Heresy of the Judaizers

[brakelite2]

Brakelite2,

Keeping the 10 commandments do not justify anyone to enter the kingdom of God. The 10 commandments are the schoolmaster to teach us that we are incapable of keeping God's righteousness; and that another would have to assuage the penalty of sin for us. The 10 commandments show us the way to our Savior Jesus Christ for He is the fulfillment of the righteous law of God. Our keeping the law is impossible in the flesh.

Impossible in the flesh, absolutely. But do you not believe that by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit in your life, you can keep the Ten Commandments? So long as we remain abiding in Him, with the flesh crucified daily and ourselves surrendered fully, can not God accomplish in us what we in our own strength cannot?

Therefore, God's law is written on the fleshly hearts of those who are born again, and we are to operate within the law of God. Paul speaks of the inner man delighting in the law of God while the flesh is sold under sin. We are exhorted to walk in the Spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, and not conformed to this world, for those who love the world are at enmity with God Almighty.

Precisely.

Believers are to walk in the righteous law of God, not for justification but to walk in the Spirit fulfilling the law through Christ Jesus. Does that mean that we should keep the Sabbath day holy? Yes, and not just the Sabbath day, but every single day of the week. Should we rest from our work on the Sabbath day?

I'll stop you right there if I may. Who told you to change the law of God from one specific day to any day? God says the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. The day is specific. It is not the rest that is sanctified and blessed and made holy, if it were, then I could agree with you that you could take that rest anywhere you like. But no. It is the day that is made holy. A specific single day of the week, and we are asked to honor God by remembering that specific day.

Yes, and we should rest from our work every day of the week, and instead be about the work of our Father in heaven.

Our 'work' in this context is quite different from the secular labour that God intended that we rest from on the Sabbath. Spiritualizing the work does not remove the implications of the commandment.

Should we not commit adultery? Yes we should not commit adultery, in fact, we should not even look at a woman with lust in our hearts for her. Should we not commit murder? Yes we should not commit murder, in fact we should not even be angry with our brother without cause for it is the same as murder. If we walk according to these principles, will we be justified and born again? NO. We are only justified by the work of Jesus Christ and by the faith of Jesus Christ through our belief in Him.

You keep reminding me that we cannot be justified by obeying the law. Where have I suggested otherwise? That is not the issue. Otherwise what you say is absolutely correct. We must live our lives in conformity with the law. But how? By our own strength? No, but just as you say, by the grace of God and His power in a changed life. We are born again, filled with His Spirit, and renewed in our hearts and minds. Righteousness is not only imputed to us by the death and resurrection of Jesus but imparted to us as well. Praise God!

If we are not saved because we keep the commandments, then how are we saved? We are saved because the Spirit of God births us into the kingdom of God through believing in the faith of Jesus Christ. Nothing on this earth, above this earth, or under this earth can remove us from being the born again children of God Almighty, and we are secure in this salvation which He seals us by Himself as He dwells within us.

Actually, the scriptures say that it is God's love that we cannot be separated from, not our salvation. But that is another discussion. ;)

 

[Solo]

Brakelite2,

Keeping the 10 commandments do not justify anyone to enter the kingdom of God. The 10 commandments are the schoolmaster to teach us that we are incapable of keeping God's righteousness; and that another would have to assuage the penalty of sin for us. The 10 commandments show us the way to our Savior Jesus Christ for He is the fulfillment of the righteous law of God. Our keeping the law is impossible in the flesh.

Impossible in the flesh, absolutely. But do you not believe that by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit in your life, you can keep the Ten Commandments? So long as we remain abiding in Him, with the flesh crucified daily and ourselves surrendered fully, can not God accomplish in us what we in our own strength cannot?

