T
HELL'S FIRST MOMENT.... THROUGHOUT ETERNITY
- Thread starter turnorburn
- Start date
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
WordsintoHarmony
Member
Hi Tristan I understand how you feel. I once was perplexed of the idea … How can a loving God make a place called Hell? You know what? This bothered me so much I thought about this day and night. I kept reasoning with God. Yes Lord you’re a Loving God and you created Hell. I know this is true but I want to make God innocent to prove He is a loving God. I had wished that Hell did not exist.
I pleaded to God if I was god I would make a prison though. People would only live in prison stay locked behind the door never to see anyone else again. This was my version of Hell the way I wanted it to be. I kept making Hell in my mind a more pleasant place to satisfy what I believe God should do.
But there then became a problem in this thinking…. Wait a minute though…. I’m not God….I’m a human being. If I am not God then I can’t think neither can I judge and nor can I reason how God reasons with things.
Spending all my time trying to change God’s reason or how Hell should really be I was judging God himself and the reason why God does things. How can I, as being the dust of the Earth (Genesis 2 verse 7) the created being tell God, the Almighty, the Eternal God, who declares to us He know all things a mortal being telling God what to do? This was a Revelation. Hell is not my way neither our reasoning what is fair. It would just not seem right to place a Judgment on anyone like this. But for God that is not the case.
How do you see sin? How does God see sin? Actually many of us see sin as an oops I dropped my sandwich on the floor. . OK fine I will make a new one. . In the eyes of God sin is very detestable to God. He the Lord hates sin. . God hates sin more than He hates anything else. The character is God is a Holy God. He is righteous, Holy, loving and true.
But God that loves is the same God who judges evil and sin. God is the king, the Lord even the Judge of all nations. We are taught in the Bible God judges both the righteous and the wicked. Everyone therefore no matter what one has done will be judged. The righteous will be judged in Beama which judges only our works. The works itself are burned up. But yet they that believe are saved and are rewarded by those works that did not burn up. . The wicked on the other hand went to the Great White Throne Judgment. They were not invited to Beama Judgment. They have denied the Lord or even them that did not listen to God. There is no second chance to make things up in the white Throne Judgment. So this is absolutely the very one place we ourselves never ever want to go to. And we Witness to others also not be of the White Throne judgment. .
Take a look at Daniel chapter 12. See Michael the Angel calls them from the dust of the Earth. Both the good and the wicked shall be called from their sleep. For they were dead waiting for judgment. This state was not Eternal it is called ‘The First Death’ The first Death everyone will see. The only ones not to see this are those when Jesus returns, those alive to be caught up with him. They won’t die but their bodies will change.
Jesus says in John Chapter 3 one must be born again by the spirit and by water. Jesus says there is a physical birth and there is also a spiritual birth. Our second birth actually happens when we meet the Lord in the air we become as of Spirit. But one might say this birth began when we were alive. But actually in this life we are in the state of as being a baby in the mother. We are being nurtured being in the stomach is part of the birth process. But it is after death when life will be eternal. In our flesh we can not proclaim we have eternal life. Only when we have those glorified bodies we could say this.
So even also there is a second birth of life. The physical life and the birth of the spirit it’s also the same with death too. First there is a physical death but there is also a spiritual death. This called the Second Death. See when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed everyone died and was destroyed but never to return. You say that is everlasting and that is true. I’m sure we will never see those places again. . Take a look at Daniel 12 the wicked are called from their sleep even as the righteous.
2 Many people who have already died will live again. Some of them will wake up to have life forever, but some will wake up to find shame and disgrace forever.
So this is proof ‘The First Death of being in the grave was not an eternal state of being. The spirit ‘not the flesh’ stands before God .The spirit will be judged the Second Death. . 2 Deaths can not mean eternal since the second shows Death one and Death 2 were separate events. . Would God call someone from the dead to judge the wicked just to tell them sorry you did not make it to Heaven? Go back to sleep. . Why even bother the one who has slept. God would have saved his time leaving that person alone. The Second Death is mentioned in Revelation several times. Here is one example
· Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 21 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
There are 2 or 3 others in Revelation talking of this second death one can read of for full proof God told us more than once if you believe there is no Lake of fire. Explain why God says there is a Lake of Fire for ever lasting. Explain why Jesus tells us gnashing and wailing of teeth. Does the one who is dead and unconscious Gnash and wail of teeth? . No they would not. But that is them in the grave. But when their spirit is called before God they are no longer in the grave. They were caste into the Lake of Fire.
So Romans 6:23 is also talking of the second death, sin that causes death. When we understand this we now know why Jesus had to die on the cross. Jesus suffered for our sins so that we would not. Jesus died and brought from the dead by God the Father. He Jesus the first born from the dead was given life. He that was given life also gives us the gift of life. Not just this life. Not the Physical but the spiritual eternal life.
I pleaded to God if I was god I would make a prison though. People would only live in prison stay locked behind the door never to see anyone else again. This was my version of Hell the way I wanted it to be. I kept making Hell in my mind a more pleasant place to satisfy what I believe God should do.
But there then became a problem in this thinking…. Wait a minute though…. I’m not God….I’m a human being. If I am not God then I can’t think neither can I judge and nor can I reason how God reasons with things.
Spending all my time trying to change God’s reason or how Hell should really be I was judging God himself and the reason why God does things. How can I, as being the dust of the Earth (Genesis 2 verse 7) the created being tell God, the Almighty, the Eternal God, who declares to us He know all things a mortal being telling God what to do? This was a Revelation. Hell is not my way neither our reasoning what is fair. It would just not seem right to place a Judgment on anyone like this. But for God that is not the case.
