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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Hell Fire
- Thread starter RND
- Start date
After seeing that the subject of Hell and its likeness was being brought up I figured I would share some passages on it.
Luke 16:19-31 (King James Version)
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Matthew 13:49-50 (King James Version)
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
There are likely more I could share, but do not want to run the risk any more than I have of having too long a post.
May God Bless You
Danielle
Luke 16:19-31 (King James Version)
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Matthew 13:49-50 (King James Version)
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
There are likely more I could share, but do not want to run the risk any more than I have of having too long a post.
May God Bless You
Danielle
Danielle, the Bible tells us that Jesus spoke to the crowds and to the Pharisees only in parables (Mat 13:34). From this we can conclude that the story of Lazarus was indeed and parable. More than that though is the fascinating symbolism that is displayed here. We need to honestly ask what does the rich man represent, Lazarus (it means 'helpless'), the 'dogs', the crumbs, the table, the faring sumptuously, the 'five' brothers. All of these are symbols that represent a picture that Jesus was sharing in a marvelous string of parable starting in Luke 15.LostLamb said:
When we look hard we can find the correlation between what Jesus spoke to the Pharisees matches plainly with many other symbols, stories and word pictures in the Bible.
Danielle have you ever put anything into a fire and known it to continue to burn forever? Abundle of 'weeds" perhaps as alluded to in Matthew 13:40?
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Does this verse or the ones you quoted say anything about "continual burning?" Also, is being cast into a furnace of fire the cause for the weeping and gnashing of teeth and not being burnt forever?
R
Rick W
Guest
LostLamb said:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
R
Rick W
Guest
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
It may be worthwhile to consider fire as God's judgment as I've mentioned before instead of the fire, fuel/oxygen, as we know it. The bush burned for the angel of the LORD was within. But it was not consumed.
Refiner's fire... etc
There are many such statements for the judgment of God.
You will be baptized with fire...
over and over
It may be worthwhile to consider fire as God's judgment as I've mentioned before instead of the fire, fuel/oxygen, as we know it. The bush burned for the angel of the LORD was within. But it was not consumed.
Refiner's fire... etc
There are many such statements for the judgment of God.
You will be baptized with fire...
over and over
dadof10
Member
RND said:
Rick has a good take on the "it's not fair" claim made by people who hold the "annihilation" view. I haven't read this entire thread, so if this has been covered here I apologize for the re-hash. This was posted in a previous thread by him and (surprise!) was not responded to by anyone holding your view. Maybe you can give it a shot.
We could go back to something that has already occurred, the Flood.
Was there justice in that? He shed His wrath on everyone... women, children and everything else that walked or crawled.
We can debate God's judgment all day long but in the end he is sovereign whether we like it or not.
Where is the justice that death should come into the world? By our ways of thinking why should we have to pay for the sin of Adam and Eve... wasn't our fault, heck, we weren't even there.
People continue to rebel even when faced with the absolute certainty they are going to die. In the face of death they say there is no God, there is no punishment while all along they bear the same punishment as all mankind for sin. Death.
Christ demonstrated that punishment of death will not be revoked. He died on the cross. He also demonstrated the way to life, belief in what he accomplished, resurrection from the dead. Maybe He should have proven what happens if one doesn't believe instead? Would that convince anyone the more?
There are other examples of God condoning or actually ordering the death of "innocent" people, but as pointed out above, God is sovereign and His ways are not our ways. To call eternal punishment unfair or unjust is to force our morality on God.
dadof10
Member
Timf said:
"46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew (RSV) 25)
"17 For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 18 because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal. (2Corinthians (RSV) 4)
In these two verses, the word "aionios" is translated as "eternal". Only Young's (written in the 19th century) translates it as "age-during". All modern translations use "eternal".
RND said:
RND,
Were Jesus' parables not reflections of spiritual things? Were they not used so as to try to educate or reveal God's mysteries to man? Or do you feel that perhaps they were just stories without point and no real fiber?
No, I have not put anything or any part of me into a fire to have it continue to burn forever, but does this mean such is not possible? After all....did God not use a burning bush that was NOT at all scorched by the flames as a means to show Himself to Moses? Does that not defy any logic in itsself?
Sometimes I think we tend to try to restrict God's abilities. When in truth, there are NO restrictions or limits to what God can do.
