HELL'S FIRST MOMENT.... THROUGHOUT ETERNITY

[Nathanael Chong]

I think we are gradually sliding off topic here. I respect your views, Tristan. Let's not start any hostility here.

God Bless!

 

[JLB]

Where did you ever come up with this doctrine? The Spirit man does not need to be resurrected? And what is the body that it should so require? Do you not know that which is written in the scriptures?

I'm still waiting for the scriptures that you are referring to.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If you don't have a body, everything is dead. A soul is comprised of a body an a spirit. Dust+breath from Genesis. If you take away one part, you are dead. Yes, people are physically dead. Their spirit returns to God, but they are still dead because the soul is incomplete.

According to Jesus, the dead are sleeping.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The body is dead, not the spirit.

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Moses and Elijah were not dead.

Abraham and Lazarus were not dead.

Samuel was not dead.


There bodies were dead, but they were not dead, as God calls Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive, when Moses saw the burning bush.

Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive when God spoke to Moses out of the burning bush.

The bodies were dead, but they are not a body, They are a spirit.

They are created in the image and likeness of God.

God is a Spirit.

Man is a spirit.

When the body dies, the spirit goes to be with the Lord if they are saved.

The Lord brings the saints with Him when he returns, as i have given the scriptures for this.


JLB

 

[Tristan]

I don't take offense easily, but I get heated quickly. I'm a passionate person...even more so about religion and philosophy. I'll be back tomorrow...err...today.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Tristan:

This lurker here can see where you are coming from and I agree with you. The idea of a spirit going on while the body is dead like a disembodied ghost or something comes from the "immortal soul doctrine", old Greek philosophy, and it was around in ages past. And if there's an "immortal soul" then it supports the idea of an ever-tormenting hell, or whatever else such an S&M God would do to such a person. However, when we look into the bible, we see there is no immortal soul, other than if a person, being a new creation in Christ being born again (resurrection) will live forever. And if no immortal soul, then the doctrine of an everlasting hell fails miserably, because the bible says the soul that sins will die. Not live forever in torment.

Now I know there will be those who shoot back some sort of parable, or isolated verse out of context to support the idea of "dying and going to heaven" even though Jesus plainly stated nobody ascended to heaven yet. All have died. But that was the whole point of the parables, to blind the eyes of those who think they understand (e.g. the Jews in his day) and I can see they're doing their job well just as he intended.

 

[JLB]

Tristan:

This lurker here can see where you are coming from and I agree with you. The idea of a spirit going on while the body is dead like a disembodied ghost or something comes from the "immortal soul doctrine", old Greek philosophy, and it was around in ages past. And if there's an "immortal soul" then it supports the idea of an ever-tormenting hell, or whatever else such an S&M God would do to such a person. However, when we look into the bible, we see there is no immortal soul, other than if a person, being a new creation in Christ being born again (resurrection) will live forever. And if no immortal soul, then the doctrine of an everlasting hell fails miserably, because the bible says the soul that sins will die. Not live forever in torment.

Now I know there will be those who shoot back some sort of parable, or isolated verse out of context to support the idea of "dying and going to heaven" even though Jesus plainly stated nobody ascended to heaven yet. All have died. But that was the whole point of the parables, to blind the eyes of those who think they understand (e.g. the Jews in his day) and I can see they're doing their job well just as he intended.

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Luke 16:22-26


What does this "parable" teach us?


JLB

 

[Tristan]

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Luke 16:22-26


What does this "parable" teach us?


JLB

The rich man is symbolic for the Jewish nation (who else would call out to Abraham?). They had been blessed by a knowledge of God and his plan of salvation for all mankind and are what you could call spiritually rich. Lazarus represents those in spiritual poverty...who are in this case probably the Gentiles at the time. They would have to be satisfied with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table...because the Jews had not been willing to share with the Gentiles. It must have been a well known metaphor, because Jesus used it in Matthew 15 as well.