How do you see sin? How does God see sin? Actually many of us see sin as an oops I dropped my sandwich on the floor. . OK fine I will make a new one. . In the eyes of God sin is very detestable to God. He the Lord hates sin. . God hates sin more than He hates anything else. The character is God is a Holy God. He is righteous, Holy, loving and true.
But God that loves is the same God who judges evil and sin. God is the king, the Lord even the Judge of all nations. We are taught in the Bible God judges both the righteous and the wicked. Everyone therefore no matter what one has done will be judged. The righteous will be judged in Beama which judges only our works. The works itself are burned up. But yet they that believe are saved and are rewarded by those works that did not burn up. . The wicked on the other hand went to the Great White Throne Judgment. They were not invited to Beama Judgment. They have denied the Lord or even them that did not listen to God. There is no second chance to make things up in the white Throne Judgment. So this is absolutely the very one place we ourselves never ever want to go to. And we Witness to others also not be of the White Throne judgment. .
Take a look at Daniel chapter 12. See Michael the Angel calls them from the dust of the Earth. Both the good and the wicked shall be called from their sleep. For they were dead waiting for judgment. This state was not Eternal it is called ‘The First Death’ The first Death everyone will see. The only ones not to see this are those when Jesus returns, those alive to be caught up with him. They won’t die but their bodies will change.
Jesus says in John Chapter 3 one must be born again by the spirit and by water. Jesus says there is a physical birth and there is also a spiritual birth. Our second birth actually happens when we meet the Lord in the air we become as of Spirit. But one might say this birth began when we were alive. But actually in this life we are in the state of as being a baby in the mother. We are being nurtured being in the stomach is part of the birth process. But it is after death when life will be eternal. In our flesh we can not proclaim we have eternal life. Only when we have those glorified bodies we could say this.
So even also there is a second birth of life. The physical life and the birth of the spirit it’s also the same with death too. First there is a physical death but there is also a spiritual death. This called the Second Death. See when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed everyone died and was destroyed but never to return. You say that is everlasting and that is true. I’m sure we will never see those places again. . Take a look at Daniel 12 the wicked are called from their sleep even as the righteous.
2 Many people who have already died will live again. Some of them will wake up to have life forever, but some will wake up to find shame and disgrace forever.
So this is proof ‘The First Death of being in the grave was not an eternal state of being. The spirit ‘not the flesh’ stands before God .The spirit will be judged the Second Death. . 2 Deaths can not mean eternal since the second shows Death one and Death 2 were separate events. . Would God call someone from the dead to judge the wicked just to tell them sorry you did not make it to Heaven? Go back to sleep. . Why even bother the one who has slept. God would have saved his time leaving that person alone. The Second Death is mentioned in Revelation several times. Here is one example
· Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 21 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
There are 2 or 3 others in Revelation talking of this second death one can read of for full proof God told us more than once if you believe there is no Lake of fire. Explain why God says there is a Lake of Fire for ever lasting. Explain why Jesus tells us gnashing and wailing of teeth. Does the one who is dead and unconscious Gnash and wail of teeth? . No they would not. But that is them in the grave. But when their spirit is called before God they are no longer in the grave. They were caste into the Lake of Fire.
So Romans 6:23 is also talking of the second death, sin that causes death. When we understand this we now know why Jesus had to die on the cross. Jesus suffered for our sins so that we would not. Jesus died and brought from the dead by God the Father. He Jesus the first born from the dead was given life. He that was given life also gives us the gift of life. Not just this life. Not the Physical but the spiritual eternal life.
T
Tristan
Guest
That's not a logical argument. You can't say that a "nice" God is just wishful thinking and "I used to think that once." You can't accuse me of making up my own version when I am making a case both logically AND scripturally. This has nothing to do with not being God. I could use that exact argument against you. You're assuming that your perspective is right FIRST and then assuming I'm making my own up. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. In a debate, two legitimate sides are given an equal playing field. Neither of us starts out "correct".
Yes, we will all be judged. You, me and my neighbour will stand before a holy God on judgment day. God will make the judgment as to whether or not I have demonstrated faith in him and accepted his gift of grace...but our works aren't judged. No. Find me a scripture please that says our works are burned up and judged. Salvation is not works based. Salvation is based on faith and faith alone! Also, find me a scripture where there are two judgments. I am not aware of any scriptures that speak of the judgment you're talking about. I need scripture, please.
There is a first death, a bodily one, but not everyone will die. There will be people living when Jesus returns. In Romans the wages of sin are death, but the bodily death is not the wage... because not every sinner dies the bodily death. Some are alive when he returns! We may lose our physical bodies, but there is no death involved there.
I don't consider it a spiritual death. I consider it to be a metaphorical death where the old ways pass away. The Bible is full of beautiful symbolism and metaphor. It's easy to come up with an image of what Jesus speaks of in John 3. Being born again of the Holy Spirit. I can say now that I am saved because I have faith and have accepted the grace of God. There is virtually no doubt in my mind of this. The Holy Spirit is in me. I'm still sinful, but I am a follower of Christ and I am saved. Now.
Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of this eternal fire. They were obliterated. When the time comes, they will be judged and will perish eternally...but they have to be judged like the rest of us.
The whole soul is judged. Not just this or that. God judges the entire entity. This occurs once. The first death is but a sleep, the second death is permanent and immutable. You cease to exist completely. Nothing of you remains. Yes, it's the second death. DEATH. There is no consciousness in death. There is no pain in death. You are annihilated forever. Jesus death is a replacement for ours. He paid our death penalty. He didn't spend eternity in torment for us. He died for us. If there is a literal Hell, his death is meaningless. The purpose of his death was to pay the price for us.
