Higgs Boson

[stovebolts]

Hi Ato,

There's nothing in those passages that states whether they are talking about recorded time or the "creation of time".

People use the phrase "before the beginning of time" a lot but it is not to be taken literally.

That's what I was addressing.

 

[hadron]

You're missing the point. The suggestion is the Bible is right about it, giving credence to the existence of who Christians say is the author of the Bible--God. The God so many unbelievers and atheists insist does not exist partly because of so many ridiculous and unscientific claims made in the Bible.

How is it that the people of God already knew that the material world really did come from nothing? Scientifically, how does that work? Well, now we're seeing how it's completely reasonable and possible, not just absurd, illogical, unscientific, man made Biblical claims.

This is just another example of how science confirms what the Bible has been declaring to be the truth for centuries. Something that, without science, is completely illogical and ridiculous and has to be taken on faith as being true.

I don't see this. The higgs is predicted to exist by the standard model to explain spontaneous symmetry breaking between the electromagnetic and weak forces (for one thing). Nothing about the higgs says that something comes from absolutely NOTHING at all. There is a higgs field.

 

[Atothetheist]

Hi Ato,



That's what I was addressing.

Yeah, I know, just thought i would share my idea.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see this. The higgs is predicted to exist by the standard model to explain spontaneous symmetry breaking between the electromagnetic and weak forces (for one thing). Nothing about the higgs says that something comes from absolutely NOTHING at all. There is a higgs field.

Okay.

That's what I was asking at the beginning of the thread.

Thanks.

Must have been another subject I stumbled onto in a recent Stephen Colbert show. I tried to find it on line and couldn't.

 

[Atothetheist]

How can "Before the beginning of time" be reviewed? Do you still not comprehend the fact that we would NEVER be able to understand a being as powerful as God?



Do you really need to reach THAT far to try and cloud the meaning the bible gives? "Beginning of time" not "Beginning of recorded time".

Beginning = The start a.k.a the very first moment after creation

Those passages were not metaphors. I am sure you would like them to be, though.

We could do this all day, guys. The reality is that the passages are there, and they are clear. You don't have to accept them. Even God says people will remain blind no matter what evidence they see.

You are able to do expierements to find out about the nothingness before everything, in theory. Once you concluded the expierements and published your findings.... Then it gets peerreviewed. The ignorance in your statement shows how much you know about the scientific process.

As for the passages, can you tell me how you can constitute what is metaphor and what is not.Does God tell you? Or are you choosing to believe because you have no other way of interpretating the verses or evidence in the scientific field. Tell me how you know that they wern't metaphors.

 

[Atothetheist]

Okay.

That's what I was asking at the beginning of the thread.

Thanks.

Must have been another subject I stumbled onto in a recent Stephen Colbert show. I tried to find it on line and couldn't.

I believe you are talking about Lawrence Krauss's A Universe From Nothing

First, it doesn't prove the bible is correct because it is logical to assume that in The beginning there was nothing.

Second.... This does not prove your God is correct simply because there MIGHT be other ways to create from nothing, and science hasn't found a God in the process. You are making an argument from ingnorance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe you are talking about Lawrence Krauss's A Universe From Nothing

Could be. I'll check it out.

 

[AlexBC]

How can "Before the beginning of time" be reviewed? Do you still not comprehend the fact that we would NEVER be able to understand a being as powerful as God?



Do you really need to reach THAT far to try and cloud the meaning the bible gives? "Beginning of time" not "Beginning of recorded time".

Beginning = The start a.k.a the very first moment after creation

Those passages were not metaphors. I am sure you would like them to be, though.

We could do this all day, guys. The reality is that the passages are there, and they are clear. You don't have to accept them. Even God says people will remain blind no matter what evidence they see.

The point is that those passages still do not go out of their way to say "oh, btw. Not figurative. We mean literal here, folks!".

