Bible Study Here’s the most critical question for you

[Runner]

Regardless of how we interpret the quoted verses or believe they should apply in the context of our individual lives, all we can do is walk the Christian walk as prayerfully as we can in reliance on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I don't see how the most restrictive, literal reading of those verses quoted in the original post would affect my Christian walk in the slightest. (Do you still have both of your hands and both of your eyes, Senior? So do I.) All I can do is what I can do, prayerfully and in reliance on the Holy Spirit. I happen to be mildly in the OSAS camp, but shifting to the OSNAS camp would not cause me to alter my Christian walk in the slightest. I would not become more devout, more obedient, more mindful, or more anything else. So really, what's the point? I think all of us, OSAS and OSNAS alike and everyone in between, must walk the narrowest path of which we are able, with at least a bit of humbleness that we just might be wrong and just might not make the grade even if we think we are sincere paragons of Christian virtue. My formative Christian years were spent solidly in the OSAS camp, and I never heard anyone suggest it was a license to sin or that an un-Christian life from that point forward was irrelevant or utterly without consequences. So again I ask, what really is the point? Work out your salvation with fear and trembling - not mine.

 

[Senior]

So really, what's the point?

What's the point?
MOST believers in today's Western churches are in terrible shape spiritually!
If they do not repent of their habitually-sinning lifestyle, they are NOT going to heaven.
That's the point.

 

[Christ_empowered]

OK...

...there's a lot going on here. For one thing, with secularization plaguing much of the church, you're dealing with a situation in which many denominations and individual churches (I'm speaking as a Protestant here) aren't providing appropriate teaching, disciple-ing, etc. Plus, individuals are coming at this from a postmodern, worldly perspective that sees man more in therapeutic terms ("issues" to be "resolved" vs "sins" to be "forgiven," for instance) than (I would think...) any generation, ever before.

That's not even taking into account the way society as a whole has changed, community bonds have largely disintegrated, and the "family unit" isn't holding up under all the social (and economic) pressures.

I don't think its all doom and gloom, nor do I think its necessarily unprecedented. The NT speaks of the wheat and the tares, wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, false doctrine, etc. I do at times think The Great Falling Away may be approaching, especially when I see "mainline" Protestant denominations throwing Scripture out the window at the denominational level. But even there....well, look at PCUSA and the Episcopalians (US). They've --lost-- lots of members as they've turned their backs on God, while Pentecostals and non-denominational groups have gained.

I dunno. I do not think of OSAS as a "license to sin." I also do not think of the view I was taught, by Pentecostals, as necessarily being more true to Scripture. I think one can cherry pick and find extreme case studies on both sides, but that doesn't --prove-- much of anything.

I will say that some of the more popular OSAS ministers+teachers seem to make a handsome profit while stretching Scripture. That doesn't mean they don't facilitate The Lord's work in the lives of those who read their books and watch them on TV, etc. Charles Stanley, for instance, has never saved --anyone--; on a good day, he uses his platform to plant seeds into the lives of people.

 

[Runner]

What's the point?
MOST believers in today's Western churches are in terrible shape spiritually!
If they do not repent of their habitually-sinning lifestyle, they are NOT going to heaven.
That's the point.

OK, but most believers in all churches everywhere are in "terrible shape spiritually." As my wife (a lifelong resident of the USSR) points out, most Russian Orthodox of her acquaintance (and there have been thousands) know no more about the Bible than do most atheists, and the Russian Orthodox church seamlessly brought more than 1/3 of the formerly atheistic Communist regime into its administrative hierarchy without missing a beat. So don't be under any illusion that genuine spirituality magically begins the moment you leave the borders of Western Christianity.

Have you been deceived into believing in “once saved, always saved”,
and that your sins (past, present, and future) have all been forgiven?
(Also, have you been deceived into believing in a pre-tribulation rapture?)
Heads-up! The dozens of warnings in the NT are there for a purpose!

Statements like this led me to believe that you were not merely issuing a general reminder to all Christians to be more attentive to their Christian walk but had a much more specific doctrinal agenda - i.e., reopening the same old same old OSAS vs. OSNAS debate that has been beaten to death. Am I incorrect? When you state that Kidron that is "in Kindergarden Christianity slurping milk," this sounds to me like someone who is simply looking for a fight (and probably ought to be more concerned about the state of his own spirituality).

