Here's How the New Christian Left Is Twisting the Gospel

[ezra]

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

I have never heard it called "relationship witnessing". You have explained it in a way that many may disagree with. I was raised with "close your eyes and raise your hand" type of evangelism. I didn't like it then and I still don't. In the 60's and 70's it was about the "number" of professions each Sunday, get'um saved and then they are on their own. If we treated our infants like that, get'um birthed and then they are own their own, the survival rate would be very low.

I have ranted enough.
dirtfarmer

good point i always shutter at repeat this prayer after me especially in mass altar calls john Hagee doe this a lot

 

[Jim Parker]

Not according to Jesus. I should know; I gave an entire presentation on the historical Jesus back in January.

I was responding to your statement; "If you really want to be counter-cultural, just start teaching that the Earth and universe are roughly 6,000 years old according to the Bible."
The topic, "The Historical Jesus" is entirely different from "the universe is roughly 6000 years old."
And what YOU do and say is not "according to Jesus." It's according to you.

iakov the fool

 

[ezra]

no body knows the age of the earth and it is even more silly to even think one does

 

[Papa Zoom]

Well, let me help you find the evidence. In my video debunking a William Lane Craig video, I showed where the 6,000 number comes from, and I debunked William Lane Craig's arguments against YEC that he made in a particular video.

Just because someone responds to arguments doesn't give them the currency to claim a debunking. No offense, but when someone claims their own victory and toots his own horn, call me crazy but my skeptic hat goes into overdrive.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I was responding to your statement; "If you really want to be counter-cultural, just start teaching that the Earth and universe are roughly 6,000 years old according to the Bible."
The topic, "The Historical Jesus" is entirely different from "the universe is roughly 6000 years old."
And what YOU do and say is not "according to Jesus." It's according to you.

iakov the fool

Exactly. I can read the words of Jesus myself. When someone tells me what He meant I'm generally thinking, "You mean what YOU think He meant." Such claims are intellectual red flags.

 

[Justin_TTOR]

I was responding to your statement; "If you really want to be counter-cultural, just start teaching that the Earth and universe are roughly 6,000 years old according to the Bible."
The topic, "The Historical Jesus" is entirely different from "the universe is roughly 6000 years old."
And what YOU do and say is not "according to Jesus." It's according to you.

iakov the fool

you said that it would hurt the gospel message of salvation, and in the presentation I shared the link of, I explain why it doesn't in the second half of the presentation where I talk about the inconvenient teachings of Jesus, which includes what we were discussing in the other thread.

Edited for personally attacking another member.

 

[Justin_TTOR]

Just because someone responds to arguments doesn't give them the currency to claim a debunking. No offense, but when someone claims their own victory and toots his own horn, call me crazy but my skeptic hat goes into overdrive.

The approach I take in my videos by and large is the same approach that David Wood of Acts17Apologetics takes in his videos. His approach is aggressive in nature, and his ministry has been very successful in terms of deconverting people from Islam and atheism. A lot of them have become Christians too

Is David Wood in the wrong for using that approach?

 

[OzSpen]

Oz

I don't think the Bible teaches either. I used to believe the Henry Morris young earth view. That's what we studied in college and what I learned as a child. But there's a lot of questions I have about dinosaurs, fossil fuels, early man (like Neanderthals) and then there's the background radiation, big bang, lots to consider. What I believe is complicated to explain because I don't have a solid handle on all of it. I am comfortable with an old earth and lean that way (Hugh Ross impresses me). I haven't completely ruled out young earth because anything is possible with God. Ultimately, I don't give it much thought and I certainly don't consider it a hill to die on. When pressed, I fall on the old earth side of the equation. I think interpretations in the Bible are open to both views. :nod[/QUOTE]

Papa,

The problem I run into Down Under is that the only dating I hear in churches is young earth creationism, thanks to the extensive ministries in churches & elsewhere by Creation Ministries International which promotes YEC. Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis used to work with them but there was some 'conflict'.

It is YEC as a one-way street in churches here. I was at one of their presentations & at Q&A time I quoted from Augustine's, City of God, and his belief in an old earth. The presenter didn't like the challenge when I also quoted Norman Geisler. He got a bit heated in his responses to me and I was rather direct myself.

Hugh Ross also has been a great help in my understanding, plus a string of evangelical Bible teachers and apologists who don't accept a young earth and give their reasons.