Yes, we will all be judged. You, me and my neighbour will stand before a holy God on judgment day. God will make the judgment as to whether or not I have demonstrated faith in him and accepted his gift of grace...but our works aren't judged. No. Find me a scripture please that says our works are burned up and judged. Salvation is not works based. Salvation is based on faith and faith alone! Also, find me a scripture where there are two judgments. I am not aware of any scriptures that speak of the judgment you're talking about. I need scripture, please.
There is a first death, a bodily one, but not everyone will die. There will be people living when Jesus returns. In Romans the wages of sin are death, but the bodily death is not the wage... because not every sinner dies the bodily death. Some are alive when he returns! We may lose our physical bodies, but there is no death involved there.
I don't consider it a spiritual death. I consider it to be a metaphorical death where the old ways pass away. The Bible is full of beautiful symbolism and metaphor. It's easy to come up with an image of what Jesus speaks of in John 3. Being born again of the Holy Spirit. I can say now that I am saved because I have faith and have accepted the grace of God. There is virtually no doubt in my mind of this. The Holy Spirit is in me. I'm still sinful, but I am a follower of Christ and I am saved. Now.
Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of this eternal fire. They were obliterated. When the time comes, they will be judged and will perish eternally...but they have to be judged like the rest of us.
The whole soul is judged. Not just this or that. God judges the entire entity. This occurs once. The first death is but a sleep, the second death is permanent and immutable. You cease to exist completely. Nothing of you remains. Yes, it's the second death. DEATH. There is no consciousness in death. There is no pain in death. You are annihilated forever. Jesus death is a replacement for ours. He paid our death penalty. He didn't spend eternity in torment for us. He died for us. If there is a literal Hell, his death is meaningless. The purpose of his death was to pay the price for us.
I would like to reply to those who believe that Hell is just the grave, and that there is no eternal torment.
The spirit is eternal. Even when this physical body dies, the spirit lives on. So where do the non-believers' spirits go?
Revelation 20:13-14 states, "The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death."
This is what I have concluded from reading this passage.
I am not sure where the non-believers' spirits are right now, but on the Judgment Day, they will be judged "according to their deeds", AND THEN they will be "thrown into the lake of fire." I do not believe that the lake of fire is just a figure of speech.
The spirit is eternal. Even when this physical body dies, the spirit lives on. So where do the non-believers' spirits go?
Revelation 20:13-14 states, "The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death."
This is what I have concluded from reading this passage.
I am not sure where the non-believers' spirits are right now, but on the Judgment Day, they will be judged "according to their deeds", AND THEN they will be "thrown into the lake of fire." I do not believe that the lake of fire is just a figure of speech.
T
Tristan
Guest
The spirit is not immortal. It can die. Second death? I don't understand how people don't see second death as being a death.
WordsintoHarmony
Member
There are 2 kinds of Judgments. Believers can not go to the Great white Throne Judgment. God can’t bring the Believers in the same place He brings to Non Believers. Anyways no one is judged 2 times. People are just judged as a believer and being saved or a Non Believer and not being saved. Believed is not limited to existence alone. Believe also means to Obey.
If you want to believe that when one dies that they will be in a state of unconsciousness.. Not knowing it’s your life to make that choice. Believe this all you want if that is your faith.
But in my faith I will testify these words in the Bible which I believe is a true Biblical take on that state of a person after one has died to the one who is not saved.
Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus NKJV
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Now after reading this what do you see? The Bible says Lazarus died and also the rich man. Lazarus went to a place called Abrahams Bosom. The Rich man went to a place called Hades. Notice this is a description after the rich man both died and was buried in his grave. Now we see the rich man in the grave. It says he is in ‘Torment’ But how can the Bible say this? Isn’t one dead supposed to be in a state of not knowing anything? The dead as you described would not take notice of “Torment”. Because you say after death there is no suffering.
See the rich man even after dying used his voice. He that man who was “Dead” asked that someone please to give him water. He the rich man said he wanted water to cool himself down. The Rich man was told it was impossible to do this. No one can get over to his side. The dead man was able to see, hear, feel, he had a conversation and he begged for relief from his torment. .
If you believe that Luke sixteen verses 19 to 31 is an allegory then you’re going to have to explain how this allegory thinking of yours should make these descriptions after being buried from one’s death. . You’re going to have to show how this Hades torment and flame has the same meaning as being in a state of not knowing peace or no suffering. You’re going to have to reason with Jesus saying’ gnashing and wailing of teeth. You will have to reason when the Bible tells us those who names is not in the Book of Life was caste into the Lake of Fire which they joined the Devil. You will have to reason what the Bible says about these dead people. They will not rest day or night while the person was dead at that time. These are all descriptions of a person who was not saved after dying what would happen to them. .
If you choose to believe that Luke sixteen is also a death of not suffering then I will put you in the category with Pre Trib Rapture. If you don’t believe what most churches taught for centuries a Hell with fire you Tristan is going to prove the Churches of all Ages you are more correct with your theology than almost every Bible teacher in all history. You and the Jehovah’s Witnesses can believe this way if you choose to Translate and believe this way. . Everyone has shared the testimony so far.
So you believe all this is an allegory? You think the words torment Flames can also comfort Christians to know the Bible here is speaking of Death of not knowing being in Peace of sleeping. You won’t convince most of us Torment and flames mean Peace and silence. Just as your not going to convince that Hate is Love and Love is Hate. Or being awake means being asleep or laughing is the same as crying. I take this part of the bible opposite from the Translation you believe of. All the descriptions of after Death are used with emphasis of gnashing and wailing of teach. To be cut down as a tree thrown in the flames. But not only death but notice we see it did say “after” dead and “after” being buried. Your going to have to explain to convince most of us how ‘After’ the rich man died’ ‘After “He was buried” why the Bible is using these words we know as horrifying suffering. . God has told us what happens now in this life. God is also on the other side of Life. God also tell us what happens when we go to the grave just like the Rich man did. .
