D
DivineNames
Guest
Gary said:
If you believe in unconditional election then Jesus lived a life of sheer evil. That would make Jesus the most evil person that has ever lived. That you attack Muhammad and Islam is a joke.
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If you believe in unconditional election then Jesus lived a life of sheer evil. That would make Jesus the most evil person that has ever lived. That you attack Muhammad and Islam is a joke.
D
DivineNames
Guest
Gary said:
If unconditional election is Biblical, then it certainly looks to be something that (on your Christian premise) Jesus would teach and even (in certain ways) practice in his life.
Furthermore, if unconditional election is true, we could well question if Jesus would really have a sincere love towards everyone. I don't think he would, and that would make him a hypocrite. Now if Jesus doesn't really love everyone, and if he happens to be something of a hypocrite, does that not damage your argument?
G
Gary
Guest
Exposing the Muslims and Muhammad's evil actions
Not true at all. Muhammad's whole life is littered with PERSONAL revenge. Anyone who opposed him was liable to be on the receiving end of his personal revenge.
:o :o
Bilal said:
Not true at all. Muhammad's whole life is littered with PERSONAL revenge. Anyone who opposed him was liable to be on the receiving end of his personal revenge.
- Muhammad had Abu Afak (who was 120!) murdered... in the night, while he slept
Muhammad was bothered by Asma bint Marwan words and wanted her silenced ... so he had her murdered
Allowing deception to achieve his goals, Muhammad agreed to the murder of Kab al-Ashraf
Muhammad tortured and then killed Kinana.... for money (treasure)
:o :o
D
DivineNames
Guest
DivineNames said:
Gary, I do hope you are going to respond to this.
D
DivineNames
Guest
Re: Exposing the Muslims and Muhammad's evil actions
I believe that Muhammad did indulge in personal revenge. However, if a Muslim wants to say that Muhammad was doing the will of God, and God can do what he likes, or command what he likes, then that seems to be no different to the kind of excuse that Christians will sometimes use.
Gary said:
I believe that Muhammad did indulge in personal revenge. However, if a Muslim wants to say that Muhammad was doing the will of God, and God can do what he likes, or command what he likes, then that seems to be no different to the kind of excuse that Christians will sometimes use.
B
Bilal
Guest
Re: Exposing the Muslims and Muhammad's evil actions
Abu Afak
According to Ibn Sa’d and Ibn Ishaq, Abu ‘Afak was a 120 years old Jewish man who abused the Prophet (peace be upon him) verbally, so the latter launched a raid under the command of Salem Ibn ‘Umair to kill him. Well, we know that Ibn Ishaq lived in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Higra, as well as Al-Waqidi from whom Ibn Sa’d (died 230 A.H.) copied the story of Abu ‘Afak.
As explained above, the chain of reporters of the story from eye-witnesses of the event till Ibn Ishaq or Al-Waqidi must be examined and verified. So, our legitimate question is: where is the isnad (i.e., chain of reporters)?
Unfortunately, references of Seera do not provide such information. Actually, we are told that this story has no isnad at all; neither Ibn Ishaq (or his disciple Ibn Hesham) nor Al-Waqidi (or his disciple Ibn Sa’d) provide such thing!!
In this case, the story is rated by Hadith scholars as “of no basis†indicating that it has reached the lowest degree of criticism regarding its isnad. This is in fact a proper scientific position because we cannot accept such a problematic story without evidence.We are obliged to reject the story of the killing of Abu ‘Afak by Salem Ibn ‘Umair at the Prophet’s command.
In brief, we have no commitment to accept such a baseless story - according to scientific criteria of reeports’ criticism - which strangely appeared in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Higra.
That is unless you can give me the isnad?
Asma
"The charge is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) had ordered the killing of 'Asma' when she insulted him with her poetry, and the implications are that he (peace be upon him) "stiffles" criticism by murdering his opponents. As it is usually the case where the history of Islam and the character of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is concerned, it is left to the Muslims to throw some light on authenticity of the story in which this incident is reported by the sources and educate the missionaries in matters which they have no clue about.
