Bible Study Help me understand Mat. 15:22 / 15:28 better ?

[SpagLard]

Matthew 15:22 / 15:28

“And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.”
“But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.”
“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
“Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.”
“But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.”
“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”
“Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

-Does the Lord God here make a clear distinction between "the house of Israel" and all gentiles/pagans/dogs ?
Why does he do so ? I mean,...a moment later
a pagan (dog) woman can persuade Jesus by merely mentioning that metaphorically speaking
"the dogs spiritually eat the morsels that fall off the table of the chosen people" ?
-Jesus refuses to heal a CHILD , simply because it is a Canaanite child and not one of the House of Israel ?
-Jesus is then persuaded by the mother of a Canaanite dog's argument,
and subsequently changes his position and heals the child ?

It seems very contradictory to me, ..
Jesus says he is only sent to the House of Israel,
then he notices a pagan has Faith
and all of a sudden it does not matter that she is not of the house of Israel ?

someone help me make sense of this please ! ?

 

[reba]

To me the message of change is clear.. Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ph8th]

This is going to get me in trouble. The prophecy spoken by Daniel of all the 7s. Pointed to Jesus's baptism to His death and 7 year ministry to the jews. It was not their time (gentile) He told said same thing when Andrew brought the Greeks to Him in the temple. It was not till the end of the prophesied 7 year ministry to the Jews was over the ministry was directed to the gentiles. The end of the seven years was marked by the stoning of Steven. here comes the storm

peter

 

[SpagLard]

This is going to get me in trouble. The prophecy spoken by Daniel of all the 7s. Pointed to Jesus's baptism to His death and 7 year ministry to the jews. It was not their time (gentile) He told said same thing when Andrew brought the Greeks to Him in the temple. It was not till the end of the prophesied 7 year ministry to the Jews was over the ministry was directed to the gentiles. The end of the seven years was marked by the stoning of Steven. here comes the storm

Dear Sir,
if it is correct what you say, and the end of the seven year reign was marked by the stoning of Steven,..
then it would seem highly unlikely to me that that happened at the exact same time Jesus spoke to this woman.

He does not answer , and refuses to drive the demon out of the Canaanite child.

It was not their time (gentile)

And yet , one Faith-demonstrating argument later...

Mat. 15:27 /28
“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”
“Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

it was their time ?

 

[Ph8th]

I knew better than to enter into this thread. Jesus had been dead 3.5 years when Steven was stoned His ministry to the Jews continued until Steven was stoned ....... not sure if you remember but there was a dude name Saul there holding some coats watching. He had a life changing experience a short while later and Jesus gave Him a commission for the rest of His life. It was to take the Gospel ie Good news of Jesus to the gentiles....... not to say jews could not be grafted in.

Your question was about why Jesus handled it as He did
Their time had not come
peter

 

[SpagLard]

Your question was about why Jesus handled it as He did
Their time had not come

I'm not talking about Jesus's Ministry to the gentiles,
I'm wondering what the point was of Jesus denying the Canaanite woman's request to heal her demonic child.

she pleaded and worshipped Jesus, but he was silent.

You say their time had not come, but that makes very little sense.

Mat. 15:27 /28
“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”

That was all the Canaanite woman said, so i'm wondering how to explain the Change her one sentence made.
because then:

“Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

My question is , what does it signify ? why does Jesus heal the child because of it ?
Her pleas and her worship didn't work, but somehow demonstrating faith through a metaphor worked magic.
i'd love to hear people's take on this.

 

[Ph8th]

ok

 

[turnorburn]

I'm not talking about Jesus's Ministry to the gentiles,
I'm wondering what the point was of Jesus denying the Canaanite woman's request to heal her demonic child.

she pleaded and worshipped Jesus, but he was silent.

You say their time had not come, but that makes very little sense.

Mat. 15:27 /28
“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”

That was all the Canaanite woman said, so i'm wondering how to explain the Change her one sentence made.
because then:

“Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

My question is , what does it signify ? why does Jesus heal the child because of it ?
Her pleas and her worship didn't work, but somehow demonstrating faith through a metaphor worked magic.
i'd love to hear people's take on this.

Have you asked Jesus about this?

 

[SpagLard]

Have you asked Jesus about this?

Yes i have,
but i like to compare how i interpret the Word, to the interpretations of others..
that is why i ask.
is that not what we are here for , to learn from oneanother ?

 

[turnorburn]

Looks like that's a judgment call, have you considered what happens to a person once a demon is cast out?

 

[Brother Mike]

I'm not talking about Jesus's Ministry to the gentiles,
I'm wondering what the point was of Jesus denying the Canaanite woman's request to heal her demonic child.

she pleaded and worshipped Jesus, but he was silent.

You say their time had not come, but that makes very little sense.

Mat. 15:27 /28
“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”

That was all the Canaanite woman said, so i'm wondering how to explain the Change her one sentence made.
because then:

“Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

My question is , what does it signify ? why does Jesus heal the child because of it ?
Her pleas and her worship didn't work, but somehow demonstrating faith through a metaphor worked magic.
i'd love to hear people's take on this.