That is precisely what I have been saying in all of my posts. Unless one is born again, born from above, born of God, one cannot keep the law of God which is the picture of His righteousness. Only those who have been born again can keep the law of God; and then only when they are walking in the Spirit, the New Man, the New Creature born of God who CANNOT SIN (1 John 3:9)

In order to not sin, one must know then entire Word of God inside and out, and continually walk in the Spirit in total, complete, submission to God the Father. How many born again believers do you know that know the entire Word of God inside and out, and continually walk in the Spirit. The Apostle Paul did not even attain this mark!

So if eternal salvation is based on one keeping the righteousness of God revealed to us by the law of God, then noone but Jesus Christ will be the only man since his resurrection to enter the kingdom of God.

Therefore, God's law is written on the fleshly hearts of those who are born again, and we are to operate within the law of God. Paul speaks of the inner man delighting in the law of God while the flesh is sold under sin. We are exhorted to walk in the Spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, and not conformed to this world, for those who love the world are at enmity with God Almighty.

Precisely.

Even in our spiritual growth throughout our life on this earth during the sanctification portion after our justification in Christ Jesus (which came at the point of our belief in him when we were born again), we will sin just as Paul explains in Romans 7.

We are not justified by our not sinning; but are justified by Jesus not sinning.

Believers are to walk in the righteous law of God, not for justification but to walk in the Spirit fulfilling the law through Christ Jesus. Does that mean that we should keep the Sabbath day holy? Yes, and not just the Sabbath day, but every single day of the week. Should we rest from our work on the Sabbath day?

I'll stop you right there if I may. Who told you to change the law of God from one specific day to any day? God says the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. The day is specific. It is not the rest that is sanctified and blessed and made holy, if it were, then I could agree with you that you could take that rest anywhere you like. But no. It is the day that is made holy. A specific single day of the week, and we are asked to honor God by remembering that specific day.

Which days of the week do you want to keep unholy and be about your business instead of God's?

I would suggest that born again believers keep every day holy unto God, and to rest totally from their work, and be about the work of the Father.

• 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Mark 2:27

Yes, and we should rest from our work every day of the week, and instead be about the work of our Father in heaven.

Our 'work' in this context is quite different from the secular labour that God intended that we rest from on the Sabbath. Spiritualizing the work does not remove the implications of the commandment.

A born again believer is not associated with "secular" labour. A born again believer is to do all that he does as unto the Lord, whether he is a tent maker, a worker at home, a fireman, a policeman, etc. God is Spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit.

If a born again believer is to operate seven days a week walking in the Spirit, how is he not keeping all seven days holy unto the Lord?

• 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:16-23

Should we not commit adultery? Yes we should not commit adultery, in fact, we should not even look at a woman with lust in our hearts for her. Should we not commit murder? Yes we should not commit murder, in fact we should not even be angry with our brother without cause for it is the same as murder. If we walk according to these principles, will we be justified and born again? NO. We are only justified by the work of Jesus Christ and by the faith of Jesus Christ through our belief in Him.

You keep reminding me that we cannot be justified by obeying the law. Where have I suggested otherwise? That is not the issue. Otherwise what you say is absolutely correct. We must live our lives in conformity with the law. But how? By our own strength? No, but just as you say, by the grace of God and His power in a changed life. We are born again, filled with His Spirit, and renewed in our hearts and minds. Righteousness is not only imputed to us by the death and resurrection of Jesus but imparted to us as well. Praise God!

All sin is the not keeping the law, the righteous commandments of God, and no man can keep all of the commandments of God's righteousness because he/she does not know the entire Word of God. At the point where one walks in obedience to the Holy Spirit that dwells within him/her, then one is well on the way to being sanctified. A babe in Christ has been delivered from the bondage to sin by virtue of Jesus Christ having kept the law and delivered them for condemnation; however, a babe in Christ might not have learned that chewing tobacco is a sin because it harms the temple of God. Just because one is ignorant of what sins are sin, does not alleve one from the penalty of sin. Praise God that Jesus Christ, being the WORD, knew all sin and was innocent of ALL sin, and paid the price for us. Only by being born again, born of God are we able to enter the kingdom of God whether we have sin in our flesh or not, thanks to Jesus Christ.