The story of the killing of 'Asma' bint Marwan is mentioned by Ibn Sa'd in "Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir"[1] and by the author of "Kinz-ul-'Ummal" under number 44131 who attributes it to Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adiyy and Ibn 'Asaker. What is interesting is that Ibn 'Adiyy mentions it in his book "Al-Kamel" on the authority of Ja'far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu'abi on authority of Ibn 'Abbas, and added that
...this isnad (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.[2]
It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in "Al-'Ilal"[3] and is listed among other flawed reports.
So according to its isnad, the report is forged - because one of its reporters is accused of fabricating hadith. Hence, such a story is better put in trash can. "
Kab al-Ashraf
"Kab was openly hostile to Islam. He lampooned the Prophet, besmirched in verse the reputation of Muslim women, and incited the tribes in and around Madinah against the Prophet and Islam. He was particularly distressed when he heard the news of the Muslim victory at Badr. When he saw the returning army with the Quraysh prisoners of war, he was bitter and furious. He took it upon himself then to make the long journey to Makkah to express his grief and to incite the Quraysh to take further revenge. He also went to other areas, from tribe to tribe, urging people to take up arms against the Prophet.
Kab had become a real danger to the state of peace and mutual trust which the Prophet was struggling to achieve in Madinah.
Kab returned to Madinah and continued his verbal attacks on the Prophet and his abuse of Muslim women
He refused, after warnings from the Prophet, to stop his dirty campaign and sinister intrigues. He was bent on fomenting a revolt against the Prophet and the Muslims in Madinah. By all these actions, Kab had openly declared war against the Prophet. He was dangerous and a public enemy to the nascent Muslim state."
From here
Have to go to sleep now...zzzzzzzz
Gary said:
Abu Afak
According to Ibn Sa’d and Ibn Ishaq, Abu ‘Afak was a 120 years old Jewish man who abused the Prophet (peace be upon him) verbally, so the latter launched a raid under the command of Salem Ibn ‘Umair to kill him. Well, we know that Ibn Ishaq lived in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Higra, as well as Al-Waqidi from whom Ibn Sa’d (died 230 A.H.) copied the story of Abu ‘Afak.
As explained above, the chain of reporters of the story from eye-witnesses of the event till Ibn Ishaq or Al-Waqidi must be examined and verified. So, our legitimate question is: where is the isnad (i.e., chain of reporters)?
Unfortunately, references of Seera do not provide such information. Actually, we are told that this story has no isnad at all; neither Ibn Ishaq (or his disciple Ibn Hesham) nor Al-Waqidi (or his disciple Ibn Sa’d) provide such thing!!
In this case, the story is rated by Hadith scholars as “of no basis†indicating that it has reached the lowest degree of criticism regarding its isnad. This is in fact a proper scientific position because we cannot accept such a problematic story without evidence.We are obliged to reject the story of the killing of Abu ‘Afak by Salem Ibn ‘Umair at the Prophet’s command.
In brief, we have no commitment to accept such a baseless story - according to scientific criteria of reeports’ criticism - which strangely appeared in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Higra.
That is unless you can give me the isnad?
Asma
"The charge is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) had ordered the killing of 'Asma' when she insulted him with her poetry, and the implications are that he (peace be upon him) "stiffles" criticism by murdering his opponents. As it is usually the case where the history of Islam and the character of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is concerned, it is left to the Muslims to throw some light on authenticity of the story in which this incident is reported by the sources and educate the missionaries in matters which they have no clue about.
The story of the killing of 'Asma' bint Marwan is mentioned by Ibn Sa'd in "Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir"[1] and by the author of "Kinz-ul-'Ummal" under number 44131 who attributes it to Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adiyy and Ibn 'Asaker. What is interesting is that Ibn 'Adiyy mentions it in his book "Al-Kamel" on the authority of Ja'far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu'abi on authority of Ibn 'Abbas, and added that
...this isnad (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.[2]
It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in "Al-'Ilal"[3] and is listed among other flawed reports.