Why would Jesus deny that women?

I am assuming you might not follow this. I could be wrong.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; .................they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mar 16:17-18 KJV)

To understand things the scripture being alive, there needs to be a foundation and revelation of other things. If we believe in something that is not true and take it as fact. (God knows the end from the Beginning of every man. God lives outside of time and saw you grow up, and saw the choices you made) OR (God by His divine will caused you to do all you did) Then that could effect understanding of something else. These are just examples, they don't apply here.

You got some of it right, Jesus used a Metaphor for a good reason.
It was not Jesus healing the Child that made the Child well. What did He say? What did He say at other times?
You got the womens faith part right, but you stopped at that.

Being called to do other things.

Be blessed.

 

[JohnDB]

What the woman was claiming was that the whole world existed to serve a role in preserving Israel...for there to be a nation from which the Messiah would come.

As such she was claiming to be a servant of Israel and that Jesus was the Messiah.
The reality was that socially she was of a class thought higher than the Jews.

 

[ezra]

she was willing to take the crumbs she humbled her self

 

[Sinthesis]

QUOTE="SpagLard, post: 1144096, member: 2844"]Matthew 15:22 / 15:28

“And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.”
“But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.”
“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
“Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.”
“But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.”
“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”
“Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

-Does the Lord God here make a clear distinction between "the house of Israel" and all gentiles/pagans/dogs ?
Why does he do so ? I mean,...a moment later
a pagan (dog) woman can persuade Jesus by merely mentioning that metaphorically speaking
"the dogs spiritually eat the morsels that fall off the table of the chosen people" ?

Israel was separated out from the Gentiles to protect Gentiles from the curses Israel would suffer for rejecting Jesus. Looking down on Gentiles as dogs would have been a cultural vanity of the time accepted by the disciples and Canaanite women. Jesus acknowledged the separation, though I don't believe He valued either side differently. Jesus feeds the woman the metaphoric language, which she then continues in order to demonstrate her faith in Him regardless the social convention.​

-Jesus refuses to heal a CHILD , simply because it is a Canaanite child and not one of the House of Israel ?

He tests the mother's faith and then heals the daughter despite social convention as an example to the disciples and us.​

-Jesus is then persuaded by the mother of a Canaanite dog's argument,
and subsequently changes his position and heals the child ?

Jesus gives her an opportunity and then rewards her expression of humble faith and love.​

It seems very contradictory to me, ..
Jesus says he is only sent to the House of Israel,
then he notices a pagan has Faith
and all of a sudden it does not matter that she is not of the house of Israel ?

At the personal level it never really mattered if one was of Israel. Think about that other Canaanite woman Rehab, whose physical descendant would be Jesus himself. Yet at the cultural level it was important so that the consequence of the rejection of Jesus' doctrine would first be limited to Israel, that it might be observed by the remaining Gentile world as an example.​

someone help me make sense of this please ! ?[/QUOTE

 

[SpagLard]

Sinthesis Thank you kindly for writing out your thoughtful response !

 

[eddif]

it was their time ?

A thinking poster.
It was just about time.
Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Prophecy of the coming Messiah came about long before Jesus was born. In the same way the Gentiles (who were not accepted) were about to change from outside to grafted in.

This interaction with the lady is showing the coming Gentile inclusion. You are setting it up well with your question. Hidden hints / shadows usually precede the reality events. Paul left the stubborn Jews at the end of Acts. Paul said the Gentiles would listen, and in the fullness of time they did.

Eternity preceded time. Time is very brief. Eternity will follow time. Jesus was slain from the foundation of the earth, and although hints (hidden shadows) were in place revelation was progressive in a natural sense.
So
When the Jewish branch is broken off (the In-grafting would take place). Jesus came as a man. He seems to get some things similar to our ways. (He was way more spiritual, but we are empowered). Jesus said who touched me (when the woman with the issue of blood touched his garment) he had his senses trained, just like we can.

I have gone far enough without a response.

eddif

 

[jocor]

Matthew 15:22 / 15:28

“And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.”
“But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.”
“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
“Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.”
“But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.”
“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”
“Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

-Does the Lord God here make a clear distinction between "the house of Israel" and all gentiles/pagans/dogs ?
Why does he do so ? I mean,...a moment later
a pagan (dog) woman can persuade Jesus by merely mentioning that metaphorically speaking
"the dogs spiritually eat the morsels that fall off the table of the chosen people" ?
-Jesus refuses to heal a CHILD , simply because it is a Canaanite child and not one of the House of Israel ?
-Jesus is then persuaded by the mother of a Canaanite dog's argument,
and subsequently changes his position and heals the child ?

It seems very contradictory to me, ..
Jesus says he is only sent to the House of Israel,
then he notices a pagan has Faith
and all of a sudden it does not matter that she is not of the house of Israel ?

someone help me make sense of this please ! ?

