Jonathon Edwards, to justify the need for a Hell of eternal consequences and that God is even glorified by this process. I once even believed this myself in an intellectual way, but my heart never fully accepted this compromise. I would also bet there are times when you yourself have thought of the gravity of eternal torment for the majority of the human race since the beginning of time that we inherited from our Garden parents that do not set well with you. After all eternity is not equal to the life span of the average man and even Annihilation would be a more palatable position to maintain at least an acceptable character of a God of love.

People sin because they want to--it's that simple. They sin because...

* they are hostile to God and do not submit to his law (Romans 8:7),
* they love darkness rather than light (John 3:19)

Cultural influences may have some influence, but at bottom it is man's innate rebellion to God that leads to all the sins we commit.

This is all true, but does our federal head Adam who brought about this curse that makes mankind do what he or she does make you feel any better? It does for me only when I incorporate the complete story of the 2nd Adam our Lord, bringing life to the whole human race (Romans 5:18 and 1Corinthians 15:22).
Grace, Bubba

 

[St Francis]

...If I had the power to change my rebellious childs destructive behavior I would do it...

Its a good thing you are not God. I prefer to retain my free will, and choose to follow God out of love, not because he intervened and changed my behavior.

 

[Bubba]

Francis,
What "freewill", your a product of all the influences that have effected your life after conception. The only reason you accepted Christ is because God orchestrated the event ( by all the stimuli in your life enelightened by the Holy Spirit, or you would still be dead in your sins).
Grace, Bubba

 

[St Francis]

...The only reason you accepted Christ is because God orchestrated the event ( by all the stimuli in your life enelightened by the Holy Spirit, or you would still be dead in your sins)....

No, I accepted Christ because I made a choice to heed the Father's call. True, God did provide "stimuli" (to use your word) by calling me to him, as he calls all people everywhere. Some choose to hear the call and respond, and some do not. I did.

 

[Bubba]

Francis,
Does God know the beginning from the end? If so, He knew who would say yes and who would say no to His Son, before the foundation of the earth. Would He purposely allow for those He knew would say no prior to their creation, be born, live for a short while and then spend eternity in Hell? Actually, if you consider the whole thought of “Original Sinâ€Â, God looks into the future and no one seeks Him until he regenerates their heart, such is the state of man after the “Fallâ€Â. So, again, what freewill do you really have if you are enslaved to sin up into that “Damascus Road†experience?
Grace and life, Bubba

 

[St Francis]

Francis,
Does God know the beginning from the end? If so, He knew who would say yes and who would say no to His Son, before the foundation of the earth....

That is true, but that does not negate the fact that is was my free will choice. Yes, He knows the choices we will make, but they are still our choices to make.

.....Would He purposely allow for those He knew would say no prior to their creation, be born, live for a short while and then spend eternity in Hell?....

Yes, because it was their choice. They had the choice of life or death - good and evil - placed before them, and they chose evil. God will honor your choice, because He is good: God will render judgement upon your choice, because He is just.

....Actually, if you consider the whole thought of “Original Sinâ€Â, God looks into the future and no one seeks Him until he regenerates their heart.....

I disagree. That would make God the author of evil, becuase that would mean that the only people who go to Him are the ones whose hearts He regenerated, which means God chose certain people to go to hell before they were born. That is unacceptable and it denies the perfect mercy of God.

..., such is the state of man after the “Fallâ€Â. So, again, what freewill do you really have if you are enslaved to sin up into that “Damascus Road†experience? Grace and life, Bubba

"Original Sin" did not take away our free will.

Now, I fear we have strayed off topic somewhat.