Hell is by no means fictional to me. It is a place of eternal judgement for those who never came to know Christ as well as those who CHOSE not to know Him. That is my basic understanding. It is something I do not mind looking deeper into, but nonetheless I am not going to try to change my oppinion to that of which might define God as unfair. For God is NOT so. We are beings with free will, a God GIVEN gift which allows us to CHOOSE to love. Rather than obligates us to love Him. That in itself I find to be truly the acts and works of a Loving God.
Just My Thoughts.....
May God Bless You
Danielle
LostLamb said:
Certainly, and that's reason even more to realize that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable and not a reflection of actual circumstances upon death. What the parable does truly reflect is the Pharisees "adultery" against the actual word of God in which they were given to know and teach. The Pharisees had committed adultery against God through adopted teaching and beliefs that were wholly the product of the pagan religions. That is why Luke 16:18 which directly proceeds the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus seems so out of place to some.
Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.
Jesus isn't just given a proper rendition of the Law of God here He is actually comparing (parable) the Pharisees current beliefs as adultery against the true word of God that the Torah and Tanahk tell them. To me this is one of the most fascinating exchanges in the entire Bible and culminates a Bible full of stories about how the Children of Israel constantly committed adultery against God.
Indeed.
There are no words in the Bible without a point. Every page reveals the Character of God and Jesus Christ.
Sure, it certainly does. Now, ask yourself, who or what was in that burning bush?
I agree. But we tend to think in abstracts relating to 'wrath' first than 'love' first.
What about those that claim to know Him and do not do His will?
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Just My Thoughts.....[/quote]
I don't understand the desire of "looking deeper" into something without a willingness to have one's mindset or opinion changed. I have never been a "the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" kind of guy.
I don't think a friend minds answering another friends questions. And I have alot of questions.
John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
RND said:
These are what I believe are described as Lukewarm Christians in the New Testament. Though I will not deny the possibility that I could be wrong.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
For just as this passage says......or well Could imply....there are false Christians out there....perhaps even Lukewarm ones? Then as I said before....I could be wrong.
RND said:
The bible for me, though I know not for all, is God's written word and therefore....well...enables me to believe without seeing or having to have some form of evidence or the like to back it up. Though I honestly to feel God reveals Himself to me each and every day. Not to say that anyone who does not have the same form of faith in the Bible is wrong or any less of a Christian. For by no means I am not one to say that. That is for God alone to decide. Not me.
As I have said above and will say again. There is always the possibility I am wrong in accordance to some of my interpretation. I am but a babe in Christ. The years I may have had Him in my life count for not, but the reading...praying...and the like is where it truly should. As a child in Christ, there is much yet for me still to learn....should my unhindering faith in the Bible make me head strong I am not....well certain if I should appologize for that or not. Seeing as I am not sure if it is such a bad thing or not.
With all that said, I will withdraw from this discussion.
May God Bless You
Danielle
LOSTLAMB, don't withdraw, continue to put your thoughts in!!
I believe in hell. I believe it is everlasting. I do not believe it to be the grave. I believe we should do all possible to keep ourselves and others from being residents of hell. I believe we can back up these propositions with scripture and not be afraid.
Lets look at heaven first. It is described as a beautiful place with a street of gold, gates of pearl, costliy jewels etc., etc. My understanding is that the street of gold etc. are not literal. Since the scripture teaches that flesh and blood shall not inherit it, what good would literal gems be? Gold, etc., are but the most costly commodities of which the human mind can comprehend. In short, it seems Deity is unable to speak to the flesh what that wonderful place is like, so He uses gold,etc.
I Cor.2:9 reads: "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him." This passage was not speaking of heaven per se but surely the principle is seen. What ever heaven is like, its for more
wonderful than we are able to think.
Now, hell. Hell is described as a place of "outter darkness" Matt.25. Hell is described as a "furnace of fire" Matt.13:42. Hell is said to be a "lake of fire", Rev.20:14,15. Now, "outter darkness" means a place where there is absolutely not trace of light. So, if so, how can it be a "furnace"? A thows forth light! And if a "lake of fire" it also would not be "outter darkness" and viceversa with all the above. A furnace is not a lake, and a lake is not a furnace, and neither are places of outter darkness. These are some of the most horrifying places to be in for those of us who are flesh and blood. But, I ask, what could a literal fire do to a soul? WHAT EVER HELL IS, IT IS FOR MORE HORRIBLE THAN MAN WHO IS MORTAL CAN COMPREHEND.