I trust that it is the word of God but if you think God was actually sitting there penning this book then you are deluded. it's still the penmenship of a bronze age writer and subjected to who knows how many translations, interpolations over the years and most likely the overzealous exaggerations of the actual writer.

 

[AlexBC]

I believe you are talking about Lawrence Krauss's A Universe From Nothing

First, it doesn't prove the bible is correct because it is logical to assume that in The beginning there was nothing.

Second.... This does not prove your God is correct simply because there MIGHT be other ways to create from nothing, and science hasn't found a God in the process. You are making an argument from ingnorance.

What is the general consensus among physicists as to the "existence" of "nothing". Can nothing even exist?

That was worded so poorly (^_^)

 

[Atothetheist]

What is the general consensus among physicists as to the "existence" of "nothing". Can nothing even exist?

That was worded so poorly (^_^)

What do you mean?

 

[stovebolts]

There's nothing in those passages that states whether they are talking about recorded time or the "creation of time".

People use the phrase "before the beginning of time" a lot but it is not to be taken literally.

Hi Alex,

I was wondering if you would answer this little question for me. I'm sure you didn't notice it earlier.

Define time... In it's simplest form, I view time as the measurement between two points.

 

[Atothetheist]

Hi Alex,

I was wondering if you would answer this little question for me. I'm sure you didn't notice it earlier.

Define time... In it's simplest form, I view time as the measurement between two points.

Was my definition not good for you?

 

[hadron]

What is the general consensus among physicists as to the "existence" of "nothing". Can nothing even exist?

That was worded so poorly (^_^)

Whether or not absolutely nothing at all can meaningful 'exist' strikes me more as a philosophical question. This gets tricky. What we normally think as 'nothing' isn't pure NOTHING whatsoever to physical models. Empty space, for instance, is full of fields that manifest themselves as a sea of virtual particles popping in and out of existence. There are cosmological models that have the universe tunnel across an 'unphysical' potential to come into existence. But notice, all of these models require positing 'something' happening, the wave eqn for the universe, for example, potentials to be tunneled through, fields, and so on.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

What is the general consensus among physicists as to the "existence" of "nothing". Can nothing even exist?

That was worded so poorly (^_^)

There's a lot of ambiguity. What most people would consider "nothing" (ie. a vacuum, devoid of all matter) might exist, depending on how small you're willing to go and what amount of space is required to be completely empty.

Add to that relativity, which basically states that matter and energy are interchangeable. So even if there's no mass, but sunlight (for example) is going through it, you have photons.

This doesn't even touch on string theory, a can of worms that only a mathematician could love.

On the plus side, we've mostly eliminated superstring theory. 26 or bust.

 

[AlexBC]

Whether or not absolutely nothing at all can meaningful 'exist' strikes me more as a philosophical question. This gets tricky. What we normally think as 'nothing' isn't pure NOTHING whatsoever to physical models. Empty space, for instance, is full of fields that manifest themselves as a sea of virtual particles popping in and out of existence. There are cosmological models that have the universe tunnel across an 'unphysical' potential to come into existence. But notice, all of these models require positing 'something' happening, the wave eqn for the universe, for example, potentials to be tunneled through, fields, and so on.

That's my bug-bear with most of the arguments that other Chrsitians use to shoot down things like Big Bang. They posit that nothing exists when it's very unlikely that nothing could in fact exist, at least in the way they define "nothing".

And I never like to bring philosophy into the arena. Fortunately, philosophy has very little to do with cosmology, astrophysics etc.

And I fail to see how a definition of time (like that's easy?) would change the context of those passages in the the Bible.

 

[AlexBC]

On the plus side, we've mostly eliminated superstring theory. 26 or bust.

I must be out of the loop. When was Super-string theory rendered an obsolete model?

Isn't it within superstring theory that we have some possible explanation as to why matter throughout the universe tends to exist in great big clumps rather than a more even distribution?

Again, i'm just coming up to speed with a lot of the literature.

 

[stovebolts]

There's nothing in those passages that states whether they are talking about recorded time or the "creation of time".