We need to change the Translation of this? Will it make us feel better? Death still to the one not saved is not to suffer. But even the believer does not suffer. So then you say both the believer and even the non believer will not suffer. So it seems in some way the saved and unsaved has both won a prize. The one saved can acknowledge his prize in consciousness who did not suffer. The one not saved got a prize not knowing this also who did not suffer. . If the church were to teach this way most anyone would go to church. They would have no fear of Judgment. Everyone in some way or another will be at peace.
· Proverbs 9:10
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Proverbs 9:9-11 (in Context) Proverbs 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
If you want to believe that when one dies that they will be in a state of unconsciousness.. Not knowing it’s your life to make that choice. Believe this all you want if that is your faith.
But in my faith I will testify these words in the Bible which I believe is a true Biblical take on that state of a person after one has died to the one who is not saved.
Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus NKJV
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Now after reading this what do you see? The Bible says Lazarus died and also the rich man. Lazarus went to a place called Abrahams Bosom. The Rich man went to a place called Hades. Notice this is a description after the rich man both died and was buried in his grave. Now we see the rich man in the grave. It says he is in ‘Torment’ But how can the Bible say this? Isn’t one dead supposed to be in a state of not knowing anything? The dead as you described would not take notice of “Torment”. Because you say after death there is no suffering.
See the rich man even after dying used his voice. He that man who was “Dead” asked that someone please to give him water. He the rich man said he wanted water to cool himself down. The Rich man was told it was impossible to do this. No one can get over to his side. The dead man was able to see, hear, feel, he had a conversation and he begged for relief from his torment. .
If you believe that Luke sixteen verses 19 to 31 is an allegory then you’re going to have to explain how this allegory thinking of yours should make these descriptions after being buried from one’s death. . You’re going to have to show how this Hades torment and flame has the same meaning as being in a state of not knowing peace or no suffering. You’re going to have to reason with Jesus saying’ gnashing and wailing of teeth. You will have to reason when the Bible tells us those who names is not in the Book of Life was caste into the Lake of Fire which they joined the Devil. You will have to reason what the Bible says about these dead people. They will not rest day or night while the person was dead at that time. These are all descriptions of a person who was not saved after dying what would happen to them. .
If you choose to believe that Luke sixteen is also a death of not suffering then I will put you in the category with Pre Trib Rapture. If you don’t believe what most churches taught for centuries a Hell with fire you Tristan is going to prove the Churches of all Ages you are more correct with your theology than almost every Bible teacher in all history. You and the Jehovah’s Witnesses can believe this way if you choose to Translate and believe this way. . Everyone has shared the testimony so far.
So you believe all this is an allegory? You think the words torment Flames can also comfort Christians to know the Bible here is speaking of Death of not knowing being in Peace of sleeping. You won’t convince most of us Torment and flames mean Peace and silence. Just as your not going to convince that Hate is Love and Love is Hate. Or being awake means being asleep or laughing is the same as crying. I take this part of the bible opposite from the Translation you believe of. All the descriptions of after Death are used with emphasis of gnashing and wailing of teach. To be cut down as a tree thrown in the flames. But not only death but notice we see it did say “after” dead and “after” being buried. Your going to have to explain to convince most of us how ‘After’ the rich man died’ ‘After “He was buried” why the Bible is using these words we know as horrifying suffering. . God has told us what happens now in this life. God is also on the other side of Life. God also tell us what happens when we go to the grave just like the Rich man did. .
We need to change the Translation of this? Will it make us feel better? Death still to the one not saved is not to suffer. But even the believer does not suffer. So then you say both the believer and even the non believer will not suffer. So it seems in some way the saved and unsaved has both won a prize. The one saved can acknowledge his prize in consciousness who did not suffer. The one not saved got a prize not knowing this also who did not suffer. . If the church were to teach this way most anyone would go to church. They would have no fear of Judgment. Everyone in some way or another will be at peace.
· Proverbs 9:10
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Proverbs 9:9-11 (in Context) Proverbs 9 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
T
Tristan
Guest
The word used in Greek is Hades, which is the replacement for the Hebrew Sheol. Even if I were to be taking this as some sort of reference to the consequences at the end of time, it is referring to nothing more than the first death...Sheol...the grave. I don't believe this is anything but a parable. It's even right in a section of Luke with a few parables in it. In a literary sense it makes more sense that it would be one.
It's a parable of the conscience and we shouldn't take anything related to death literally. It's even written with a Jewish spin (like the reference to the good and bad part of Sheol). The parable is about a renunciation of greed and it's a call to treat the poor with justice. This is similar to the prophet Amos who directed a curse toward the complacent wealthy who stuff themselves richly while starving themselves spiritually and something Jesus was frequently talking about. This is an example of taking a parable too far. Jesus was not in the slightest talking about the nature of death.
That parable is influenced by Jewish teachings on Sheol (which you'll also find in the book of Enoch, interestingly enough). The split between one side (good vs. bad) of Sheol and the other is a Jewish construct. The issue is that Sheol is the grave...the first death. {Hades (Greek) = Sheol (Hebrew)} You can't take the parable that far. Jesus was speaking to Jews at the time, so he used the context of Jewish understanding of the nature of death to make his point. It was not a commentary on death, it was a commentary on the rich and he was communicating effectively by speaking to the understanding of his audience.
Note: It doesn't say there WILL BE no rest for the wicked. It says there IS no rest for the wicked. This is very important. Verb tenses! It's a whole different topic, but basically the wicked in the present have no rest. They're perpetually focused on profit in some manner and advancing their own agenda.
"If you don’t believe what most churches taught for centuries a Hell with fire you Tristan is going to prove the Churches of all Ages you are more correct with your theology than almost every Bible teacher in all history." This is an ad hominem attack. Please refrain from posting this sort of thing. It detracts from the discussion and does nothing to discuss the topic. Thank you.
