Higher moral teaching. Jesus or Muhammad?

[Gary]

Top Signs You're a New Age Fundy

You are a New Age Fundy when .... you don't understand nor do you believe the Bible; you think Muhammad is someone to admire; you have trouble distinguishing between the actions of Muhammad (which are not questioned at all in the Quran) and the actions and consequences of some of the "heroes" in the OT.



P.S. Now stay on topic SomaSite... this thread is about the moral/ethical thoughts, words and actions of Muhammad and Jesus.

 

[Guest]

gary

Gary.


Your wasting your time.

 

[Gary]

Re: gary

Gary.
Your wasting your time.

What do you think the difference is between Jesus' moral teaching and actions and Muhammad's moral teachings and actions?

 

[Guest]

What do you think the difference is between Jesus' moral teaching and actions and Muhammad's moral teachings and actions?

No Diffrenece between them and Jesus follows Mohammad now. Jesus also said a Prophet will come after me by the name Ahmad which is MOhammad in arabic and the same.



so don't waste your little time in this life quoting hadith's and verses when you don't know their inteppretations.

you fool

 

[Gary]

What do you think the difference is between Jesus' moral teaching and actions and Muhammad's moral teachings and actions?

No Diffrenece between them and Jesus follows Mohammad now.

I don't think so. Jesus does not murder. Jesus does not have sex with a 9 year old child. Jesus does not encourage his followers to murder their enemies.... Jesus commands us to "love our enemies"... Muhammad never understood that.

Jesus also said a Prophet will come after me by the name Ahmad which is MOhammad in arabic and the same.

Really? Where and when did Jesus say that? Which book of the Bible? Please quote book/chapter/verse.

:wink: :wink:

you fool

Time and posts will show if this is true. So far you have made a less-than-convincing case for Muhammad.

 

[Soma-Sight]

so don't waste your little time in this life quoting hadith's and verses when you don't know their inteppretations.

you fool

gary,

Remember the many times you have told me that my blogging of the OT atrocities is merely "out of context".

Here you have the same situation where a Muslim says the same thing about the atrocities of Islam!

Amazing is it not!

Why not do some good works for a Muslim rather than tear down his/her Faith.

They are more likely to accept Christ through your compassion than through your casting of stones!

 

[Guest]

gary

Gary.

read my words.


your a looser

 

[Free]

Cleft Asunder,

Please familiarize yourself with the rules of the forum. If you cannot answer someone's questions, do not call them names.

 

[Gary]

As I have said to you many times SomaSite, stay on topic. This thread is about Jesus and Muhammad. If you have nothing to contribute (which I strongly suggest is the case) rather not post.

Stay on topic please. Have you ANYTHING to add on the deeds of Jesus or Muhammad which show their moral teachings or actions?



May I suggest that you look at Jesus' two fundamental commandments. "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:36-40 (Reference to Deuteronomy 6:5
Leviticus 19:18 )

I am going to suggest that there is no equivalent in Islam.

 

[Gary]

Cleft Asunder the loser

Gary.

read my words.

your a looser

Exactly what is a "looser"? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=looser As the word is an adjective, I would have to be "looser" than something! ... or else it is like saying that "If I am a looser, your are a tighter"

:wink:

 

[Soma-Sight]

I am going to suggest that there is no equivalent in Islam.

Maybe your right...

Who cares!

I was born in a Christian family, attend a Christian University, and pretty much know only people from the evangelical camp in some denom one way or the other.

I should just get on the bandwagon and proclaim that Islam is a Satanic religion and be done with it right?

Sure there are 1.5 billion Muslims and I am sure they HAVE NO GOOD REASON for thinking Muhamad is a true Prophet!

:angel:

"And the true servants of the God of Mercy are those who walk upon the earth humbly; and when the ignorant address them, reply "Peace"; and they pass the night praying to their Lord, prostrating and standing." (Quran 25:63 - 64)

 

[Gary]

Teaching SomoSite about Christianity and Islam

Gary: May I suggest that you look at Jesus' two fundamental commandments. "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:36-40 (Reference to Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 ) I am going to suggest that there is no equivalent in Islam.