Just before that parable, God had rebuked the Pharisees:

"And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God." -Luke 16:15

So the Jews had gone their lives enriching themselves and enjoying their lives, spending more time putting others down than they had helping them. They had received their reward. the whole parable is a warning against such behaviour. It's written in a heavily Jewish context with references to Abraham, regional metaphors, and Jewish theology about the grave.

Can we believe that all the saints are now gathered in Abraham’s bosom? (Man it must be big) If they are, in whose bosom does Abraham rest? If there is really a great gulf fixed between heaven and hell, how could the rich man possibly have been heard by Abraham? It's not a literal story, it's a parable.

 

[JLB]

The rich man is symbolic for the Jewish nation (who else would call out to Abraham?). They had been blessed by a knowledge of God and his plan of salvation for all mankind and are what you could call spiritually rich. Lazarus represents those in spiritual poverty...who are in this case probably the Gentiles at the time. They would have to be satisfied with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table...because the Jews had not been willing to share with the Gentiles. It must have been a well known metaphor, because Jesus used it in Matthew 15 as well.

Just before that parable, God had rebuked the Pharisees:

"And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God." -Luke 16:15

So the Jews had gone their lives enriching themselves and enjoying their lives, spending more time putting others down than they had helping them. They had received their reward. the whole parable is a warning against such behaviour. It's written in a heavily Jewish context with references to Abraham, regional metaphors, and Jewish theology about the grave.

Can we believe that all the saints are now gathered in Abraham’s bosom? (Man it must be big) If they are, in whose bosom does Abraham rest? If there is really a great gulf fixed between heaven and hell, how could the rich man possibly have been heard by Abraham? It's not a literal story, it's a parable.

What does this "parable" teach us?

 

[JLB]

23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man made this statement.

25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

Jesus said Abraham made this statement.

27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Jesus said the rich man made this statement.

29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

Jesus said Abraham made this statement.

Jesus quoted these statements made by these men.


If these men did not make these statements, then why would Jesus say they did?


Jesus does not make up stories about what other men say.

That would be lying.


JLB

 

[Tristan]

Whose bosom is Abraham in? How big is Abraham's bosom that so many people can fit in it? How does Abraham call across such a great chasm?

Jesus isn't lying because it's a parable. The parable is a warning to the Jews about their behaviour, as I outlined.

 

[WordsintoHarmony]

I agree with JLB. I just read the same thing tonight in a Bible sermon. Tristan you're taking this as a parable.
When Jesus speaks of a parable please study all of them. In the parable Jesus uses he will never use a persons name.
But if Jesus uses a persons name such as John the Baptist Jesus cam't make John the Baptist who is real to make him say
words that John the Baptist never said.
There 2 rules to remember Jesus does speak in parables but Jesus also explains parables too.
Whenever you see Jesus explaining a prable he's not only speaking plain and clear to the Disciples but also the readers as well.
So the testimony of Lazarus and the rich man plus Abraham who are all real people is told by Jesus a true acct...

let me share this section of the Bible the wheat and the tares. I'm only going to share this part where Jesus "explains" the exact literal meaning of the parable. So if you say that Jesus can't even explain his own parable then Jesus would be contradicting himself.
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

 

[Tristan]

I agree with JLB. I just read the same thing tonight in a Bible sermon. Tristan you're taking this as a parable.
When Jesus speaks of a parable please study all of them. In the parable Jesus uses he will never use a persons name.
But if Jesus uses a persons name such as John the Baptist Jesus cam't make John the Baptist who is real to make him say
words that John the Baptist never said.
There 2 rules to remember Jesus does speak in parables but Jesus also explains parables too.
Whenever you see Jesus explaining a prable he's not only speaking plain and clear to the Disciples but also the readers as well.
So the testimony of Lazarus and the rich man plus Abraham who are all real people is told by Jesus a true acct...

let me share this section of the Bible the wheat and the tares. I'm only going to share this part where Jesus "explains" the exact literal meaning of the parable. So if you say that Jesus can't even explain his own parable then Jesus would be contradicting himself.
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

There is no rule about parables that they can't have a name in them. Show me where that's written. Just because it's the only parable that has a name doesn't mean it can't be a parable. Just because he doesn't explain doesn't mean it's not a parable. Please show me where these elusive rules are, and why they're rules.