However, I don't consider it is enough to break Christian fellowship over. In fact, I rarely talk with Christians about it. However, in my writing a religious instruction (RI) curriculum for high school grades 7 & 8, I have to spend 1 lesson on addressing the evolutionary issue as evolution is the only position taught in secular high schools. I will do that after I've spent a couple lessons on Christianity's view of creation.

We still are able to teach RI in state schools and I hope to be doing that in 2018, when I complete another 17 lessons. I've written 23 lessons.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Maybe my math is messed up but 7th century BC to today.....isn't that 2700 years?....not 9000?

You are dead right. I apologise for my miscalculation. A century is 100 years and not 1,000 years. Thanks for bringing me to my senses.

 

[chessman]

Could 6,000 years old be regarded as ancient?

I suppose it depends on who's doing the regarding. The older I get, then shorter one year seems to me. I bet to God, 1,000 years seems like just a few hours. But my point was that both books (Job and Psalms) specifically call the Earth "old/ancient", not young. And they were written at least 27 centuries ago. Makes you wonder who's taking the Bible literal and who's not.

Genesis doesn't say when (in years) God created the Earth. I find it odd that people claim to know the literal date of the Earth's creation but then don't really know. They say "about 6,000 years ago". Well, what is it then??? You either know it because the Bible says it or you don't. The fact is, YEC doesn't know the 'literal' date.

Literally according to the Bible, the Earth id old/ancient (see Job 20, Psalm 24, Prov 8, etc.)

If 7th century BC, that would make it ca. 9,000 years old in 2017

Actually only 27 centuries old. A mere twinkling of an eye as compared to the age of the Earth's beginning:

“Yahweh possessed me [Wisdom], the first of his ways, before his acts of old. From eternity, I was set up from the first, from the beginning of the earth.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 8:22-23&version=LEB​

For goodness sake, "the beginning of the Earth" was an old (and wise) act of God, per the Bible.

I think Job (at least in verbal tradition) pre-dates Moses.

I think birds, fish, insects and plants pre-date Adam by many, many, millions of years (which are just a day or two or three to God).

 

[OzSpen]

I suppose it depends on who's doing the regarding. The older I get, then shorter one year seems to me. I bet to God, 1,000 years seems like just a few hours. But my point was that both books (Job and Psalms) specifically call the Earth "old/ancient", not young. And they were written at least 27 centuries ago. Makes you wonder who's taking the Bible literal and who's not.

Genesis doesn't say when (in years) God created the Earth. I find it odd that people claim to know the literal date of the Earth's creation but then don't really know. They say "about 6,000 years ago". Well, what is it then??? You either know it because the Bible says it or you don't. The fact is, YEC doesn't know the 'literal' date.

Literally according to the Bible, the Earth id old/ancient (see Job 20, Psalm 24, Prov 8, etc.)

Actually only 27 centuries old. A mere twinkling of an eye as compared to the age of the Earth's beginning:

“Yahweh possessed me [Wisdom], the first of his ways, before his acts of old. From eternity, I was set up from the first, from the beginning of the earth.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 8:22-23&version=LEB​

For goodness sake, "the beginning of the Earth" was an old (and wise) act of God, per the Bible.

I think Job (at least in verbal tradition) pre-dates Moses.

I think birds, fish, insects and plants pre-date Adam by many, many, millions of years (which are just a day or two or three to God).

chessman,

This idea of the world being young is not a new idea. Bishop Ussher lived most of his live in the 17th century and he developed the thesis that the world was created in 4004 BC, thus making the world ca. 6,000 years old to last century.

You stated it well that both Job and the Psalms claim that the earth is old and ancient.


Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. These two passages are referring to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, but also have a dual reference to the spiritual power behind them, known as Satan.

The angels were created before the earth, Job 38:4-7, and Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve, Genesis 3:1-14. Scripture does not say when Satan fell, but we see that it was before tempting Adam and Eve as per Ezekiel 28:12-18. Satan was the guardian set over the garden of Eden before the creation of man. According to Job 1:6, 7 Satan still had access to heaven and the throne of God as he was roaming through the earth moving freely between the two and giving account to God as he spoke to Him. Scripture is silent as giving an exact time when God cast Satan out of the Throne Room of heaven and having access to the throne of God, but it was before that of the Assyrian mentioned in Ezekiel 31 that were Pre-Adamic human beings living in or near the garden of God which is/was somewhere close to Lebanon as the river Hiddekel flowed into it.