So according to its isnad, the report is forged - because one of its reporters is accused of fabricating hadith. Hence, such a story is better put in trash can. "
Kab al-Ashraf
"Kab was openly hostile to Islam. He lampooned the Prophet, besmirched in verse the reputation of Muslim women, and incited the tribes in and around Madinah against the Prophet and Islam. He was particularly distressed when he heard the news of the Muslim victory at Badr. When he saw the returning army with the Quraysh prisoners of war, he was bitter and furious. He took it upon himself then to make the long journey to Makkah to express his grief and to incite the Quraysh to take further revenge. He also went to other areas, from tribe to tribe, urging people to take up arms against the Prophet.
Kab had become a real danger to the state of peace and mutual trust which the Prophet was struggling to achieve in Madinah.
Kab returned to Madinah and continued his verbal attacks on the Prophet and his abuse of Muslim women
He refused, after warnings from the Prophet, to stop his dirty campaign and sinister intrigues. He was bent on fomenting a revolt against the Prophet and the Muslims in Madinah. By all these actions, Kab had openly declared war against the Prophet. He was dangerous and a public enemy to the nascent Muslim state."
From here
Have to go to sleep now...zzzzzzzz
G
Gary
Guest
The murder of Abu Afak
The murder of Abu Afak
Background
After Muhammad arrived in Medina around 622 AD, a number of local people began to dislike him. Many of them were Jews, some were Pagan Arabs. One by one, Muhammad's critics were silenced; some became Muslims, some were murdered, others were driven out of Medina. This article deals with Muhammad's request to have his men murder a Jewish man named Abu Afak. Abu Afak was 120 years old. What was Afak's crime? He had urged his fellow Medinans to doubt Muhammad.
Islamic sources
(1) FROM THE SIRAT RASUL ALLAH (THE LIFE OF THE PROPHET OF GOD), BY IBN ISHAQ (1), page 675: SALIM B. UMAYR'S EXPEDITION TO KILL ABU AFAK
Abu Afak was one of the B. Amr b. Auf of the B. Ubayda clan. He showed his disaffection when the apostle killed al-Harith b. Suwayd b. Samit and said:
"Then occurred the "sariyyah" [raid] of Salim Ibn Umayr al-Amri against Abu Afak, the Jew, in [the month of] Shawwal in the beginning of the twentieth month from the hijrah [immigration from Mecca to Medina in 622 AD], of the Apostle of Allah. Abu Afak, was from Banu Amr Ibn Awf, and was an old man who had attained the age of one hundred and twenty years. He was a Jew, and used to instigate the people against the Apostle of Allah, and composed (satirical) verses [about Muhammad].
Salim Ibn Umayr who was one of the great weepers and who had participated in Badr, said, "I take a vow that I shall either kill Abu Afak or die before him. He waited for an opportunity until a hot night came, and Abu Afak slept in an open place. Salim Ibn Umayr knew it, so he placed the sword on his liver and pressed it till it reached his bed. The enemy of Allah screamed and the people who were his followers, rushed to him, took him to his house and interred him.
(3) FROM ALI DASHTI'S (A CONTEMPORARY MUSLIM SCHOLAR ON ISLAM) "23 YEARS: A STUDY OF THE PROPHETIC CAREER OF MOHAMMAD", (3) page 100:
"Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he had lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated."
And prior to listing all of the assassinations Muhammad had ordered, Ali Dashti writes on page 97:
"Thus Islam was gradually transformed from a purely spiritual mission into a militant and punitive organization whose progress depended on booty from raids and revenue from the zakat tax."
:o :o :o
Conclusion
In order to achieve his carnal desires, Muhammad had people murdered in cold blood. One was a 120 year old man named Abu Afak. We see that Muhammad's efforts were really driven by his flesh and ego, not by God. Abu Afak was a nuisance to Muhammad no doubt, just as people on different sides of an issue disagree and upset each other. But no fair person could justify Muhammad's murder of this man.
Jesus taught to love your enemies, to pray for those that persecute you. Jesus didn't teach to go around murdering people in the night!!
REFERENCES
"The Life of Muhammad", a translation of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" (The Life of the Prophet of God) by A. Guillaume. This book is the best biography of Muhammad available. Note that Guillaume added in other references from Tabari, and other early Islamic writings.
"Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", (Book of the Major Classes), by Ibn Sa'd. Translated by Moinul Haq, published by the Pakistan Historical Society
"23 YEARS: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad", by Ali Dashti. Translated by F.R.C. Bagley.
Source: -here-
:-?
The murder of Abu Afak
Background
After Muhammad arrived in Medina around 622 AD, a number of local people began to dislike him. Many of them were Jews, some were Pagan Arabs. One by one, Muhammad's critics were silenced; some became Muslims, some were murdered, others were driven out of Medina. This article deals with Muhammad's request to have his men murder a Jewish man named Abu Afak. Abu Afak was 120 years old. What was Afak's crime? He had urged his fellow Medinans to doubt Muhammad.
Islamic sources
(1) FROM THE SIRAT RASUL ALLAH (THE LIFE OF THE PROPHET OF GOD), BY IBN ISHAQ (1), page 675: SALIM B. UMAYR'S EXPEDITION TO KILL ABU AFAK
Abu Afak was one of the B. Amr b. Auf of the B. Ubayda clan. He showed his disaffection when the apostle killed al-Harith b. Suwayd b. Samit and said:
- "Long have I lived but never have I seen
An assembly or collection of people
More faithful to their undertaking
And their allies when called upon
Than the sons of Qayla when they assembled,
Men who overthrew mountains and never submitted,
A rider who came to them split them in two (saying)
"Permitted", "Forbidden", of all sorts of things.
Had you believed in glory or kingship
You would have followed Tubba
- You gave the lie to God's religion and the man Ahmad!
By him who was your father, evil is the son he produced!
A "hanif" gave you a thrust in the night saying
"Take that Abu Afak in spite of your age!"
Though I knew whether it was man or jinn
Who slew you in the dead of night (I would say naught).
"Then occurred the "sariyyah" [raid] of Salim Ibn Umayr al-Amri against Abu Afak, the Jew, in [the month of] Shawwal in the beginning of the twentieth month from the hijrah [immigration from Mecca to Medina in 622 AD], of the Apostle of Allah. Abu Afak, was from Banu Amr Ibn Awf, and was an old man who had attained the age of one hundred and twenty years. He was a Jew, and used to instigate the people against the Apostle of Allah, and composed (satirical) verses [about Muhammad].
Salim Ibn Umayr who was one of the great weepers and who had participated in Badr, said, "I take a vow that I shall either kill Abu Afak or die before him. He waited for an opportunity until a hot night came, and Abu Afak slept in an open place. Salim Ibn Umayr knew it, so he placed the sword on his liver and pressed it till it reached his bed. The enemy of Allah screamed and the people who were his followers, rushed to him, took him to his house and interred him.
(3) FROM ALI DASHTI'S (A CONTEMPORARY MUSLIM SCHOLAR ON ISLAM) "23 YEARS: A STUDY OF THE PROPHETIC CAREER OF MOHAMMAD", (3) page 100:
"Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he had lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated."
And prior to listing all of the assassinations Muhammad had ordered, Ali Dashti writes on page 97:
"Thus Islam was gradually transformed from a purely spiritual mission into a militant and punitive organization whose progress depended on booty from raids and revenue from the zakat tax."
:o :o :o
Conclusion
In order to achieve his carnal desires, Muhammad had people murdered in cold blood. One was a 120 year old man named Abu Afak. We see that Muhammad's efforts were really driven by his flesh and ego, not by God. Abu Afak was a nuisance to Muhammad no doubt, just as people on different sides of an issue disagree and upset each other. But no fair person could justify Muhammad's murder of this man.
Jesus taught to love your enemies, to pray for those that persecute you. Jesus didn't teach to go around murdering people in the night!!
REFERENCES
"The Life of Muhammad", a translation of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" (The Life of the Prophet of God) by A. Guillaume. This book is the best biography of Muhammad available. Note that Guillaume added in other references from Tabari, and other early Islamic writings.
"Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", (Book of the Major Classes), by Ibn Sa'd. Translated by Moinul Haq, published by the Pakistan Historical Society
"23 YEARS: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad", by Ali Dashti. Translated by F.R.C. Bagley.
Source: -here-
:-?
G
Gary
Guest
The murder of Asma Bint Marwan
The murder of Asma Bint Marwan
Background
After Muhammad came to Yathrib he began to grow in power. However, a number of people, both Jew and Arab, opposed him. Muhammad began to silence his opposition by various means. One of these means was to have them murdered.
Muhammad did have a number of enemies and critics, some were dangerous, others were ordinary people who lived in the area and thought nil of Muhammad. Unfortunately for them, they spoke their minds.
One by one, they were silenced. Through treaties, intrigue, or outright terror, Muhammad gained power in Medina. Eventually, he became the area’s master. He knew his followers loved him, and would die for him. They were at his disposal and at times used them to do his bidding.
Islamic sources
(1) FROM THE SIRAT RASUL ALLAH, by Ibn Ishaq (A. Guilaume's translation "The Life of Muhammad") page 675, 676. "UMAYR B. ADIYY'S JOURNEY TO KILL ASMA D. MARWAN
"She was of B. Umayyya b. Zayd. When Abu Afak had been killed she displayed disaffection. Abdullah b. al-Harith b. Al-Fudayl from his father said that she was married to a man of B. Khatma called Yazid b. Zayd. Blaming Islam and its followers she said:
Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [girl] Marwan. She had five sons, and when Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting." That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was Umayr b. Adiy who was called the "Reader", and Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam."
(2) FROM IBN SA'D'S "KITAB AL-TABAQAT AL-KABIR", translated by S. Moinul Haq, volume 2, page 31. "SARIYYAH OF UMAYR IBN ADI"
Then (occurred) the sariyyah of Umayr ibn adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against Asma Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. Asma was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).
Corroborating writings
In "23 Years; A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad", by Ali Dashti, (Mazda Press, 1994), Dashti also references the murders of Abu Afak and Asma b. Marwan. He wrote (page 100):
"Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. 'Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated."
:o :o :o
Source: -here-
Conclusion
This event reflects upon the man who started Islam: Islam is built upon Muhammad's words and deeds. We see here that Muhammad had a woman brutally murdered. She was killed because she spoke out against him, and became more of a nuisance, not a legitimate threat. Further, Muhammad had no legal right to kill her. He took the situation into his own hands and had her murdered. Muhammad felt that this murder was helping Allah; he felt no guilt, or sense of repentance.
Jesus condemned those who murdered ...."Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood" Revelation 22:15. Muhammad falls into that category. Surely, this man Muhammad was not a real prophet of God.
:-?
The murder of Asma Bint Marwan
Background
After Muhammad came to Yathrib he began to grow in power. However, a number of people, both Jew and Arab, opposed him. Muhammad began to silence his opposition by various means. One of these means was to have them murdered.
Muhammad did have a number of enemies and critics, some were dangerous, others were ordinary people who lived in the area and thought nil of Muhammad. Unfortunately for them, they spoke their minds.
One by one, they were silenced. Through treaties, intrigue, or outright terror, Muhammad gained power in Medina. Eventually, he became the area’s master. He knew his followers loved him, and would die for him. They were at his disposal and at times used them to do his bidding.
Islamic sources
(1) FROM THE SIRAT RASUL ALLAH, by Ibn Ishaq (A. Guilaume's translation "The Life of Muhammad") page 675, 676. "UMAYR B. ADIYY'S JOURNEY TO KILL ASMA D. MARWAN
"She was of B. Umayyya b. Zayd. When Abu Afak had been killed she displayed disaffection. Abdullah b. al-Harith b. Al-Fudayl from his father said that she was married to a man of B. Khatma called Yazid b. Zayd. Blaming Islam and its followers she said:
- "I despise B. Malik and al-Nabit
and Auf and B. al-Khazraj.
You obey a stranger who is none of yours,
One not of Murad or Madhhij.
Do you expect good from him after the killing of your chiefs
Like a hungry man waiting for a cook's broth?