If we are not saved because we keep the commandments, then how are we saved? We are saved because the Spirit of God births us into the kingdom of God through believing in the faith of Jesus Christ. Nothing on this earth, above this earth, or under this earth can remove us from being the born again children of God Almighty, and we are secure in this salvation which He seals us by Himself as He dwells within us.

Actually, the scriptures say that it is God's love that we cannot be separated from, not our salvation. But that is another discussion. ;)

Actually God's love is that which keeps us eternally secure in spite of sin in our lives that we have; for if we could have kept the 10 commandments, Jesus Christ would not have had to die on the cross and the Holy Spirit come to dwell within us.

I once thought that you could lose your salvation until God taught me the truth. There is no where in the Scriptures that speak of one being born again, and again, and again, and again, and again; but those who adhere to the Conditional Salvation teachings are repenting again, and again, and again, and again, and again for their salvation.

If one can lose their salvation after being born again, can they be born again again? Where is that in Scriputure? Also if one believes that one can be born again again after losing their salvation, then do they get baptized again, and begin as babes in Christ again?

As a side note; Have you ever heard of Joe Crews?

 

[XTruth]

Actually God's love is that which keeps us eternally secure in spite of sin in our lives that we have;

Jn.3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Rom.5:8-9
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Rom.8:35-39
"35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Nothing you say surprises me in the way you interpret all Scripture. Your thought process is running exactly the way it should be for someone who is headed toward the end of their life with the OSAS doctrine. The verses I just posted are basic in the sense of being some of the most well known verses among even those who don't study their Bibles. Yet, you would still believe that God's love is that which keeps us eternally secure in spite of sin in our lives that we have. If it weren't for our sin, then Christ wouldn't have to had died, EVEN though His love was never any greater for the world then, than it is now.

God's love has nothing to do w/ how He is obligated to judge all sinners w/o respecter of person. He loves the condemned so much that He gave His only begotten Son, but yet, most are still condemned b/c of their sin. You fail to understand that God is the lawgiver and cannot bend the law for any man lest He Himself become unrighteous. The law of sin demands eternal death. Your belief that Christians don't sin, yet you yourself call yourself a sinner, is bogus and against numerous Scriptures that are constantly being shown to you. Your belief that God's love keeps people saved is borderline Universal Reconcilation doctrine. God loves all w/ by proof of the price He paid for all, yet even the righteous are scarcely saved. The road is narrow, and few find it, even fewer still will stay on that road and walk through the narrow gate.

I once thought that you could lose your salvation until God taught me the truth. There is no where in the Scriptures that speak of one being born again, and again, and again, and again, and again; but those who adhere to the Conditional Salvation teachings are repenting again, and again, and again, and again, and again for their salvation.

Not true. I can even show you in Scripture where God wants to destroy Israel 4 separate times for their sins, even though they were redeemed, had the Spirit, had grace, had the same gospel we have, and had the new birth.

Here are some other specific examples that I believe you may be able to deal with...there are others still.

Adam and Eve - Genesis 2:17; 3:4-19; Rom.5:12-21; 2 Cor.11:3
Esau - Genesis 25:31-34; Heb.12:15-17
Aaron - Exodus 32:1-6
Nadab and Abihu - Leviticus 10:1-7
Korah, Dathan, Abiram, 250 Holy Men, and Thousands More - Numbers 16:1-35
The Prophet Balaam - Numbers 22:5 – 24:25
Saul - 1 Samuel 9:1 – 31:4
David - 2 Samuel 11:1 – 12:14; Psalms 51
Lucifer - Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:11-18
Judas - Psalms 109:13; Matthew 27:3; Jn.17:12; Acts 1:20-25
Peter’s First Lost Salvation - Mark 14:27-31
Lot’s Wife - Genesis 19:26; Luke 17:30-35
Many Disciples - John 6:60-69
Ananias and Sappira - Acts 5:1-11
The Adamites - Romans 5:12-21
Peter’s Second Lost Salvation - Galatians 2:11-14
Barnabas - Galatians 2:11-14
The Galatians - Galatians 5:1-7
Demas - Colossians 4:14
Hymenaeus and Alexander - 1 Timothy 1:19-20
The Many Young Widows - 1 Timothy 5:11-15
The Many Others - 1 Timothy 6:6-10; 17-21
Hymenaeus and Philetus - 2 Timothy 2:17-18
The Demons - James 2:19
The Apostates -Romans 1:19-32; Heb.6:4-9; 10:26-31; 2 Peter 2:20-22
Israel - Judges 2:11-13; Rom.11:17-24; 1 Cor.10:1-12; Heb.12:25; Jude 5
The Holy Angels - Gen.6:1-4; Job 38:4-7; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6
Many Churches - Revelation 2:1 – 3:22