If you want to believe that God would torture people for not accepting his gift of salvation, go ahead. That's your right, but I respectfully disagree.
"Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’16 So the last will be first, and the first last.” -Matthew 20:15+16
Your last paragraph was actually the one I take issue with strongly and so I'd like to take a moment to reveal what I have discovered about God's nature in scripture. My favourite parable is the one of the workers in the vineyard. As you know, all the workers get paid a day's wages, regardless of how long they worked. To top it off, Jesus tells us that the last will be first and the first last. I used to brush that aside and not think deeply about it. After taking time to study, I realized that it's telling us that not everyone gets what they deserve. The people at the beginning of the day deserved to get more than the ones that came during the last hour...but they all got paid the same wage.
God doesn't give us what we deserve. How are we different from other sinners aside from accepting God's grace? We aren't. We are the same sinners and deserve the same punishment...death. The wages of our sin. God has no reason to torture people who don't accept his grace. Just because they deserve to suffer for what they've done doesn't mean they will.
The torment is before the final death. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is when they realize they were wrong and will perish forever. It is God's mercy being manifest. They will perish eternally. They receive the wages for their sin.
It's a parable of the conscience and we shouldn't take anything related to death literally. It's even written with a Jewish spin (like the reference to the good and bad part of Sheol). The parable is about a renunciation of greed and it's a call to treat the poor with justice. This is similar to the prophet Amos who directed a curse toward the complacent wealthy who stuff themselves richly while starving themselves spiritually and something Jesus was frequently talking about. This is an example of taking a parable too far. Jesus was not in the slightest talking about the nature of death.
That parable is influenced by Jewish teachings on Sheol (which you'll also find in the book of Enoch, interestingly enough). The split between one side (good vs. bad) of Sheol and the other is a Jewish construct. The issue is that Sheol is the grave...the first death. {Hades (Greek) = Sheol (Hebrew)} You can't take the parable that far. Jesus was speaking to Jews at the time, so he used the context of Jewish understanding of the nature of death to make his point. It was not a commentary on death, it was a commentary on the rich and he was communicating effectively by speaking to the understanding of his audience.
Note: It doesn't say there WILL BE no rest for the wicked. It says there IS no rest for the wicked. This is very important. Verb tenses! It's a whole different topic, but basically the wicked in the present have no rest. They're perpetually focused on profit in some manner and advancing their own agenda.
"If you don’t believe what most churches taught for centuries a Hell with fire you Tristan is going to prove the Churches of all Ages you are more correct with your theology than almost every Bible teacher in all history." This is an ad hominem attack. Please refrain from posting this sort of thing. It detracts from the discussion and does nothing to discuss the topic. Thank you.
If you want to believe that God would torture people for not accepting his gift of salvation, go ahead. That's your right, but I respectfully disagree.
"Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’16 So the last will be first, and the first last.” -Matthew 20:15+16
Your last paragraph was actually the one I take issue with strongly and so I'd like to take a moment to reveal what I have discovered about God's nature in scripture. My favourite parable is the one of the workers in the vineyard. As you know, all the workers get paid a day's wages, regardless of how long they worked. To top it off, Jesus tells us that the last will be first and the first last. I used to brush that aside and not think deeply about it. After taking time to study, I realized that it's telling us that not everyone gets what they deserve. The people at the beginning of the day deserved to get more than the ones that came during the last hour...but they all got paid the same wage.
God doesn't give us what we deserve. How are we different from other sinners aside from accepting God's grace? We aren't. We are the same sinners and deserve the same punishment...death. The wages of our sin. God has no reason to torture people who don't accept his grace. Just because they deserve to suffer for what they've done doesn't mean they will.
The torment is before the final death. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is when they realize they were wrong and will perish forever. It is God's mercy being manifest. They will perish eternally. They receive the wages for their sin.
In Luke 16, Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. When both of them died, Lazarus went to be with Abraham and the rich man went to the "place of the dead."
Now, no one knows about Hell better than Jesus do, and here we see Him saying that the rich man was in torment. There is even the word "flames."
If you believe that Hell, or perhaps the First Death, is just a sleep, then you will have to explain why Christ mentioned about torment in "the place of the dead." If there is really no torment of flames, then He would be deceiving, and that is not Christ.
"God has no reason to torture people who don't accept his grace. Just because they deserve to suffer for what they've done doesn't mean they will."
True, just because they deserve it doesn't mean they will. Like us. However, God DOES have a reason to send people to Hell. It is because their sins have not been forgiven. Our sins have been forgiven when we accepted His grace, but those who have not accepted it are not forgiven.
Now, no one knows about Hell better than Jesus do, and here we see Him saying that the rich man was in torment. There is even the word "flames."
If you believe that Hell, or perhaps the First Death, is just a sleep, then you will have to explain why Christ mentioned about torment in "the place of the dead." If there is really no torment of flames, then He would be deceiving, and that is not Christ.
"God has no reason to torture people who don't accept his grace. Just because they deserve to suffer for what they've done doesn't mean they will."
True, just because they deserve it doesn't mean they will. Like us. However, God DOES have a reason to send people to Hell. It is because their sins have not been forgiven. Our sins have been forgiven when we accepted His grace, but those who have not accepted it are not forgiven.
T
Tristan
Guest
That doesn't address my point about taking the parable too far. Jesus was using social context to make his point easier to understand for his audience. That doesn't mean he was telling us about what it's like to be dead. Does this mean we go to some form of purgatory after we die? Keep in mind we're talking Sheol here...the grave. If you take the parable too far, it leads you to the wrong conclusions.