SomoSite: Maybe your right...

Gary: As you have read neither the Quran nor the Hadith, I doubt you could prove me wrong!

SomoSite: Who cares!

Gary: Me and many other Christians. Obviously not you! Given your thinking, I guess we would expect nothing more.

SomoSite: I was born in a Christian family, attend a Christian University, and pretty much know only people from the evangelical camp in some denom one way or the other.

Gary: Who cares? YOU claimed to know many people from other faiths... so which is it now?

SomoSite: I should just get on the bandwagon and proclaim that Islam is a Satanic religion and be done with it right?

Gary: Most people (like you) know very little about Islam. They know even less (like you) about Muhammad. Why not base your opinion on facts? Read the Quran and the Hadith for yourself.

SomoSite: Sure there are 1.5 billion Muslims and I am sure they HAVE NO GOOD REASON for thinking Muhamad is a true Prophet!

Gary: There are probably only 1.2 billion Muslims.... but many (if not most) know very little about the real Muhammad. They cannot read Arabic and the hadith (the sayings and deeds of Muhammad) have only recently been translated. They are misled by their Muslim teachers (Imams). The Hadith which expose the real Muhammad as a murderer, slave trader, child molester (he married and had sex with a 9 year-old child) are hidden from them. :o

Gary: Again I urge you... this thread is about the moral teachings of Muhammad and Jesus. I contend that the moral teaching of "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself".... (which, by the way, existed in OT law) are a higher moral teaching than Muhammad ever taught.

Now let's move onto "Love your enemy" ..... anything like that in Muhammad's teachings?

:D :D

 

[Soma-Sight]

Fair enough Gary...

Gary: Who cares? YOU claimed to know many people from other faiths... so which is it now?

I have a girl in my class that is full blooded Islam to the max.....

All her family is Muslim and she grew up in Afganistan.

In our Christian University we are required to attend Wednesday Services for religious credit.

I asked her if any of the "conversion" stuff was working at her heart and bringing her to Jesus last week. She said NO! Half of the time she sleeps in services and thinks it is very insesitive to believe her whole faith is "evil".

She proclaimed to me that she believes in ONE GOD and respects Jesus but feels no reason to worship Him.

I could see the Truth in this as I was RAISED being told Jesus is God while she was not.

I have actually learned a lot about Islam from her including the "Five Pillars" that she tries to follow.

All in all she is very "Christlike" and an interesting person!

You have your reasons gary to believe that Islam is evil to you thorugh your apologetics reasonings.

But Islam has reasons to believe that the Gospel miracles were fabricated due to the fact that they were not even written by eye witnesses! (Gospel of John 100 A.D for example)

 

[Gary]

SomoSite asked to use his brain.

But Islam has reasons to believe that the Gospel miracles were fabricated due to the fact that they were not even written by eye witnesses! (Gospel of John 100 A.D for example)

Oh dear... SomoSite, I honestly wonder about your claim that you are/were Christian! (or even at a University!)

Look at the facts and use your brain.

Your Muslim friend does not believe the Gospel... because John was written 90AD?? What about Matthew and Mark and Luke? Matthew was an Apostle. Mark walked with Peter. Luke walked with Paul and had access to all the Apostles. He claims to have carefully researched the events. The Christian faith grew from nothing.... to thousands after Pentecost. The Gospel may not have been written then but it was being preached BY THE SAME APOSTLES WHO WALKED WITH JESUS.

Now lets consider the Quran... and what it says about Jesus. Muhammad was born in 570AD... and had his first "experience" with a spirit in 610AD. Over the next 20+ years, Muhammad was to speak several things about Jesus.

Now let us consider the facts. Who was closer to Jesus?

• Matthew: An Apostle
  John: An Apostle
  Mark: A companion of the Apostles
  Luke: A companion of the Apostles (and a Gentile)
  or...
  or...
  Muhammad: born 610 years later! :roll:

Get real.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Your Muslim friend does not believe the Gospel... because John was written 90AD?? What about Matthew and Mark and Luke? Matthew was an Apostle. Mark walked with Peter. Luke walked with Paul and had access to all the Apostles. He claims to have carefully researched the events. The Christian faith grew from nothing.... to thousands after Pentecost. The Gospel may not have been written then but it was being preached BY THE SAME APOSTLES WHO WALKED WITH JESUS.