 

[Solo]

Actually God's love is that which keeps us eternally secure in spite of sin in our lives that we have;

Jn.3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Rom.5:8-9
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Rom.8:35-39
"35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Nothing you say surprises me in the way you interpret all Scripture. Your thought process is running exactly the way it should be for someone who is headed toward the end of their life with the OSAS doctrine. The verses I just posted are basic in the sense of being some of the most well known verses among even those who don't study their Bibles. Yet, you would still believe that God's love is that which keeps us eternally secure in spite of sin in our lives that we have. If it weren't for our sin, then Christ wouldn't have to had died, EVEN though His love was never any greater for the world then, than it is now.

God's love has nothing to do w/ how He is obligated to judge all sinners w/o respecter of person. He loves the condemned so much that He gave His only begotten Son, but yet, most are still condemned b/c of their sin. You fail to understand that God is the lawgiver and cannot bend the law for any man lest He Himself become unrighteous. The law of sin demands eternal death. Your belief that Christians don't sin, yet you yourself call yourself a sinner, is bogus and against numerous Scriptures that are constantly being shown to you. Your belief that God's love keeps people saved is borderline Universal Reconcilation doctrine. God loves all w/ by proof of the price He paid for all, yet even the righteous are scarcely saved. The road is narrow, and few find it, even fewer still will stay on that road and walk through the narrow gate.

I once thought that you could lose your salvation until God taught me the truth. There is no where in the Scriptures that speak of one being born again, and again, and again, and again, and again; but those who adhere to the Conditional Salvation teachings are repenting again, and again, and again, and again, and again for their salvation.

Not true. I can even show you in Scripture where God wants to destroy Israel 4 separate times for their sins, even though they were redeemed, had the Spirit, had grace, had the same gospel we have, and had the new birth.

Here are some other specific examples that I believe you may be able to deal with...there are others still.

Adam and Eve - Genesis 2:17; 3:4-19; Rom.5:12-21; 2 Cor.11:3
Esau - Genesis 25:31-34; Heb.12:15-17
Aaron - Exodus 32:1-6
Nadab and Abihu - Leviticus 10:1-7
Korah, Dathan, Abiram, 250 Holy Men, and Thousands More - Numbers 16:1-35
The Prophet Balaam - Numbers 22:5 – 24:25
Saul - 1 Samuel 9:1 – 31:4
David - 2 Samuel 11:1 – 12:14; Psalms 51
Lucifer - Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:11-18
Judas - Psalms 109:13; Matthew 27:3; Jn.17:12; Acts 1:20-25
Peter’s First Lost Salvation - Mark 14:27-31
Lot’s Wife - Genesis 19:26; Luke 17:30-35
Many Disciples - John 6:60-69
Ananias and Sappira - Acts 5:1-11
The Adamites - Romans 5:12-21
Peter’s Second Lost Salvation - Galatians 2:11-14
Barnabas - Galatians 2:11-14
The Galatians - Galatians 5:1-7
Demas - Colossians 4:14
Hymenaeus and Alexander - 1 Timothy 1:19-20
The Many Young Widows - 1 Timothy 5:11-15
The Many Others - 1 Timothy 6:6-10; 17-21
Hymenaeus and Philetus - 2 Timothy 2:17-18
The Demons - James 2:19
The Apostates -Romans 1:19-32; Heb.6:4-9; 10:26-31; 2 Peter 2:20-22
Israel - Judges 2:11-13; Rom.11:17-24; 1 Cor.10:1-12; Heb.12:25; Jude 5
The Holy Angels - Gen.6:1-4; Job 38:4-7; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6
Many Churches - Revelation 2:1 – 3:22

Nevermind. Debating truth with you will be non-profitable for both of us. Have a great day.