WordsintoHarmony
Member
In those cities where Lot dwelt people sinned. Even in the place of Abraham they sinned because everyone after all sins. But in the eyes of God those places of Lot sinned greatly that brought upon the wrath of God. . How did God respond to these sins? He uses fire from out of Heaven. He melted these cities into ashes and even Lot’s wife who had turned back into a pillar of salt. This is not a pleasant death.
Number one this is a literal fire. This was God’s anger and God’s wrath. So it’s then not impossible for God to choose fire for judgment in how He reacts to sin. If God can do something once in the Bible He can the Lord repeat Himself. . God more than once divided bodies of water. Not just the Red Sea. If God judged the cities of Lot He also can judge other cities. . those like Tyre and Sidon.
Woe to the Impenitent Cities
Luke 10 NKJV
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.14 But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.15 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades.16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
See now notice that Jesus said to those in these cities that the judgment would be worse then in Sodom. Obviously then he is not comparing Sodom to the judgment day. So the fire on Sodom can’t be worse then hell fire itself.
A true Christian should not desire anyone to see the wrath of God that abides. . After all we are called to share the gospel so that those will be saved even of our own selves included. This is not a preaching of throwing stones. It is a teaching to show the fire is literal and is called Hell the Lake of Fire. .
In Matthew 3 it tells us about the unquenchable fire. This means a fire that never goes out. The fire we have on Earth can one way or another be extinguished. Or in some case Lava flowing down cools down and takes its place. Look around and you won’t find any eternal unquenchable fire. The Sun, the Stars? Not even them. This fiery Star will last billions of years perhaps. Not forever. So Mathew 3 can not agree with Sodom and Gomorrah in that matter of aspect. The cities of Lot were temporary to show us an example of Gods judgment. . But Revelation shows us that this fire is eternal and agrees with Matthew 3. How then can eternal fire explain how one would sleep at peace? Even if that was symbolic that would not be a true connection how to relate eternal fire with eternal rest in the grave. .
See that it says caste in the lake of fire. Caste also means to throw, to toss. We don’t throw people in a casket. We place them in the casket. There is no connection of one being caste and one being silently in the grave. But being caste into fire as said only can make sense how these words fit together. .
But would God really judge people this way? We did not deserve to suffer like this. Everyone sinned after all. Number 1 what is God judging people for? The answer He is doing this because of sin. Does God leave sin alone? No. . In the Old Testament He required animals of sacrifice. Should these animals pay a price for human sins? According to God blood was used to be shed to save those from their sins.
Jesus became the living sacrifice. Not only that He was hit in the face, kicked in the stomach, shoved on the ground, spit at, thorns penetrating through His skull, and a cats whip lashing off chunks of flesh, one nail in each hand, then in both feet, black and blue all over and blood drenching to the ground. Did Jesus deserve to die like this? Did He deserve to suffer? Jesus did not deserve to die or suffer like this. But God the Father sent Jesus His only Son John 3:16. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Then read in Matthew 1:21. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
This shows Jesus was to be born to save the people from their sins. . Jesus purpose was then to suffer to be tormented to be in great pain. So if God the Father sent Jesus to die for our Sins then it is also likely and even so God created Hell and fire to punish sin. . This is the difference of the believer and non believer. Those who reject Jesus receive eternal death since they did not accept Him as Lord and Savior. . Those who accept Jesus was saved.
Should we say that the wicked even those that killed millions should rest in peace? It would not be fair God made His own son to suffer and to let these wicked people rest in a peaceful eternity.
It is the Law of God that can not ever be broken. Sin must be paid for. . Only those who believe Jesus will then pay for their sins that will have eternal life. . Those who rejected Jesus…Jesus will not pay the atonement of sin. So the sin will fall on all those who will pay in the wages that is called death.. .To be more specific the second death which is the final and spiritual death. That’s why Romans 6:23 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.. .
There are also parables of eternal life. We believe these parables show us in what state we would be in. . No gnashing of teeth to describe the parables of eternal life. Jesus says the Kingdom of God is like. .. Parable. Sin to compare. Jesus compares life and He compares death. He spoke about the things we can see to understand those things we are not able to see now. When the rich man said get me water. What does that have to do with being asleep? He the rich man asked that his brothers be told not to go to this place to also suffer as He does. His brothers would all die. They would see death. So how would the rich man prevent this? Even those good also die.
Look how this agrees with Matthew 3 unquenchable fire and Revelation Lake of Fire. This fire never goes out. Not even water would do the trick. Not even God will bring Him out. This parable only shows pain, suffering and torment. Even if the fire was not real those words of suffering can not be disregarded. The parable is after death. . What happens after dying? I have to connect this with Matthew 3 and Revelation second Death all to make sense. Because if Jesus died and suffered for our sins would then mean separation from God in a place called Hell of eternal Fire.
As the starting poster turnorburn posted this is not that He wanted anyone to go just the opposite to never see this place. But even God desires shown in scripture He is patient does not desire anyone should perish. He is a God of love and a God of grace. . But that grace is given only to them who choose the Son and the life. Those that have and is and will believe.
Number one this is a literal fire. This was God’s anger and God’s wrath. So it’s then not impossible for God to choose fire for judgment in how He reacts to sin. If God can do something once in the Bible He can the Lord repeat Himself. . God more than once divided bodies of water. Not just the Red Sea. If God judged the cities of Lot He also can judge other cities. . those like Tyre and Sidon.
Woe to the Impenitent Cities
Luke 10 NKJV
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.14 But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.15 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades.16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
See now notice that Jesus said to those in these cities that the judgment would be worse then in Sodom. Obviously then he is not comparing Sodom to the judgment day. So the fire on Sodom can’t be worse then hell fire itself.
A true Christian should not desire anyone to see the wrath of God that abides. . After all we are called to share the gospel so that those will be saved even of our own selves included. This is not a preaching of throwing stones. It is a teaching to show the fire is literal and is called Hell the Lake of Fire. .