People use the phrase "before the beginning of time" a lot but it is not to be taken literally.

That's a hard thing to do.

Scientists know "Time" has a beginning. Right at the Big Bang. They are willing to concede, and in fact, are happy to concede that something predates time. But just because it predates time, doesn't mean it didn't have a cause.

Time is a measurment of, I hate to say it, moments observed in our universe. You can not say that just because the thing predates the common notion of time, that thing is uncaused.

The Higgs,or the God particle, as it is FALSELY named, is just a particle that gives mass, even if we do find it, it wouldn't give credence to ANY deity, unless God was directly manipulating it to give Mass, and that manipulation, and it's source, can be observed, and tested.

Your comments did not address the scriptures. Alex believes there is a God, you don't. My argument is not about if God exists or not, which is your argument, not mine.

My argument to Alex is this. Time is the measurement between two points and time as we know it is measured by the heavenly bodies. For example, a day is one full rotation of the earth and one year is a rotation around the sun. It is the distance between the two points that are being measured, and we call that time.

For time to exist as we know it, there must be mass because anytime you have mass, you have two points which to measure. Thus, time as we know it did not start with the big bang.

Scripture states that in the beginning, God created heaven and earth. Before heaven and earth what was there to measure? I would suggest only eternity. And of cause? Because God is community. God is love. And what is love? Love is the end of happiness.

 

[Elijah674]

Your comments did not address the scriptures. Alex believes there is a God, you don't. My argument is not about if God exists or not, which is your argument, not mine.

My argument to Alex is this. Time is the measurement between two points and time as we know it is measured by the heavenly bodies. For example, a day is one full rotation of the earth and one year is a rotation around the sun. It is the distance between the two points that are being measured, and we call that time.

For time to exist as we know it, there must be mass because anytime you have mass, you have two points which to measure. Thus, time as we know it did not start with the big bang.

Scripture states that in the beginning, God created heaven and earth. Before heaven and earth what was there to measure? I would suggest only eternity. And of cause? Because God is community. God is love. And what is love? Love is the end of happiness.

'Before heaven and earth what was there to measure?' ;) But God does recreat a New Heaven + Earth with time, huh!

Isa. 66
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

 

[Atothetheist]

Your comments did not address the scriptures. Alex believes there is a God, you don't. My argument is not about if God exists or not, which is your argument, not mine.

My argument to Alex is this. Time is the measurement between two points and time as we know it is measured by the heavenly bodies. For example, a day is one full rotation of the earth and one year is a rotation around the sun. It is the distance between the two points that are being measured, and we call that time.

For time to exist as we know it, there must be mass because anytime you have mass, you have two points which to measure. Thus, time as we know it did not start with the big bang.

Scripture states that in the beginning, God created heaven and earth. Before heaven and earth what was there to measure? I would suggest only eternity. And of cause? Because God is community. God is love. And what is love? Love is the end of happiness.

Other matter. Are you serious? Things formed before the earth.

Time as we know it is a measurement of actions. How long did that action take? How short was it compared to this other action?

We know there were actions before the earth, therefore time predates earth. The only time we haven't found out about actions, is before the bigbang. That's where time begins.

The God particle was a particle that was created at the Big Bang, things had mass way back then.

 

[Elijah674]

Other matter. Are you serious? Things formed before the earth.

Time as we know it is a measurement of actions. How long did that action take? How short was it compared to this other action?

We know there were actions before the earth, therefore time predates earth. The only time we haven't found out about actions, is before the bigbang. That's where time begins.

The God particle was a particle that was created at the Big Bang, things had mass way back then.

Big Bang? David said God Spake & it stood fast! Job says that God hung the earth on nothing! Hey, some of us believe God, huh!

Then there is the Obad. 1:16
'... and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.'

So it won't matter much how some believe perhaps? Hmmm... just GONE? Gone FOR ETERNITY!

Yet if one was sincere they might get some help on Dan. 2!

--Elijah