You also didn't answer my questions. If you want this to be literal, we need answers to those questions.

 

[JLB]

Whose bosom is Abraham in? How big is Abraham's bosom that so many people can fit in it? How does Abraham call across such a great chasm?

Jesus isn't lying because it's a parable. The parable is a warning to the Jews about their behaviour, as I outlined.

This is a warning to all, about their behavior.

First to the Jew, and then to the Greek.

How can anyone ignore the very plain language of this story.

Jesus made statements about what others said.

Jesus used real names and identified a real place.

There was no mention of a parable in the preceding verses with language such as, "now hear the parable".

There is no parabolic language used within the story, such as "the kingdom of heaven is likened to"...

Why would Jesus teach us that this man was in torment in hell, if there was no torment or there was no hell?

How does that teach kingdom truth.

Why does the scriptures teach that Jesus was in the "heart" of the earth for three days and three nights.

Why does the scriptures teach us that Jesus went down in the heart of the earth and preached to spirits, if spirits "perish" at death.

The scriptures teach us that Samuel came up from the heart of the earth and spoke to Saul about Saul's future death as well as his son's.

Samuel had conscience awareness about Saul and his future, as well as the results of the coming battle.


15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." 20 Then immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night. 1 Samuel 28:15-20


Jesus described an actual place, using real names of real people, and gave an account of their life after their physical body has deceased.

In His account, Jesus did not describe how big Abraham's Bosom was, which was the name of the place where old testament saints were kept until He was revealed to them.

Jesus said Abraham called across the chasm, and I believe what Jesus said.

Jesus said Abraham spoke to the rich man, who had a conscience awareness about his family on earth, and I believe what Jesus said.

You asked how Abraham called across such a great chasm?

Answer: The same way the angel was able to proclaim these word from the midst of heaven to the people on earth -

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11


JLB

 

[WordsintoHarmony]

Sure we may not understand all parables and Jesus does not explain all of them but Jesus does explain some of them. So when we see in the 4 Gospels when Jesus explains his own parables then Jesus is giving us the meaning of his own parables with a literal usage of words.

1. Matthew 25:41
   Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
   Matthew 25:40-42 (in Context) Matthew 25 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Should I take these words as a parable? To those that are on left side and to that of the devil and the angels can my mind really say that those on the left side and the devil and the angels mean something else rather then what has been told? No but Jesus says they will go into eternal fire.
But as the Disciple in Matthew 24 Lord please tell about the sign of the age and the sign of your appearance. While Jesus tells of the Parable of the Fig Tree and the Parable of the 10 Virgins in between these parables Jesus also says there will be wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences. So is it right in the Christians mind when Jesus says earthquakes and wars that he is talking of parables? Anyone who studies Bible prophecy still needs to study that when Jesus is speaking of parables, allegories, symbollically and even the use of everyday literal language a Christian needs to determine in which Jesus is speaking in. Jesus isn't the Riddler on Batman. Please see how Disciples asked Jesus in the Bible why do you speak to "us" (plainly) and yet you speak to ("them") in (Parables?)

Jesus explains his reasons why he speaks to them plainly and why he speaks to them in parables. So when we study the Bible we need to ask for God's discernment to know the difference to see when Jesus is speaking a parable or when Jesus is speaking clear words as plain is the day.

But even in parable and plain words we should still always ask God in out heart what do all these things mean? God is the Spirit of truth. He will help us with these answers.

 

[turnorburn]

The roar of the flames and the piercing screams of the doomed and the damned seem to tear at your eardrums. Oh, for just a moment of silence! But it never comes.