In Matthew 3 it tells us about the unquenchable fire. This means a fire that never goes out. The fire we have on Earth can one way or another be extinguished. Or in some case Lava flowing down cools down and takes its place. Look around and you won’t find any eternal unquenchable fire. The Sun, the Stars? Not even them. This fiery Star will last billions of years perhaps. Not forever. So Mathew 3 can not agree with Sodom and Gomorrah in that matter of aspect. The cities of Lot were temporary to show us an example of Gods judgment. . But Revelation shows us that this fire is eternal and agrees with Matthew 3. How then can eternal fire explain how one would sleep at peace? Even if that was symbolic that would not be a true connection how to relate eternal fire with eternal rest in the grave. .
See that it says caste in the lake of fire. Caste also means to throw, to toss. We don’t throw people in a casket. We place them in the casket. There is no connection of one being caste and one being silently in the grave. But being caste into fire as said only can make sense how these words fit together. .
But would God really judge people this way? We did not deserve to suffer like this. Everyone sinned after all. Number 1 what is God judging people for? The answer He is doing this because of sin. Does God leave sin alone? No. . In the Old Testament He required animals of sacrifice. Should these animals pay a price for human sins? According to God blood was used to be shed to save those from their sins.
Jesus became the living sacrifice. Not only that He was hit in the face, kicked in the stomach, shoved on the ground, spit at, thorns penetrating through His skull, and a cats whip lashing off chunks of flesh, one nail in each hand, then in both feet, black and blue all over and blood drenching to the ground. Did Jesus deserve to die like this? Did He deserve to suffer? Jesus did not deserve to die or suffer like this. But God the Father sent Jesus His only Son John 3:16. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Then read in Matthew 1:21. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
This shows Jesus was to be born to save the people from their sins. . Jesus purpose was then to suffer to be tormented to be in great pain. So if God the Father sent Jesus to die for our Sins then it is also likely and even so God created Hell and fire to punish sin. . This is the difference of the believer and non believer. Those who reject Jesus receive eternal death since they did not accept Him as Lord and Savior. . Those who accept Jesus was saved.
Should we say that the wicked even those that killed millions should rest in peace? It would not be fair God made His own son to suffer and to let these wicked people rest in a peaceful eternity.
It is the Law of God that can not ever be broken. Sin must be paid for. . Only those who believe Jesus will then pay for their sins that will have eternal life. . Those who rejected Jesus…Jesus will not pay the atonement of sin. So the sin will fall on all those who will pay in the wages that is called death.. .To be more specific the second death which is the final and spiritual death. That’s why Romans 6:23 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.. .
There are also parables of eternal life. We believe these parables show us in what state we would be in. . No gnashing of teeth to describe the parables of eternal life. Jesus says the Kingdom of God is like. .. Parable. Sin to compare. Jesus compares life and He compares death. He spoke about the things we can see to understand those things we are not able to see now. When the rich man said get me water. What does that have to do with being asleep? He the rich man asked that his brothers be told not to go to this place to also suffer as He does. His brothers would all die. They would see death. So how would the rich man prevent this? Even those good also die.
Look how this agrees with Matthew 3 unquenchable fire and Revelation Lake of Fire. This fire never goes out. Not even water would do the trick. Not even God will bring Him out. This parable only shows pain, suffering and torment. Even if the fire was not real those words of suffering can not be disregarded. The parable is after death. . What happens after dying? I have to connect this with Matthew 3 and Revelation second Death all to make sense. Because if Jesus died and suffered for our sins would then mean separation from God in a place called Hell of eternal Fire.
As the starting poster turnorburn posted this is not that He wanted anyone to go just the opposite to never see this place. But even God desires shown in scripture He is patient does not desire anyone should perish. He is a God of love and a God of grace. . But that grace is given only to them who choose the Son and the life. Those that have and is and will believe.
T
Tristan
Guest
Yes, they died. For all we know God used a volcano...which is still fire and brimstone. They perished. Are they still living? Are they still burning? No, they were wiped out and no longer exist. They will face the final judgment and God will decide whether they perish for good in the final cleansing fire. Gone once and for all. Everyone will be judged, yes.
It doesn't say it will be worse than Sodom. It will be worse than Tyre and Sidon...who remain unjudged. The point doesn't stand.
Even if there is a literal fire, it is consuming and it will annihilate everything. Death and Hades are thrown into the fire too. I don't see how those things can suffer. They aren't conscious. They aren't even alive (death and the grave are the opposite of life anyway).
Yes, the fire is unquenchable. That doesn't mean what is being burned will never be consumed. There are logical leaps being made here that don't fit the narrative. Also, does that mean God himself can't quench his own fire? This is like the mountain bigger than God can lift.
Jesus purpose wasn't to suffer. His purpose was to die for us. That is not something written in the text. The wages of sin are not suffering and then death or some sort of variant. Jesus paid the price...death. That is fully scriptural.
Ah! Wait a moment here. Who are you to say it's unfair that they perish forever and rest in peace instead of being tortured? Where is that written? That's the reason I brought up the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Not everyone gets what they deserve. The last will be first and the first will be last. It's up to God to decide what everyone gets.
This also disturbs me for a second reason. You are making the judgment that you are better than the person who kills millions.
"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?" -Romans 2:1-4
I am the same as the mass murderer because I have sinned. I deserve the same punishment as them...but we are not in a position to judge what others deserve or what they don't. That is God's job.
Yes, the wages of sin is death...not eternal torment. I'm sure Paul would have been clearer if that was the case.
The purpose of that parable is a warning against greed from those who are wealthy. It doesn't have to do with the nature of death. If you want to take that literally, then clearly Lazarus was literally in the bosom of Abraham and there is clearly a gulf between the two places that you can talk across...but can't get there. You either take the whole thing literally, or you take it to be a parable...like many Christians do.