Genesis 1:28 God told Adam and Eve to replenish the earth, Genesis 9:1 God told Noah to replenish the earth after the flood. By these passages from the Bible we can see that this world is much older than 6000 years and was inhabited by man way before the creation of Adam and Eve as the key word here is replenish. Why would God tell them to replenish the earth if there were not others here before Adam and Eve.

From the time God created the heavens and the earth until that of creating Adam and Eve could have spanned more than 6000 years as we do see Dinosaurs and dragons mention throughout scripture, Job 30: 29; Job 40:15-18, 23; Job 41; Isaiah 27:1; Isaiah 34:13; Isaiah 35:7; Isaiah 51:9; Deu 32:33; Psalms 44:19; Psalms 74:13; Isaiah 43:20; Jer 9:11; Jer 10:22; Jer 49:33; Micah 1:8; Mal 1:3.

When God cast out Cain in Genesis Chapter four Cain made the statement that everyone that finds him will slay him and Cain went to dwell in the land of Nod. We only hear at this time in Genesis chapter four that there were only Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel as they were their first two children. When Cain was cast out scripture says he went to Nod,knew his wife and conceived a son, so where did she come from if there were not others created before Adam.

My question is who decided man has only been here for 6000 years?

 

[OzSpen]

My question is who decided man has only been here for 6000 years?

Bishop James Ussher, who lived 1581 to 1656, claimed the earth was created around 6 pm on 22 October 4004 BC.

 

[for_his_glory]

Bishop James Ussher, who lived 1581 to 1656, claimed the earth was created around 6 pm on 22 October 4004 BC.

I guess with that question I would get many that would make claim.

 

[Free]

Not according to Jesus. I should know; I gave an entire presentation on the historical Jesus back in January.

It is well established that presenting the Bible as being against science, or at least making so much noise about such an idea, not only keeps people away, it causes many Christian youth to abandon Christianity.

 

[Free]

Well, let me help you find the evidence. In my video debunking a William Lane Craig video, I showed where the 6,000 number comes from, and I debunked William Lane Craig's arguments against YEC that he made in a particular video.

Having listened to just the first two or three "debunkings" of Dr. Craig, you haven't debunked him at all. As to the age of the earth, you beg the question and make numerous assumptions. There is a known "issue" with the genealogies, namely, that they skip people, even generations. They were never meant to be use to determine the age of the earth; they were written for quite different purposes. They simply are unreliable for determining the age of the earth.

As to people only believing YEC because that is what they were taught, that was a general statement about what does happen, not an argument about what is always the case. Dr. Craig knows full well that people change beliefs all the time, but generally speaking, the majority and likely vast majority of people that believe in YEC, do so because that is what they have been taught from the pulpit or in Sunday school. I used to be a YEC for that reason but now am OEC after having studied the issue. Your argument to the 18 year-old has no bearing on the issue at all as you don't mention whether or not she became a YEC, or if she has always been a YEC. And you mentioned Ken Ham--that's an automatic disqualifier.

There are other issues with your arguments as well but I just don't have the time to get into it right now.

 

[Free]

The approach I take in my videos by and large is the same approach that David Wood of Acts17Apologetics takes in his videos. His approach is aggressive in nature, and his ministry has been very successful in terms of deconverting people from Islam and atheism. A lot of them have become Christians too

Is David Wood in the wrong for using that approach?

David Wood is reaching a certain audience for which his tactics work. He is not using this approach to disagree with other Christians, particularly Christians that are well respected in their fields.

 

[Jim Parker]

If you really want to be counter-cultural, just start teaching that the Earth and universe are roughly 6,000 years old according to the Bible. Then you'll see where people's loyalties are and what their relationship to God is really like.

To really be counter-cultural be: humble, liberal (in giving, not in politics), chaste, mild, temperate, happy and diligent. Also; love God; love the believers,; love your neighbors; love your enemies; bless those who curse you; do good to those who hate you; and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you; Give to him who asks you and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. Do not to resist an evil person. but, whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. Also; forgive those who sin against you and don't judge people. Do not participate in adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like.
etc.

 

[OzSpen]

I guess with that question I would get many that would make claim.

FHG,

My point was that Young Earth Creationists are not making a new claim. Since Ussher's time in the 17th century, many more biblical and scientific studies have been done on Genesis and the age of the earth/universe.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Oz,
Yes, I agree with your point, but I was only referring to the question I asked "My question is who decided man has only been here for 6000 years?" Then I said "I guess with that question I would get many that would make claim." I was only referring to how many do make a claim it is only 6000 years old. I doubt anyone could ever prove how old the earth is, but only speculate.