You can't run away this time. Thoughts of law-abiding so-called Christians didn't tell you of this place. Additionally, your thoughts go to and fro from the time you were in a Bible-believing, preaching church. Thoughts you can so clearly remember. You remember the time when the preacher was talking to you about this hopeless place of darkness and pain. He talked about Jesus and His saving Blood.......

"He told me that I was a sinner! Now I accept Jesus as my Saviour. I accept what He did for me on the cross. Can't you hear me? I want to be saved! You know, born again! What the preacher said! Won't you listen? Can't you hear? Another scream escapes your burning lips.!"

For eternity you scream those words again and again, over and over, repeating these words, but alas, they go nowhere. Words, meaningless words that can't be heard by God Almighty, but by the doomed. I want to be born again! Can't you hear me! Why

Why can't they hear you, because your in that place prepared for the devil and his angels.. that place of everlasting fire..

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Don't listen to more of the devils lies, misery loves company guys and the devil wants all the company he can get..:yes

tob

 

[chessman]

You remember the time when the preacher was talking to you about this hopeless place of darkness and pain.

Luke 12:4 (ESV) “I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28

He talked about Jesus and His saving Blood.......

Romans 5:8 (ESV)
but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Romans 12:19 (ESV)
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense,
for the time when their foot shall slip;
for the day of their calamity is at hand,
and their doom comes swiftly.’ Deuteronomy 32:35 (ESV)
1 Corinthians 15:3 (ESV)
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

"He told me that I was a sinner! Now I accept Jesus as my Saviour.

Acts 4:12 (ESV)
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

I accept what He did for me on the cross.

that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures

What the preacher said! Won't you listen?

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

For eternity you scream those words again and again, over and over, repeating these words, but alas, they go nowhere.

Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28

I want to be born again!

1 Peter 1:23 (ESV)
since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Why can't they hear you, because your in that place prepared for the devil and his angels.. that place of everlasting fire..

Revelation 20:14 (ESV) This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 (ESV)
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Isaiah 9:18 (ESV)
For wickedness burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns
Isaiah 47:14 (ESV)
Behold, they are like stubble; the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before!

Don't listen to more of the devils lies,

Genesis 3:4 (ESV)
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
Revelation 11:5 (ESV)
And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.

the devil wants all the company he can get..

Revelation 20:7 (ESV)
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
People have been taught that Hell is a happy place for Satan.

tob

Turn or Burn:
Matt 3:12 (ESV) "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor ; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Burn (Greek)=Katakaio
Phonetic Spelling
kat-ak-ah'-ee-o
Definition: to burn up, consume by fire
Your very username means to CONSUME by FIRE, not to be eternally consciously tortured in fire.
Go check it out Kat:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/katakaio.html

 

[WordsintoHarmony]

I know this talk of Hell sounds confusing because Death is being looked at in 2 different ways. It would appear from these scriptures one would die and not know of anything. That is how it seems to be. So also it seems that we are born from a baby and we live to a certain age and then we die.

Lots of people say so when we die that’s it. But you say to them and after they die God judge’s people and they will go to an Eternal place for judgment. . These people say, NO they don’t because with my eyes I seen this baby was born. And with my eyes I saw him grow up and I saw him die. My eyes see that now he is in a casket. So don’t try to fool my eyes. I’ve seen what I’ve seen and you can’t tell me any different.

This is why Jesus tells us what happens after we die. Jesus does not share “What any man sees’ Jesus shares only what God Himself will see after we die. . When we think that a person dies and that is the end of the chapter that relies on your sight alone. It also relies on temporal thinking. Temporal thinking says that person is dead. And anyone who says God is going to judge them well I don’t believe them because God is invisible. And they say I won’t believe what this invisible God and bible says.

If you believe in the Second Death that a soul is thrown in the Fire and the Soul has died to be unconscious that is temporal thinking and using only scientific extrapolations or scientific observation and what your dictionary defines as Death.

But what our dictionary may define as death may not be the same as God speaks of the second death. The dictionary and The Bible may not always agree. God in His Judgments does not go by Scientific anything proof of. Scientifically if one was thrown in the fire they would die and become of unconsciousness. So then even we and the dictionary would call that death. But in Eternity the science in our world does not apply any longer. Please put the science thinking aside.