My point is that, regardless of whether one is OSAS, OSNAS or some variant, all one can do is prayerfully lead the best Christian life of which one is capable with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Bible-thumping harangues really serve no purpose. This being a place called Christian Forums, surely you didn't think that most participants here were completely ignorant of the verses you quoted? I and they are fully aware of them. We factor them into our Christian beliefs, whatever those may be. When all is said and done, all we do and all we can do is prayerfully lead the best Christian lives of which we are capable according to our understanding of the Bible and Jesus' message with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

What you are saying would make sense only if you thought that most Western believers were in terrible shape spiritually because they accepted the OSAS position. I don't have statistics, but I feel sure that the OSAS position is a minority one in Western Christianity. Moreover, as I have stated, I don't believe and have not seen any evidence to suggest that those who hold the OSAS position lead objectively different (i.e., less God-pleasing) lives than do those who hold the OSNAS position or some variant.

So again I ask, rhetorically, what's the point? Reminding all Christians of the verses you quoted is always worthwhile, but statements like "Have you been deceived into believing in 'once saved, always saved'?" seem to suggest that you are really speaking only to the OSAS community and are under the impression that those in this community lead vastly less God-pleasing lives than do those in the OSNAS community. Everything that I have observed suggests this is a false premise.

 

[Senior]

... most Western believers were in terrible shape spiritually because they accepted the OSAS position.

Okay, I guess you prefer to believe ...
American churches are filled with anti-OSAS believers who are involved with habitual unrepentant sin.
So, I guess they're suicidal.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

There's a dual dynamic in our sinful lives. One is knowing we aren't measuring up, and can be thankful that Jesus came to rescue us from our inability to be right. The second part though is to strive anyways. To do good. Live as rightousy as possible. To consider each failure as a grave sentence or a mark of death.

Too often in discussions I see one of the two elements focused on while the other is acknowledged but mostly ignored. And in real life, our actions show that we live surrounded by sin. To not become complacent about some of your own sins is a difficult thing to do.

Sex and drunks are so common that it's not noticed or critized when people go out with the intent to hook up with someone or know they will get drunk and probably do something stupid. Our anger is sometimes encouraged, and our protest with a lot voice or vandalized act has acceptance based on the group that thinks they were wronged anyways.

How can we look at the narrow way without fear? How can we ignore our inability to fully repent and God's salvation through Jesus? We are not saved by our own means, but we are still called to strive for righteousness and repent anyways. This is our task. Among several other tasks in life, to live righteously and be thankful and humble because of what God has already done for us.

 

[Senior]

but we are still called to strive for righteousness and repent anyways. This is our task.
Among several other tasks in life, to live righteously and be thankful and humble
because of what God has already done for us.

Yes, you've got the picture.
But IMO, most people in American churches today believe in OSAS.
They've been deceived by Satan through their churches.
E.G. "believe" in John 3:16, etc. actually means ...
"believe in, have faith in, trust in, obey (until death)".
But, there's no Greek word for all of that.

This is what the NT teaches!

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I don't know that OSAS IS in the wrong though.

Today is my day off from work, and also where I don't have to get up for church or anything else too early. In these kinds of days I really relax and spend time slowly going through the day without a hurry or a rush.

Yet today even before getting up out of bed I already sinned. Even though we are told to strive to follow God, the only hope is that God will keep us. Because we are already too broken to measure up.

If once saved always saved is not true then most of us are already lost, beyond being fixed.

Once when Jesus taught the difficulties of the rich entering heaven, someone asked "then what hope is there for anyone? Jesus replied that humanity speaking it is impossible, but for God all things are possible.

This should be our approach, because we are at God's mercy. Strive to follow God and know that if we ever succeed it's because God helped us, not because we did it in our own. The greater hope is that through striving and trying, God will see our love for Him and show us mercy even through our failures.

OSAS is my hope, the other outlook is my fear. After all if God is for us who can be against us? If He rejects us who can rescue us? Our fate rests entirely on God's mercy.

So what can you do? Try anyways, pray, love one another, apply Jesus's teachings, and if you can also apply the teachings from the old testimentcand the letters in the new testament.

Hope for God, for the Holy Spirit, and for our salvation, because we are broken on our own.

 

[Senior]

If once saved always saved is not true then most of us are already lost, beyond being fixed.

Your heart is in the right place.
You only need to be taught that ... CONFESSION and REPENTANCE will take care of your concern.
Repentance = sorrow over sin, confess the sin, change (stop doing it).
Please re-read the OP (Opening Post, Original Post).

 

[Senior]

Here are some additional comments on 6 of the NT passages in the OP …

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter
into life maimed rather than having two hands and go to hell” (Mark 9:43)
Does Jesus go overboard in trying to express the incredible seriousness of sin?