 

[brakelite2]

Apart from the OSAS matter, I have just one point I would make regarding your post. You claim no-one can keep the Ten Commandments. I believe "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me." I have the faith to believe that this is possible. I have the faith to believe that God has the power, and the will, to create me in the image of His Son. This He has promised, in fact it is predestined. Nor do I have to wait till the next life for this to be accomplished. There is no sudden magic wand waved over me at the rapture giving me a newly formed character. What character I develop now will be the same character I enter heaven with. ("He who is filthy, let him be filthy still, he who is righteous, let him be righteous still....").
In fact, if I do not have the faith to believe God can keep me from sinning, then I am effectively saying that either my flesh is stronger than the power of God to save, and change, or that Satan is justified in his rebellion, because it makes it appear that the laws of God are unfair and impossible to obey.
This is righteousness by faith.

And yes, I am familiar with Joe Crews, though I have read very little of his works.

 

[Solo]

Apart from the OSAS matter, I have just one point I would make regarding your post. You claim no-one can keep the Ten Commandments. I believe "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me." I have the faith to believe that this is possible. I have the faith to believe that God has the power, and the will, to create me in the image of His Son. This He has promised, in fact it is predestined. Nor do I have to wait till the next life for this to be accomplished. There is no sudden magic wand waved over me at the rapture giving me a newly formed character. What character I develop now will be the same character I enter heaven with. ("He who is filthy, let him be filthy still, he who is righteous, let him be righteous still....").
In fact, if I do not have the faith to believe God can keep me from sinning, then I am effectively saying that either my flesh is stronger than the power of God to save, and change, or that Satan is justified in his rebellion, because it makes it appear that the laws of God are unfair and impossible to obey.
This is righteousness by faith.

And yes, I am familiar with Joe Crews, though I have read very little of his works.

Brakelite2,

Your point of debate is that we have no excuse for sinning since we can do all things through Christ Jesus who strenthens us, and another Scripture verse that I proclaimed as a babe in Christ was that if Jesus told us to go and sin no more, why would we not believe it possible to cease completely from sin? I had the exact same thoughts concerning sin, and proclaimed it to all that would listen or not listen. After time and study and experience I came to understand more and more about the sinful nature of the flesh, and the difficulty of walking continually in the spirit to the point that I had thought that I had lost my salvation. Both understandings were false, and I have come to know the truth through prayer and study of the Word of God.

Now let me continue in answer to your post, and please do not be offended for correction and reproof are for the edification of the believer to the point of becoming perfect in Christ Jesus able to do all good works.

You have not ceased from sin, so you are bound for hell if your sin is going to be outside of God's grace to save you! The Scriptures teach that where sin abounds, God's grace abounds more!

• 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:19-21

When one is born again it is Christ Jesus' righteousness that gains you access into the Kingdom of God by believing in Him and having believed in the faith of Jesus Christ.

You make the comment that if God cannot keep you from sinning, then effectively you are saying the the flesh is stronger than the power of God to save and change.

Read closely, and as you have time, study the book of Romans as prayerfully and closely as you can!

The flesh is sold under sin and in the flesh dwells no good thing. The born again believer has an inward man that delights in the law of God.

• 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-35

The born again believer is a new creature born of the Holy Spirit and does not sin because he/she is born of God.

• 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

So until the "magic wand" is waved over the born again believers at the First Resurrection, there is a battle going on within each born again believer between the sinful flesh and the sinless inward man. The flesh is corrupt and mortal. The new creature born of God is not flesh but spirit and cannot sin.