Is there no man of pride who would attack him by surprise
And cut off the hopes of those who expect aught from him?"
- "Banu Wa'il and B. Waqif and Khatma
Are inferior to B. al-Khazrahj.
When she called for folly woe to her in her weeping,
For death is coming.
She stirred up a man of glorious origin,
Noble in his going out and in his coming in.
Before midnight he dyed her in her blood
And incurred no guilt thereby."
Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [girl] Marwan. She had five sons, and when Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting." That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was Umayr b. Adiy who was called the "Reader", and Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam."
(2) FROM IBN SA'D'S "KITAB AL-TABAQAT AL-KABIR", translated by S. Moinul Haq, volume 2, page 31. "SARIYYAH OF UMAYR IBN ADI"
Then (occurred) the sariyyah of Umayr ibn adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against Asma Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. Asma was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).
Corroborating writings
In "23 Years; A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad", by Ali Dashti, (Mazda Press, 1994), Dashti also references the murders of Abu Afak and Asma b. Marwan. He wrote (page 100):
"Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. 'Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated."
:o :o :o
Source: -here-
Conclusion
This event reflects upon the man who started Islam: Islam is built upon Muhammad's words and deeds. We see here that Muhammad had a woman brutally murdered. She was killed because she spoke out against him, and became more of a nuisance, not a legitimate threat. Further, Muhammad had no legal right to kill her. He took the situation into his own hands and had her murdered. Muhammad felt that this murder was helping Allah; he felt no guilt, or sense of repentance.
Jesus condemned those who murdered ...."Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood" Revelation 22:15. Muhammad falls into that category. Surely, this man Muhammad was not a real prophet of God.
:-?
G
Gary
Guest
More later...
More later.... reading all this always makes me feel sick.
More later.... reading all this always makes me feel sick.
B
Bilal
Guest
Since when did you have the authority to give text authenticity?
Read again, since you obviously didnt do so the first time round.
"The charge is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) had ordered the killing of 'Asma' when she insulted him with her poetry, and the implications are that he (peace be upon him) "stiffles" criticism by murdering his opponents. As it is usually the case where the history of Islam and the character of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is concerned, it is left to the Muslims to throw some light on authenticity of the story in which this incident is reported by the sources and educate the missionaries in matters which they have no clue about.
The story of the killing of 'Asma' bint Marwan is mentioned by Ibn Sa'd in "Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir"[1] and by the author of "Kinz-ul-'Ummal" under number 44131 who attributes it to Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adiyy and Ibn 'Asaker. What is interesting is that Ibn 'Adiyy mentions it in his book "Al-Kamel" on the authority of Ja'far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu'abi on authority of Ibn 'Abbas, and added that
...this isnad (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.[2]
It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in "Al-'Ilal"[3] and is listed among other flawed reports.
So according to its isnad, the report is forged - because one of its reporters is accused of fabricating hadith. Hence, such a story is better put in trash can. "
Read again, since you obviously didnt do so the first time round.
"The charge is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) had ordered the killing of 'Asma' when she insulted him with her poetry, and the implications are that he (peace be upon him) "stiffles" criticism by murdering his opponents. As it is usually the case where the history of Islam and the character of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is concerned, it is left to the Muslims to throw some light on authenticity of the story in which this incident is reported by the sources and educate the missionaries in matters which they have no clue about.
The story of the killing of 'Asma' bint Marwan is mentioned by Ibn Sa'd in "Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir"[1] and by the author of "Kinz-ul-'Ummal" under number 44131 who attributes it to Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adiyy and Ibn 'Asaker. What is interesting is that Ibn 'Adiyy mentions it in his book "Al-Kamel" on the authority of Ja'far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu'abi on authority of Ibn 'Abbas, and added that
...this isnad (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.[2]
It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in "Al-'Ilal"[3] and is listed among other flawed reports.
So according to its isnad, the report is forged - because one of its reporters is accused of fabricating hadith. Hence, such a story is better put in trash can. "
G
Gary
Guest
Who would you trust.... not a muslim!