It appears the latter half of my last post was completely ignored...the most important part. Here it is again for you:
"Your last paragraph was actually the one I take issue with strongly and so I'd like to take a moment to reveal what I have discovered about God's nature in scripture. My favourite parable is the one of the workers in the vineyard. As you know, all the workers get paid a day's wages, regardless of how long they worked. To top it off, Jesus tells us that the last will be first and the first last. I used to brush that aside and not think deeply about it. After taking time to study, I realized that it's telling us that not everyone gets what they deserve. The people at the beginning of the day deserved to get more than the ones that came during the last hour...but they all got paid the same wage.
God doesn't give us what we deserve. How are we different from other sinners aside from accepting God's grace? We aren't. We are the same sinners and deserve the same punishment...death. The wages of our sin. God has no reason to torture people who don't accept his grace. Just because they deserve to suffer for what they've done doesn't mean they will.
The torment is before the final death. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is when they realize they were wrong and will perish forever. It is God's mercy being manifest. They will perish eternally. They receive the wages for their sin."
It doesn't say it will be worse than Sodom. It will be worse than Tyre and Sidon...who remain unjudged. The point doesn't stand.
Even if there is a literal fire, it is consuming and it will annihilate everything. Death and Hades are thrown into the fire too. I don't see how those things can suffer. They aren't conscious. They aren't even alive (death and the grave are the opposite of life anyway).
Yes, the fire is unquenchable. That doesn't mean what is being burned will never be consumed. There are logical leaps being made here that don't fit the narrative. Also, does that mean God himself can't quench his own fire? This is like the mountain bigger than God can lift.
Jesus purpose wasn't to suffer. His purpose was to die for us. That is not something written in the text. The wages of sin are not suffering and then death or some sort of variant. Jesus paid the price...death. That is fully scriptural.
Ah! Wait a moment here. Who are you to say it's unfair that they perish forever and rest in peace instead of being tortured? Where is that written? That's the reason I brought up the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Not everyone gets what they deserve. The last will be first and the first will be last. It's up to God to decide what everyone gets.
This also disturbs me for a second reason. You are making the judgment that you are better than the person who kills millions.
"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?" -Romans 2:1-4
I am the same as the mass murderer because I have sinned. I deserve the same punishment as them...but we are not in a position to judge what others deserve or what they don't. That is God's job.
Yes, the wages of sin is death...not eternal torment. I'm sure Paul would have been clearer if that was the case.
The purpose of that parable is a warning against greed from those who are wealthy. It doesn't have to do with the nature of death. If you want to take that literally, then clearly Lazarus was literally in the bosom of Abraham and there is clearly a gulf between the two places that you can talk across...but can't get there. You either take the whole thing literally, or you take it to be a parable...like many Christians do.
It appears the latter half of my last post was completely ignored...the most important part. Here it is again for you:
"Your last paragraph was actually the one I take issue with strongly and so I'd like to take a moment to reveal what I have discovered about God's nature in scripture. My favourite parable is the one of the workers in the vineyard. As you know, all the workers get paid a day's wages, regardless of how long they worked. To top it off, Jesus tells us that the last will be first and the first last. I used to brush that aside and not think deeply about it. After taking time to study, I realized that it's telling us that not everyone gets what they deserve. The people at the beginning of the day deserved to get more than the ones that came during the last hour...but they all got paid the same wage.
God doesn't give us what we deserve. How are we different from other sinners aside from accepting God's grace? We aren't. We are the same sinners and deserve the same punishment...death. The wages of our sin. God has no reason to torture people who don't accept his grace. Just because they deserve to suffer for what they've done doesn't mean they will.
The torment is before the final death. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is when they realize they were wrong and will perish forever. It is God's mercy being manifest. They will perish eternally. They receive the wages for their sin."
Say Tristan could you show us from scripture where it says "God will decide whether they perish for good in the final cleansing fire" I'd be interested to know.. 
Thanks..
tob
Thanks..
tob
T
Tristan
Guest
If you'd like I can list a whole bunch of scriptures, but the best place to start is:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." -John 3:16
The word "perish" here is: apollymi which means "to destroy utterly" (http://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/apollymi)
It's about as clear as that.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." -John 3:16
The word "perish" here is: apollymi which means "to destroy utterly" (http://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/apollymi)
It's about as clear as that.
I believe this is just a matter of interpretation.
As for the idea that Jesus talked about suffering after death just to fit in with the people's understanding, I find it illogical.
There were many times when He said things that others did not understand. I believe He also corrected false beliefs ("The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"). So why should we think that Christ deliberately encouraged a possibly wrong belief concerning Hell?
As for the idea that Jesus talked about suffering after death just to fit in with the people's understanding, I find it illogical.
There were many times when He said things that others did not understand. I believe He also corrected false beliefs ("The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"). So why should we think that Christ deliberately encouraged a possibly wrong belief concerning Hell?
T
Tristan
Guest
Tristan said:
Where does it say: "God will decide whether they perish for good in the final cleansing fire" just one scripture will do..
Thanks..
tob
Where does it say: "God will decide whether they perish for good in the final cleansing fire" just one scripture will do..
Thanks..
tob
I believe that we should take this particular parable in a literal way. Just as we believe Christ was clear in indicating that the place "beside Abraham" and the "place of the dead" are separate and unbridgeable, so we should also take Christ's indication that the place of the dead is a place of torment.
T
Tristan
Guest
There is no literal verse. It's a logical conclusion. Do you like ignoring answers to questions?
T
Tristan
Guest
So right now there are dead people in torment? People are literally at the bosom of Abraham? Okay. I disagree but that's your choice.