• 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

The battle that born again believers have between the sinful flesh and the sinless inward man, the new creature, is why we are admonished throughout the Scriptures to walk in the Spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

• 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Galatians 5:13-25

If we do walk in the flesh and sin, we have an advocate in the Lord Jesus Christ whose righteousness is imputed to us. I will post the Scripure below that teaches these truths.

• 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

You can PM me if you have any other questions or need clarification concerning this post.

Concerning Joe Crews whom I enjoyed listening to and thought highly of:

Joe Crews visited with me at my apartment a few weeks after I was born again. I lived a short distance from Gentry, Arkansas and I have played golf at Dawn Hill golf course just up the road from the SDA Academy. I also have very, very good friends at Gentry and was just there a short while back. There is a Little Debbie's plant at Gentry.

Back to Joe Crews: As he visited with me during a visitation after his month long crusade that I had attended, he continued to say to me, "Now that you know the truth would you like to become a believer?" "Now that you know the truth would you like to join the true church?" "Now that you know the truth would you like to keep the Sabbath Day?" "Now that you know the truth would you like to obey the commandments?" After each question, the Holy Spirit brought verse reference and Scripture to my mind whereby I repeated them as the Holy Spirit provided answers to the questions that I had learned in just a few short weeks. Joe left and thanked me for my time without converting me to his denomination. I was already a child of God and a member of the body of Christ Jesus.

God bless,

Solo

 

[Drew]

Hello brakelite2 (my old friend :D ):

I read your last post and I think I agree with it in large measure. So maybe this time we will be on the same side of an issue. The only qualification I would ask about is this: I assume that you agree that it is possible for a believer to sin. Just to let you know why I ask this: I think I agree with your overall take on this, but I do believe that the Chistian can indeed slip back into "old man" and still sin, without this necessarily meaning that "they are not a Christian in the first place". I find this issue to be tricky.

 

[Drew]

You have not ceased from sin, so you are bound for hell if your sin is going to be outside of God's grace to save you! The Scriptures teach that where sin abounds, God's grace abounds more!

• 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:19-21

I do not think you are in tune with Paul's argument of Romans 5. You use this text as if it applies to the "life experience" of any one believer. Paul is talking about something else - he is talking about God working in history, not in the lives of individuals.

That Paul is talking at the level of an overall redemptive plan, and not at the level of the experience of the individual, is clear from His references to the Torah and to the entire history of the Jews under the Law (and even before the Law). Paul is not writing about the experience of the Christian here and how grace "cancels" sin in the life of the believer. He is writing about how sin abounded in the world at large and how, despite this, God acted in history with abundant grace - by sending Jesus to the cross.

The text you post is part of an argument about the broad sweep of God's redemptive plan, it is not about the dynamics of the life of the individual. That argument is given in Romans 8, and I suggest that it supports the position that my erstwhile opponent (on separation of church and state) has put forward.

 

[Drew]

Read closely, and as you have time, study the book of Romans as prayerfully and closely as you can!

The flesh is sold under sin and in the flesh dwells no good thing. The born again believer has an inward man that delights in the law of God.

• 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-35

Amendment: You may wish to read my next post before you respond to what I have posted below:

Romans 7 is not even addressing the experience of the Christian beilever. In the material that you post, Paul is instead actually describing the state of the (unbelieving) Jew under Torah. The arguments for this are many and I will provide just one of them below. But I suggest that Romans 7 is widely misunderstood to be a description of the struggles of the Christian. It is really about something entirely different.

It is Paul's reflection on the status of the Jew under the Torah.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

Of course not. Paul is looking back here to the time when the advent of the Law - the Torah - brought judgement and death. This is true of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian. Note the specific allusion to the delivery of the Torah at Sinai – “when the commandment cameâ€Â. Clearly, Paul is describing the history of Israel, using himself (a Jew) as a representative. Sin does not "spring to life" in the Christian and produce death. If you accept this, you are taking a very strange position indeed - sin works to produce death in a redeemed saint. This cannot be so.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Sin produces death in the Christian? Sin becomes utterly sinful in the Christian? Of course not.