So the "Sahih" (authentic) Hadith are NOT authentic after all.... and we have your own historians and writers Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Sa'd now being accused of using fabricated material.
:o
So the "Sahih" (authentic) Hadith are NOT authentic after all.... and we have your own historians and writers Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Sa'd now being accused of using fabricated material.
- Which Muslim CAN you trust?
- Which Muslim can you trust to tell the truth?
:o
D
DivineNames
Guest
Re: Exposing the Muslims and Muhammad's evil actions
If Gary accepts unconditional election, then it is very difficult to see that Jesus "lived that". He didn't live a life of "love" at all. Gary's argument that Jesus is "better than" Muhammad, or whatever, is smashed to bits.
Are you not able to respond to this Gary?
Gary said:
If Gary accepts unconditional election, then it is very difficult to see that Jesus "lived that". He didn't live a life of "love" at all. Gary's argument that Jesus is "better than" Muhammad, or whatever, is smashed to bits.
Are you not able to respond to this Gary?
G
Gary
Guest
Now onto the big fish, deception and murder of Kab al-Ashraf
Now onto the big fish... more deception and murder, Muhammad's trademarks.
Kab al-Ashraf takes a bit more work, but it is worth it.
Ready?
:D
Now onto the big fish... more deception and murder, Muhammad's trademarks.
Kab al-Ashraf takes a bit more work, but it is worth it.
Ready?
:D
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
Unconditional Election
The Calvinist doctrine of predestination, is the religious doctrine of "double predestination", particular to Calvinism. The term double predestination is typically used in a disparaging way to refer to the belief that God has appointed the eternal destiny, not only of the "Elect" (those destined for salvation and Heaven), but also of those who are elected to damnation and Hell . ...
Good call Divine Names!
The Calvinist doctrine of predestination, is the religious doctrine of "double predestination", particular to Calvinism. The term double predestination is typically used in a disparaging way to refer to the belief that God has appointed the eternal destiny, not only of the "Elect" (those destined for salvation and Heaven), but also of those who are elected to damnation and Hell . ...
Good call Divine Names!
D
DivineNames
Guest
Re: Who would you trust.... not a muslim!
:roll:
Interesting that you ask a question like that. Are you not being something of a hypocrite? You have shown yourself to be a liar in these forums. I hope you don't think it is OK to lie for Jesus...
Gary said:
:roll:
Interesting that you ask a question like that. Are you not being something of a hypocrite? You have shown yourself to be a liar in these forums. I hope you don't think it is OK to lie for Jesus...
Y
YESHUA
Guest
Soma-Sight said:Dogs dont get into Heaven either from the Christian standpoint.
:D
In fact, dogs were never allowed near Holy Grounds or in Temples.
Jews dont keep dogs.
Yes Jews keep dogs and that's a fact that Jews keep dogs unless you only count the Orthodox as Jews? Question
As a child growing up in Tel Aviv, I don't believe I ever saw an Orthodox Jew (the ones with streimels, peiyes, and a Prince Albert coat) walking a dog. Is there some sort of religious reason for an aversion to dogs?
Answer
The Talmud does say that it is forbidden to keep a pet that will scare other people, and specifically mentions a barking dog. This is but one example of the Torah's sensitivity to other's feelings.
With blessings from Jerusalem,
Rabbi Shraga Simmons
Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
There is no question that when Jewish and Christian writers refer to someone or to a group of people as a "dog" or "dogs" they are being derogatory. It is generally known that Jews regarded dogs as "unclean" animals, despised because of their public habits of "mixed" copulation, urination, and defecation. As expected, dogs were banned from many sacred sites. At Qumran, "one must not let dogs enter the holy camp, since they may eat some of the bones of the sanctuary while the flesh is still on them" (4Q394.58-59). Such a ban on dogs from sacred sites was also practiced among the Greeks, as Plutarch illustrates: "Some say a dog cannot enter the Athenian acropolis or the island of Delos because of its open mating" (QUAESTIONES ROMANAE 111).
So the "superstition" of Muhhamad about Angels not visiting one with a "dog" around can be traced back to the Jews and early Christians!
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... _111734474