Yeshua fully intended to heal the woman's child all along. He knew, IMHO, even before she spoke that she had faith. He was merely trying to draw that faith out of her and make it manifest.

Yeshua did not answer her at first to cause her to become more persistent. The disciple wanted her gone, but Yeshua was trying to teach them a lesson as well, that is, to not give up on people even though they annoy us and vex us.

I agree with Synthesis concerning the culture and social conventions. Yeshua's replies accomplished what he intended. The woman would not give up on seeking a healing for her child because she knew Yeshua had the power to heal. She continued to press him until her faith was revealed through her words.

The disciples were probably kicking themselves for wanting her sent away and for not seeing the woman as Yeshua saw her, a lost sheep in need. Although she was not of the House of Israel, she was still a lost sheep from another flock.

 

[JohnDB]

But Jesus wasn't sent TO the whole world... Only TO the Jews. "...and his own received him not"

He came FOR everyone... But only to the Jews. The woman only got her miracle because of her servant claim.

As Jesus was taking the role of a schmeekah rabbi he couldn't associate with the Gentiles because it would make him ceremonially unclean to do so. IOW he couldn't go to the Temple.

 

[Brother Mike]

He tests the mother's faith and then heals the daughter despite social convention as an example to the disciples and us.-Jesus is then persuaded by the mother of a Canaanite dog's argument,
and subsequently changes his position and heals the child ?
Jesus gives her an opportunity and then rewards her expression of humble faith and love.

This is pretty much it. I would stray away from looking at cultures though in scripture, it can cause you to look at things that are not there, and take your focus off what the Word actually says. We compare scriptures as to why Jesus might have answered her the way He did, and the way He answered normally would have offended someone.

She came crying and following them saying Lord, Son of David about her daughter. Sounds good, but does she really believe Jesus is Lord?

She finally goes up to him and says Lord help me.

Just because someone ask for help, is no indication they respect the Word enough to follow what you tell them, and/or believe the Lord really wants to help them. This scripture has saved me wasting a tremendous amount of time, energy and effort helping someone that won't do what you ask them to do, or laying hands on someone that really does not believe the Lord wants them healed.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
(Mat 15:26 KJV)

This is the point the women could have walked away saying. "Call me a dog? I come all this way, follow after you because my daughter needs healed and you call me a dog? (Seriously???) I don't have to put up with being called a dog. Do I sound like a dog? No, I called you Lord, and you insult me by calling me a dog. I don't need to take this, I am having a bad enough day the way it is. I am outta here"

Same deal with the rich young ruler:
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
(Mar 10:17 KJV)

And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
(Mar 10:20-21 KJV)

The rich young ruler comes to Jesus calling him good, calling him Master. Jesus is about to find out how true and sincere his statements are. Jesus picks the one thing the man values most, His possessions. If the rich young ruler really believes Jesus is Master and Jesus is good, then He would have went and sold everything, knowing Jesus was not trying to make him broke, or set him back. If Jesus is really good and Master, then selling all your things work out better for you and you believe him.

Jesus said you shall have treasure in Heaven.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
(Mat 6:20-21 KJV)

Jesus was not trying to make him broke, just the opposite, but wealth was the one thing this young ruler believed in above believing Jesus is really good and master. Had he not walked away, He would have heard.

But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
(Mar 10:30 KJV)

More lands, houses, more everything. He was not there to hear it though. He walked away offended.

Hometown:
But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
(Mar 6:4-5 KJV)
And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
(Mar 6:6 KJV)

The people in his hometown were offended at him. Jesus could not heal them or do much for them. He went there because he wanted to, but He could not. Unbelief does not connect to the power in Him. Nothing has changed, it's the same today.

Jesus healed the daughter? Not exactly what it says.
Religion has a way of robbing people of healing, and things God could do for them. Jesus is not on earth healing today, so some devil inspired people tell others that. Healing was just to get the church started they say. Destroying the faith of many. It was not Jesus who was responsible for the healing though.

I'll say it again. It was not Jesus who was responsible for the healing. He was the source of healing, and the healing came by believing in who He was.

Who He is has not changed one bit from back then, to today.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
(Mat 15:28 KJV)

The healing was according to what she wanted, not according to what He could do. We all receive far below what God can actually do, and need to come up in trust and faith.

Mat_9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

The women did not walk away though Jesus called her a dog. If Jesus is really Lord to her, then a Lord can say what they want and a person still stands by, believing their Lord. The young ruler walked away, the people in Jesus hometown were offended at him also.

It's not Jesus having power to heal, it is who you think He is that determines your healing. Is He still good and wants you healed today? Some say God does not heal everyone. If that is the case, then they don't think Jesus is still the good master, He changed in same way.

I have some good news, Jesus never has changed one bit, and the power of His name over any disease has never changed. As Peter said, Faith in His name has made this man whole............

Mike.

 

[SpagLard]

Thanks Mike, that was a very thought provoking and well considered answer to me.