I do believe in degrees of punishment, but that the above descriptions of hell do not touch on that.
I shall be happy to discuss the Bible facts about hell, its duration etc. and that it is not the grave.
I believe in hell. I believe it is everlasting. I do not believe it to be the grave. I believe we should do all possible to keep ourselves and others from being residents of hell. I believe we can back up these propositions with scripture and not be afraid.
Lets look at heaven first. It is described as a beautiful place with a street of gold, gates of pearl, costliy jewels etc., etc. My understanding is that the street of gold etc. are not literal. Since the scripture teaches that flesh and blood shall not inherit it, what good would literal gems be? Gold, etc., are but the most costly commodities of which the human mind can comprehend. In short, it seems Deity is unable to speak to the flesh what that wonderful place is like, so He uses gold,etc.
I Cor.2:9 reads: "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him." This passage was not speaking of heaven per se but surely the principle is seen. What ever heaven is like, its for more
wonderful than we are able to think.
Now, hell. Hell is described as a place of "outter darkness" Matt.25. Hell is described as a "furnace of fire" Matt.13:42. Hell is said to be a "lake of fire", Rev.20:14,15. Now, "outter darkness" means a place where there is absolutely not trace of light. So, if so, how can it be a "furnace"? A thows forth light! And if a "lake of fire" it also would not be "outter darkness" and viceversa with all the above. A furnace is not a lake, and a lake is not a furnace, and neither are places of outter darkness. These are some of the most horrifying places to be in for those of us who are flesh and blood. But, I ask, what could a literal fire do to a soul? WHAT EVER HELL IS, IT IS FOR MORE HORRIBLE THAN MAN WHO IS MORTAL CAN COMPREHEND.
I do believe in degrees of punishment, but that the above descriptions of hell do not touch on that.
I shall be happy to discuss the Bible facts about hell, its duration etc. and that it is not the grave.
dadof10 said:
Word pictures that include subjects that are obviously not real with respect to the subject matter being "compared to" could be considered "false" in that sense.
When Nathan gave David a parable of a man with lots of sheep compared to a man that only had one the obvious comparable was true in relating David's condition even though the objects of the story were not.
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is no different. Jesus was relating the "false doctrine" that the Pharisees had adopted from the Greeks, Egyptians and Babylonians when He was telling the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The fact that there are obvious objects that Jesus injected into this parable that the learned Pharisees would know instinctively make this parable the most fascinating in all of the Gospels.
dadof10
Member
RND said:
This is the ONLY "parable" in the NT that has a REAL, NAMED SUBJECT, Lazarus. This is why many theologians question whether this story is a parable or not. It could be a real story of what happened when Lazarus died before he was raised.
Can you show me another one of Jesus' parables that uses examples of false doctrine to teach Truth?
There was no false doctrine used to show Truth in this parable. To prove your point Nathan would have had to used pigs in the example instead of sheep, or something like that. Could you see this actually happening? I submit the inspiration of entire book of 2 Sam. would be called into question. Do you think this example would fly with the explanation "the objects of the story are just fictional"? I don't.
Why would Jesus confuse His listeners like that? Did He have no knowledge of the afterlife? Was there NO other examples He could have used to get His point across without having to resort to using as an example (in your opinion) a fantasy?
Huh? Do you mean the Sadducees? They were the ones that held Hellinistic views and denied the resurrection, not the Pharisees. I don't see any mention of the Sadducees in Luke 16. What "false doctrine that the Pharisees had adopted" are you referring to? If "soul sleep" is true, what lesson was Jesus trying to get across to His listeners by using as an example the rich man alive, awake and in torment?
dadof10 said:
Is there some "unwritten rule" that a parable can not contain the name of an individual? Is there a lesson that can be learned in understanding what the name "Lazarus" means? It means 'helpless.'
Yet there are many parables that allude to "real" entities. Is there any doubt about the number of parables that allude to God the Father? Is God not real?
Can I show you other examples of Jesus using "fictional characters" and "fictional situations" to get His point across? Sure you bet. Does it matter that Jesus was using the "false" beliefs of the Pharisees to make a point about there "false" beliefs?