Mark is the only one that could have possibly been written by an eye witness.

The rest were written at a point where any eye witnesses would be dead.

There is NO proof of WHO wrote the Gospels in any account.

They are ATTRIBUTED to Matt, Mark, etc...

And as far as the "faith given to all the saints....." Paul disagreed with James as well as Peter on some accounts.

And there was no "central Church creeds" until well after Jesus Resurrection.[

Remember the Gnostics? :wink: [/b]

 

[Gary]

Stick to the topic...

This thread is about the moral teaching of Jesus and Muhammad. But before we get to that, let me again totally rebut what you have written (P.S. Please continue your posts; they offer me a great opportunity to post the truth in rebutting your rubbish)..

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Do you trust Muhammad?

Do YOU (SomaSite) trust Muhammad to give you the correct facts about Jesus?

How would Muhammad know 610 years later?

Do you even know that Muhammad claimed that Jesus performed miracles? How would Muhammad know this 610 years later?

Yes, you guessed right! Muhammad PLAGIARIZED (like you often do) using material without quoting the source. The Quran states that Jesus was able to impart life to the bird shaped from clay. (al-Ma'idah 5:110)

So what? Well, the story is actually from the apocrypha!!!

Now SomaSite.... please tell your Muslim friend about that miracle. I thought there were no miracles by Jesus? LOL... the REAL "miracle" is how Muhammad knew about Jesus 610 years later!

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Who wrote the Gospel of Matthew?

The canonicity and Matthean authorship of this gospel were unchallenged in the early church. Eusebius (ca. a.d. 265–339) quotes Origen (ca. a.d. 185–254):

Among the four Gospels, which are the only indisputable ones in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was written by Matthew, who was once a publican, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, and it was prepared for the converts from Judaism (Ecclesiastical History, 6:25).

It is clear that this gospel was written at a relatively early dateâ€â€prior to the destruction of the temple in a.d. 70. Some scholars have proposed a date as early as a.d. 50.



Matthew (20-40 years after Jesus' resurrection) or Muhammad (610 years later)..... Who would YOU trust?

:wink:

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Now back to the topic..... Did Muhammad say anything about "Love your enemy"? Or was his moral code: "Murder your enemy"?

.

 

[DivineNames]

Compare what Jesus taught and practiced to what Muhammad taught...

• (1) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ There is no such concept in Islam.
  
  (2) You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Again, no such concept in Islam. (Remember to consider Jesus' definition of "neighbor" in the parable of the good Samaritan.)

So again, Muhammad falls short of Jesus' teachings and commandments. Jesus also lived a higher standard:

Jesus taught love and forgiveness. He lived that.
Muhammad taught hated and revenge. He lived that.


Two opposite and conflicting messages

Jesus

• Jesus taught us how to love our enemy, how to pray and forgive others. He showed it in His words and deeds:
  
  Jesus taught us to even love our enemy and to pray for those who persecute you: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. [Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Matthew (Chapter 5:43-45) - NASB translation]
  
  Jesus also taught us the how to pray and how to forgive others: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. “Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’
  
  “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. “But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. [Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Matthew (Chapter 6:7-15) - NASB translation]
  
  Jesus not only taught this, He acted it out: When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.†[Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Luke (Chapter 23:33-34) - NASB translation]

Muhammad

• Muhammad taught (650+ years later) the complete opposite: "It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire." [Qur'an according to Muhammad (Sura 9:113) – translation by A. Yusuf Ali]

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Conclusion: There can only be ONE ultimate truth. Islam (through Muhammad) and Christianity (through Jesus Christ) both claim that. Read these passages again and consider which of these moral teachings is from God.

"when preaching the gospel... we should not tell our hearers that God loves all of them, but we should boldly declare that God loves only the elect and desires (and thus has decreed) their salvation, and that he hates the reprobates and desires (and thus has decreed) their damnation"

Vincent Cheung, The Author of Sin, p.35.
http://www.rmiweb.org/books/authorsin.pdf


So this is one interpretation of the message of Jesus and the Bible by a hard-core Calvinist. Obviously many Christians would strongly disagree with him, but it is one interpretation, and I have to say that it doesn't look any better than what Muhammad taught. Perhaps it is worse than Islam?