“You will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures
to the end (until his death) will be saved (eternally).” (Matthew 10:22)
There are about 15 NT verses which teach this spiritual Truth above.
And, enduring in the faith until death includes …
• Not falling away during the times of severe persecution of Christians
• Not submitting to the incredible pressure of taking the dreaded mark of the beast
Both of these severe TESTS will be coming upon professing Christians soon!
Re: taking the mark, be sure you read the eternal consequences in Rev.13-14.

“Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth (eternal) death.
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:15-16)
Sin brings forth eternal death upon believers also, unless it is repented of!

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
Repentance includes all of the following: the sorrow over committing the sin,
the confessing it to God, the asking forgiveness for it, the stopping of doing it.

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:10)
“He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)
Many believers have been deceived by the gospel of hyper-grace, the “Me gospel”.
They have been deceived into believing that they have been made
FOREVER righteous because of what Jesus did for them on the Cross.
They have NOT been made FOREVER anything by God’s free gift of grace.
They have NOT been made FOREVER justified, righteous, sanctified, saved, etc.
NO GUARANTEES is what the NT teaches! … because …
We see that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL – all throughout the whole Bible!
Warning: gifts can be taken back, seals can be broken, etc.
Because believers are required to do their part in their salvation.
They are required to co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit.
And the opposite of this is the most-deadly practicing of habitual (unrepentant) sin!

“And do NOT present your member as instruments of unrighteousness to sin,
but present yourselves to God … as instruments of righteousness to God.
… Do you not know that … you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness? … so now
present your bodies as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
… For the end of those things (past sins) is (eternal) death.
... For the wages of sin is (eternal) death,
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:13—23)
Paul is writing to born-again believers in Rome (who are strangers to him).
He warns them: sinning, being slaves of sin, being unrighteous – leads to eternal death!
Attention: believers just do NOT understand Paul’s method of writing to the churches.
It is all about being tactful, so he will be welcome to visit them (and teach them more).
Paul mixes his warnings in amongst his MANY edifications, exhortations, blessings, etc.
And he leaves it up to the precious Holy Spirit to reveal the deep meaning of Scripture.
Warning: deceived believers are mistakenly taught to focus on the last line above,
and they just do not realize that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL,
which is seen all throughout the whole entire Bible!

Believers are taught that passages such as the Romans 6 simply do NOT apply to them!
The churches do NOT want to get the troops upset …
because the troops come trooping in every Sunday with their tithes!
To be fair, some church leadership are not this way … they have just been
deceived by the greatest lair and deceiver in history, whose name is Satan!

 

[Senior]

Sin’s Power Is Broken – is the heading for Romans 6 (New Living Translation)
6 so that sin might lose its power in our lives
6 we are no longer slaves to sin
7 we were set free from the power of sin
10 he died once to break the power of sin
11 consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin
12 do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires
13 do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin (a la Mark 9:43)
14 sin is no longer your master
16 you can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or …
16 you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living
18 you are free from your slavery to sin
19 you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy
22 you are free from the power of sin
22 do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life
23 for the wages of sin is death
All of the above are direct quotes from the New Living Translation (NLT).
The time is running very short for you to REPENT and get with God’s will for your life!
Repenting of a sin (this what the Lord requires of you):
• have sorrow over doing it
• confess it before the Lord
• ask the Lord for forgiveness
• stop doing it

 

[Runner]

Okay, I guess you prefer to believe ...
American churches are filled with anti-OSAS believers who are involved with habitual unrepentant sin.
So, I guess they're suicidal.

You have taken a partial quote out of context to make it appear I said something I did not say. I believe that's a violation of the Terms of Service. What I actually said was, "What you are saying would make sense only if you thought that most Western believers were in terrible shape spiritually because they accepted the OSAS position." You omitted the words in blue.

You are the one railing against the OSAS position as though it were responsible for Western churches being in "terrible shape spiritually" (your phrase). I merely pointed out that OSAS is a minority position and thus cannot account for the state of churches in the West.

You then state that you "guess I prefer to believe" that "American churches are filled with anti-OSAS believers who are involved with habitual unrepentant sin." I'm not following your train of logic at all. Why would you "guess" I "prefer to believe" that? Does anyone believe that? Does it even make sense?

If someone thought American churches were filled with anti-OSAS believers, why would he further believe they were "filled with habitual unrepentant sin"? And why would you then "guess they're suicidal"?

 

[Senior]

Runner, please review our conversation and try to understand the logic.