I think it all depends on perspective frankly. When Jesus uses the idea of "five brothers" with the Pharisees, even though the scriptures tell us that Jesus only spoke in parables because people wouldn't hear Him, do you think for a second that these Pharisees didn't know what He was talking about? I don't. There were times when Jesus spoke in parables that the Pharisees perceived He was referring to them. Luke 16:19-31 is no different to me.
I actually see it differently than you do. I don't believe Jesus was confussing them as much as He was trying to get them to "refocus" on the scriptural truth that is found in the Torah and Tanahk; neither of which teach in anyway that men burn for eternity in constant torment.
Nope. The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection.
Mat 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
I think you are mistaken somewhat. The Sadducees believed that when one died that was it. No resurrection, no going here or there. For them there is no ressurection, no angels, no eternity for mankind, just oblivion.
The Pharisees believed in both a "resurrection" of the good (them!) and damnation of the bad (not them!) much as people today believe.
The pagan notion adopted from ancient Babylon, Egypt and Greece that man is "immortal" without God.
That's just it, that is not a point that Jesus is focusing in on, that is part of the Pharisees beliefs that He is using to instruct them in an attempt to get these religious leaders to refocus on the truth of the scriptures. Hence all the hidden references to describe those on the outside looking into the goodness of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and those entrusted with imparting that knowledge of God. Instead, we see the Pharisees very much like the COI after the Exodus that adopted many of the pagan ideas and religious notions of their neighbors.
dadof10
Member
RND said:
No, it is just inconsistant with EVERY OTHER PARABLE in Scripture, which is why many theologians are questioning whether it is a parable or not.
Is there a lesson to be learned in understanding that Jesus had an actual friend named Lazarus that died and was resurrected? Is there a lesson to be learned about the FACT that no other parables use any names?
Are there any that show God as, say an angel? Any that show God doing something un-Godlike? This is the point you are trying to make, that Jesus, in Luke 16, is showing God doing something HE WOULDN'T DO (in your opinion), namely put someone in Hades and torment them, in order to make a point. I'm not arguing there are no parables that use real people, I thought you were when you said "Word pictures that include subjects that are obviously not real with respect to the subject matter being "compared to" could be considered "false" in that sense."
So can I, but I'm not arguing this point at all. Straw-man. Can you give me any examples of parables that use false doctrine to teach Truth?
Not without CORRECTING THESE FALSE BELIEFS. There is no correction. Jesus didn't say anything about how the beliefs were false. If you see a correction of the "false doctrine" of torment in the afterlife in this "parable", please point it out.
I don't know what the "5 brothers" refers to.
That's not the point.
How so? How would this parable get them to "refocus" on a "Scriptural Truth", by using as an example the doctrine that He was trying to get them to turn from, then NOT correcting it?
Which is what I said. Read my quote again:
Do you mean the Sadducees? They were the ones that held Hellinistic views and denied the resurrection, not the Pharisees.
Again, how does Jesus straighten out this "pagan notion" with the parable in Luke 16? He just assumes the bad people go to "Hades". He doesn't even argue the point!!!
I'm not following. He is using the eternal torment "part of the Pharisees beliefs" to get them to refocus on the truth of soul sleep? Could you elaborate?
P
Paidion
Guest
Let's see how firm Origen was:
Origen (185-255 A.D))
The Reconciliation of All things to God (Including the Devil!)
The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing ofcountless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following hard upon them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders will advance and reconcile themselves to God, who once were enemies; and so at length the last enemy will be reached. ...
De Principiis, III.vi.6
Through His Repentance, the Devil Shall Be Destroyed
When it is said that ‘the last enemy shall be destroyed’, it is not to be understood as meaning that his substance, which is God's creation, perishes, but that his purpose and hostile will perishes; for this does not come from God but from himself. Therefore his destruction means not his ceasing to exist but ceasing to be an enemy and ceasing to be death. Nothing is impossible to omni potence; there is nothing that cannot be healed by its Maker. De Principiis, 1.vi.1-4
The Remedial Judgments of God
[Isa. I. II ... 'the fire which you have kindled'.] This seems to indicate that the individual sinner kindles the flame of his persona! fire and that he is not plunged into some fire kindled by another, ...
God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician ... the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health ...[cf. Isa. xlvii. 14,15, x. 17, Ixvi. 16; Mal. iii. 3]
De Principiis, II.x.4,6
codenamehsk
Member