Please do not misunderstand Romans 7. It is not a transcript of Christian experience. It is what Paul knows to be the case about the plight of the Jew under Torah, as seen from Paul's present state - that of a redeemed saint.

Romans 8 is about the Christian, not Romans 7. And in Romans 8, we see the Christian is set free from the state of affairs that apply to the person in Romans 7.

 

[Drew]

Hello Solo:

From the rest of your post, you appear to hold to a common view: that the human person is "split" into a "flesh part" and a "regenerated part" (the sinless "inner man"). I do not think that this is the correct Bibical position, but I am not prepared to explain in the present post.

I simply bring this up in anticipation that you will argue that this "division" allows you to see Romans 7 as about the "fleshly" part of the Christian. But this issue will indeed re-surface if this thread moves ahead....

 

[Drew]

I apologize for carpet-bombing this thread, but to fill out position about Romans 7, I need to address the issue of the fundamental nature of the Christian. So this is the first of a number of posts that are a mini "series"

Although widely believed, the Scriptures do not support a “two-part†model of the Christian as constituted by a born-again “inner man†and a fallen “fleshâ€Â. This model gets used to underwrite seeing Romans 7 as a description of the struggle of these two components in the life of the Christian. However, there are strong, independent reasons to see Romans 7 as being about the Jew under Torah, not the believer. Clearly, if Romans 7 were indeed about the experiences of the Christian, it would be very hard to escape this two-component model. But since it is not, as argued extensively elsewhere, the two-component model needs to be established on other grounds.

One of the central distinctions that Paul draws is the “spirit-flesh†distinction. This distinction is commonly misunderstood to be a physical vs non-physical distinction. However, this particular misunderstanding is not really at issue here – the two component model that I am critiquing does not depend on seeing the “spirit-flesh†distinction as a distinction between the material (physical) and the immaterial (non-physical.

To set the stage, I would like to fill out the view that I am critiquing. On that view, the Christian is really composed of two parts – the “born again†component and the fallen component. These two components exist simultaneously and essentially do battle with each other (as the matter in Romans 7 indeed suggests). So the life of the Christian is seen as this ongoing tussle between these two highly distinct components – a fallen nature that is in slavery to sin and a redeemed “inner man†that has been freed from such slavery.

However, this position cannot survive the scriptures. I believe that the correct position is that, for the Christian, the “fallen†man - the part of the human person that was previously enslaved to sin – is now dead and gone (praise God).

More shortly.....

 

[Drew]

Part 2:

I offer the following from Romans 6 as proof-texts that the fallen nature is essentially gone:

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Paul clearly sees that the Christian’s sinful nature has died. His rhetoric here is clear – since we are in fact “dead to sinâ€Â, we cannot rationalize sin as simply being the “sin nature†rearing its ugly head.

And this text is even more clear:

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

This text alone makes the whole case – the Christian’s sin nature has died, it has been crucified and we are free from it. Some might counter that Paul is talking about our new self here – the “redeemed†inner man – and it is this part of us that is free. That cannot work since Paul explicitly declares the death of the “old manâ€Â. So unless one is going to argue that when a person becomes a Christian, the old self dies and is replaced with a new sinful nature, one cannot escape the conclusion that the Christian has no fallen nature.

Consider also this famous text:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

It would seem exceedingly challenging to assert that our old fallen nature is still around after coming to faith. Paul clearly states that the old has gone. How can we still be struggling with something that is ostensibly gone?

More next....