I have made to help understand a mathematical conversion to understand the eternity aspect. I call this ERBA. No you won’t find this acronym online. It is something I use to help explain how to compare Eternity to our Temporary state of living. ERBA stands for Eternal Ratio Belief Application. Here is how it works.

The word Eternity is placed as a denominator of a fraction. The numerator is any number at all less than eternity. For example numerator is 1 million and denominator is Eternity. 1 million represents 1 million years that represents our temporal age of history, while eternity the denominator represents all eternity after the second resurrection and the new Jerusalem. While 1 million is a portion of eternity 1 million can’t change Eternity or the denominator. The Denominator of eternity will never change. Because we must understand Eternity or forever is just what it means after all. You can’t add, subtract, multiply or divide to it. Not one of them would work. . Any such attempt doing so tries to change eternity into a number that has a beginning and an end. But in Eternity there is no end.

What does this mean? God is eternal. God has always been. He is and always will be. No Math can figure out why God has always existed and never had any beginning. When God says he is the first it only means he is before all things. But God was never born. He always existed. . Gods’ judgment on mankind is Eternal even as God lives forever. So ever lasting life when that begins will then never end. And eternal Hell also is eternal that never ends. Because eternity can’t’ be changed by any number or any human science approach to add or to lessen of it.

Eternity then is only that God is in control of all things and knows all things. This is where we need to have faith in God in doing so. We need to take God’s word and not make any attempt to change its meaning. Forever means forever. If one lives forever that will not change. The Bible speaks of Eternal fire. The Bible also says unquenchable. Why does the Bible say unquenchable? We have never seen such a fire that could even with water or ice to fight against all forces that this fire is not going out with anything. .

As hot as the sun is and even how big it is there’s still more possibility to try to put out the hot gas of the Sun than it is possible to try to put out the flames in Hell. The flames in Hell are greater than the Sun itself. . The sun will die out in millions or billions of years in its death but in Hell the Fire is unquenchable. And why would God leave a fire going if some say these souls are unconscious? Surly it would not make any sense God would leave the fire burning eternally knowing they have no state of consciousness. But God is a God of reason. The reason why the Bible keeps telling us Eternal fire is because Hell is a state that never ends. In scientific thinking that person should die like they do on Earth and have no conscious. But Science now in God’s judgment does not apply that way any longer. Rather now God has preserved all souls for judgment. Daniel 12 verse 2.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So some souls will be saved for everlasting Life and others for everlasting contempt. One will be with God forever and the other will be in Eternal Hell fire that will never go out. That fire is unquenchable. .

How does Death work in this stage? Death works not of science. But it works in Gods’ way of Eternity. So the second Death is not a scientific death. It is a spiritual Death or of the Soul in which is of torment, suffering and burning yet being conscious. How do we know this to be true?

Revelation 14 verse 11. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

See it says the same and of its torment. They will not rest day or night. So if they don’t rest day or night means they are conscious of knowing this Hell suffering and torment. Having no rest day or night means 24 hours around the clock suffering with no end to it. That is why Eternity must be weighed in these factors. Temporal science says they are dead and they are not conscious. But God’s eternal thinking says God is able to keep this soul of knowing this punishment. Then now in Matthew chapter 22 verse 13 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

See this is evidence one is yelling from their teeth as of screaming as of torment. It’s not showing us that the person has become unconscious. Next is Mark 9 verses 43- 44. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Lots of people think this is an Earth worm. Well it is possible it could be a real worm inside that person that never dies. But also I consider the soul that shakes and squiggles in suffering. Like a worm they will never die. So the second death is not the same as the first one. First there is one Birth that is physical. Then there is a second birth spiritual. 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 16-17.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

They have become born again spirit for eternity. There is also a physical death. Then there is a spiritual death as like the spiritual birth the soul knows forever. As in the spiritual death the soul knows of its suffering. The fire will not be lit by fuel as in science. It will be lit by Gods’ omnipotent all powerful way of keeping it lit. . God will keep a person burning in his Eternal power that they are dead they are destroyed and yet their soul still feels this destruction for everlasting punishment. It is like an atom bomb exploding which its explosion will have no end. . The words destroy and death is used because that soul will not have the capability to heal or to restore itself to being complete. The soul by fire is constantly ripping apart at every seam. The fire will never let the soul be alive again. It will be destroyed forever not able to heal but it will still feel the punishment of this.