 

[DivineNames]

I came across-

The verb elect means “to select, or choose out.†The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom he would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:28-39; Eph. 1:3-14; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; 2 Tim. 1:9-10). This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects.

http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/pa ... ection.htm

:o

Unconditional election?

Your having a laugh Gary. If this is what you believe, Jesus is a zillion times more evil than Muhammad.

 

[Gary]

Thanks for the links. Nothing new... one was mine anyway!

Now back to the topic.... what did Jesus TEACH and PRACTICE compared to what Muhammad TAUGHT and PRACTICED... which is a higher moral code? Who would YOU follow?

Jesus said:

• I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. (John 6:35)
  
  I am the Light of the World; he who follows Me will not walk in darkness but will have the light of life (John 8:12)
  
  I am the Door; if any one enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. (John 10:9)
  
  I am the Resurrection and the Life; he who believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. (John 11:25)
  
  I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me. (John 14:6)

Muhammad said:

• "...If you love Allah, then follow me (Mohammed)..." (Sura 3:31)
  
  "Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day." (Sura 33:21)

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If it is demanded of a person that he follow and obey a certain leader he may weigh up the pros and cons and reach a decision. But when Truth and eternal life are involved, expediency on temporal issues matters no longer. So when we are told to follow the footsteps of a spiritual leader, our confidence must not be emotional only, but most important of all, it must be rational. -here-

Jesus taught love and forgiveness. He lived that.
Muhammad taught hated and revenge. He lived that.

Who would YOU follow? I follow my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

 

[Bilal]

GAry, what you think of Muhammad (pbuh) is your own opinion, but do not enforce it as absolute fact upon others. "Revengeful"?

You are severly mislead. I could spend some time on here dictacting to you the masses of people the prophet (pbuh) forgave, despite their atrocities towards Islam and even his OWN RELATIVES!! He forgave the woman (Wahshi) who ordered the death of his Uncle Hamza, and she ate his insides, such was here hatred....Tell me, what would a normal average sinful human being do in that situation?

He also forgave thousands of Pagans who committed atrocities against Muslims and Muslims' families.

Personal Revenge Helps the Devil:

Narrated Sa'id ibn al-Musayyab: "While the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) was sitting with some of his companions, a man reviled AbuBakr and insulted him. But AbuBakr remained silent. He insulted him twice, but AbuBakr controlled himself. He insulted him thrice and AbuBakr took revenge on him. Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) got up when AbuBakr took revenge.

AbuBakr said: Were you angry with me, Apostle of Allah?

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) replied: An angel came down from Heaven and he was rejecting what he had said to you. When you took revenge, a devil came down. I was not going to sit when the devil came down. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, General Behavior (Kitab Al-Adab), Book 41, Number 4878)"


Narrated Aisha: "Whenever the Prophet was given an option between two things, he used to select the easier of the tow as long as it was not sinful; but if it was sinful, he would remain far from it. By Allah, he never took revenge for himself concerning any matter that was presented to him, but when Allah's Limits were transgressed, he would take revenge for Allah's Sake. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Limits and Punishments set by Allah (Hudood), Volume 8, Book 81, Number 777)"


Narrated 'Aisha: "Whenever Allah's Apostle was given the choice of one of two matters he would choose the easier of the two as long as it was not sinful to do so, but if it was sinful, he would not approach it. Allah's Apostle never took revenge over anybody for his own sake but (he did) only when Allah's legal bindings were outraged, in which case he would take revenge for Allah's sake. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 147)"


Narrated 'Aisha: "Whenever Allah's Apostle was given the choice of one of two matters, he would choose the easier of the two, as long as it was not sinful to do so, but if it was sinful to do so, he would not approach it. Allah's Apostle never took revenge (over anybody) for his own sake but (he did) only when Allah's Legal Bindings were outraged in which case he would take revenge for Allah's Sake. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 760)"