 

[Drew]

Part 3:

At this point, the obvious rejoinder is: If our sin nature has died, how is that we still sin? Obviously this is a very good question. Note what Paul says later in Romans 6:

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God,…

Clearly Paul thinks it is still possible for us to sin otherwise he would need to warn us. Besides, the evidence of day-to-day life confirms that Christians do indeed sin. I think that Paul must be admonishing us from abandoning our present state of being fully rescued from sin and returning to our prior state. This may seem like a dance on my part – that I am effectively admitting that we still have a sinful nature. I maintain that I am not doing this at all. There is a meaningful conceptual difference between these positions, the first of which I think is wrong and the second of which I think is right:

1. The Christian is a two-component being, with one part in slavery to sin and the other part freed from it;

2. The Christian is entirely liberated from the power of sin and has one redeemed nature. However, the Christian can “go back†– leave that state and go back to a position of being entirely enslaved to sin.

Now clearly, my embrace of position 2 suggests that I do not ascribe to the OSAS doctrine. And, indeed, I do not think the Scriptures support OSAS.

More next....

 

[Drew]

Last Part:

I suspect that the keen-eyed will object that I have already committed to the statement that the old self is dead. So, if that is really so, how I can talk about a person retreating to that state? Fair enough. My preliminary response is that Paul is using death as a metaphor for the leaving of a family – the family of fallen Adamic humanity. And so the possibility of returning to that family is indeed open.

Lest ye think that I am inventing this to rescue my position, I point out that matters of family membership were central in Paul’s thinking in Romans. In chapters 3 and 4, he makes a protracted argument about who the true members of Abraham’s family are. Family membership was a huge deal in that culture – much more than it is in our 21st century western world. I submit that Paul sees the transition from the Adamic state to that of being a Christian as being precisely akin to leaving one family and joining another. Thus we have the olive tree metaphor from Romans 11 where Paul sees the Gentile as being “grafted into†the olive plant that is the true family of God.

Another item of relevant history. In the history of the early church whenever a Jew would convert to Christianity, the members of that person’s family would declared that the person has “diedâ€Â, and they would even say a “funeral†prayer. So in Paul’s world, we have precedent for the use of death as a metaphor for leaving a family.

So, in summary, I think it is reasonable for us to understand Paul’s statements about the death of old self as countenancing a later return to the old Adamic identity, if that is, sadly, what a person elects to do.

What about Romans 7? Here we have a text where a clear “dualism†is indeed asserted by Paul:

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to doâ€â€this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am!

As hinted at earlier, I believe that this material is descriptive of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian. Furthermore, it is important to note that the arguments for this do not depend on the arguments mooted in the present argument. I am not creating a circular argument, presuming a certain view about the nature of the Christian and using that assumption to interpret Romans 7 a certain way. The arguments about Romans 7 being about the Jew under Torah are, I claim, almost entirely independent from the arguments I making here.

So indeed, we do have Paul talking about a “dual†or two component nature of a Jew who is not a Christian. Fine. I have no problem with that. Such a view dovetails perfectly well with the argument I am advancing. When the Jew comes to faith, the part of him in slavery to sin indeed dies. He joins a new family.

 

[francisdesales]

Last Part:...

Well done...

I look at it this way:

The saved man now has a new Principle guiding him, the Holy Spirit. Before, we didn't have His guiding Principle within us. But a guiding principle does not overwhelm our own free will. We certainly can ignore the abiding presence within us and return to the vomit of our past lives. However, even during those moments, that Guiding Principle does not give up and leave. We still have the ability to repent and return.

I also like the fact that you point out that we are in a familial relationship first, not a legal one. Grace is better understood within that setting, since we all understand how we freely forgive our children who fail from time to time. There is no need to invent a "covering up" for our child's sake before forgiveness takes place. In Grace, all we need is to turn to our Father and ask for forgiveness.

Regards

 

[Drew]

I also like the fact that you point out that we are in a familial relationship first, not a legal one. Grace is better understood within that setting, ....

I agree, of course, and think that we need to rediscover the cultural matrix from which the Scriptures arose. Unlike our 21st century western world, family (or more generally "tribe") was a hugely important construct in the world of Palestine 2000+ years ago. We should try to remember that the scriptures were written in a culture quite different from our own.