In science this can’t be possible. To God this is all possible. In science flesh can’t be converted into a Spirit to live forever. But with God that is also possible. God can change flesh into spirit that lives forever because in eternity Science nor our dictionaries has anything to say. Every knee will bow and every Scientist, mathematician, and word definer of the dictionary also will bow and praise God for God knows all things.

 

[turnorburn]

Knowing What Grieves God

God made hell for the devil not for man it breaks His heart knowing that some men would rather go to that place than have a personal relationship with Him. He sent his only begotten Son to rescue us Jesus suffered in ways you and i can't imagine all so we wouldn't have to go there. Its our rebellion that stops us its the pride of life that prevents us from humbling ourselves in His presence..

The Bible tells us in Jeremiah 29:11 “for I know the thoughts that I think toward you
says the Lord Yahweh, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected
end”; God also told Jeremiah “before I formed you in the belly, I knew you, and
before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet
to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5).

In III John 2 the Bible says “beloved I wish above all
things that you may prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers”. It
grieves God when people don’t walk by faith (Hebrews 11:6) “but without faith it is
impossible to please Him, for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that
He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him”. The Bible tells us to “walk by faith
and not by sight”.

It grieves God when people don’t believe and trust Him. Malachi 3:
13-14 says “your words have been stout (arrogant) against Me says the Lord
Yahweh, yet you say, what have we spoken so much against You. You have said, it
is vain to serve God and what profit is it that we have kept His ordinance, and that we
have walked mournfully before the Lord of host”.

Jesus says “I only speak what I have heard My Father speak” and Jesus told us that
the Holy Spirit would not speak of Himself, but what He hears from Jesus, yet people
don’t think any thing about what they speak. That grieves God because our words
have power.

Proverbs 18:21 says “death and life are in the power of the tongue,
and they that love shall eat the fruit thereof”. James said “he that wavers is like a
wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he
shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways”
(James 1:6b-8).

Jesus said “that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall
give account thereof in the day of judgment”. For by your words you shall be
justified, and by your words you shall be condemned” (Matthew 12:36-37).

God ordained us to walk in good works (Ephesians 2:10) and God predestinated for
us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29). Paul wrote in Ephesians
4:11-15 “He (Jesus) gave some apostles, some prophets, and some evangelist, and
some pastors and teachers. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the
ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Till we all some in the unity of the
faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of
the stature of the fullness of Christ.

That we thereafter be no more children, tossed
to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and
cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. But speaking the truth in
love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ”. Psalms 82:
6-8 says it like this “I have said, you are gods, and all of you are children of the Most
High. But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, o god, judge
the earth, for you shall inherit all nations”. It grieves God when His children are
defeated (Psalms 35:27) says “let them shout for joy, and be glad that favor my
righteous cause, yea, let them say continually. Let the Lord Yahweh be magnified,
which has pleasure in the prosperity of His servant”.

God gave Adam dominion (Genesis 1:26-28); Adam grieved God when he disobeyed
His command and obeyed the devil and fell into the trap of the devil (Genesis 3).
God did not leave man there, He sent Jesus to redeem us (II Corinthians 5:17-21).
Jesus defeated the devil, then said “all power is given to Me in heaven and in earth.
Go you, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father
and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things
whatsoever I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of
the age” (Matthew 28:18-20).

http://www.thy-way.org/Bibles_Studies/Knowing_What_Grieves_God.html

tob