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Bible Study History of the Christian Church

GodsGrace

GodsGrace

CF Ambassador
I find that there is much misunderstanding about the Christian church.

Some of this misunderstanding comes from the conflict between Catholicism and Protestantism...
However, history is history and must be accepted by all of us.

So what is the history of the Christian church?
Is it the same for all denominations?
How does it go all the way back to the Apostles?

This is not to be a debate....there is only one history of anything.
Some aspects can be discussed, but in a civil and calm way.

This is NOT a thread about Catholicism vs. Protestantism.

It will go where it goes,,,but a first question could be:
Who are the Early Chruch Fathers? (ECF)

Do we at least agree that we have:
The Apostles
The Apostolic Fathers
The Early Church Fathers

Or do some of us believe there are no ECF's at all?
 
wondering said:
I find that there is much misunderstanding about the Christian church.

Some of this misunderstanding comes from the conflict between Catholicism and Protestantism...
However, history is history and must be accepted by all of us.

So what is the history of the Christian church?
Is it the same for all denominations?
How does it go all the way back to the Apostles?

This is not to be a debate....there is only one history of anything.
Some aspects can be discussed, but in a civil and calm way.

This is NOT a thread about Catholicism vs. Protestantism.

It will go where it goes,,,but a first question could be:
Who are the Early Church Fathers? (ECF)

Do we at least agree that we have:
The Apostles
The Apostolic Fathers
The Early Church Fathers

Or do some of us believe there are no ECF's at all?
Click to expand...
i agree that there were those ancient people who we have called apostles (as per scripture)
- the apostolic fathers who knew the apostles - the early church fathers who didn't know the apostles

history is written and rewritten selectively - i know history written by romans jews greek christians is different - this creates a lot of room for disagreement - the writings by the apostolic fathers and early church fathers has been translated and possibly re-written - imo it is very informative but also possibly fallible in ways that we will have a hard time to determine

i am interested in hearing what it is claimed they have written -

i read the didache and saw some things that were as unbiblical as some of the things in the talmud

i wonder how much of the early church history is likewise unbiblical/in error - just as many people in the bible were in error as scripture records/reports their error
 
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Truthfrees said:
i agree that there were those ancient people who we have called apostles (as per scripture)
- the apostolic fathers who knew the apostles - the early church fathers who didn't know the apostles

history is written and rewritten selectively - i know history written by romans jews greek christians is different - this creates a lot of room for disagreement - the writings by the apostolic fathers and early church fathers has been translated and possibly re-written - imo it is very informative but also possibly fallible in ways that we will have a hard time to determine

i am interested in hearing what it is claimed they have written -

i read the didache and saw some things that were as unbiblical as some of the things in the talmud

i wonder how much of the early church history is likewise unbiblical/in error - just as many people in the bible were in error as scripture records/reports their error
Click to expand...
I'm going to post the Didache and maybe we could go through it. This would be an interesting start.

It's believed by most theologians and biblical scholars that the Didache was put together in about 90 AD,,,at a time when John the Apostle was still alive....

John the Apostle was banished to Patmos but died in Ephesus, todays Turkey.

John is considered to have been exiled to Patmos, during the persecutions under Emperor Domitian. Revelation 1:9 says that the author wrote the book on Patmos: “I, John, both your brother and companion in tribulation... was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Adela Yarbro Collins, a biblical scholar at Yale Divinity School, writes:

Early tradition says that John was banished to Patmos by the Roman authorities. This tradition is credible because banishment was a common punishment used during the Imperial period for a number of offenses. Among such offenses were the practices of magic and astrology. Prophecy was viewed by the Romans as belonging to the same category, whether Pagan, Jewish, or Christian. Prophecy with political implications, like that expressed by John in the book of Revelation, would have been perceived as a threat to Roman political power and order. Three of the islands in the Sporadeswere places where political offenders were banished. (Pliny Natural History 4.69-70; Tacitus Annals 4.30)[35]​
It is traditionally believed that John was the youngest of the apostles and survived them. He is said to have lived to an old age, dying at Ephesus sometime after AD 98.[48]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Apostle
 
Here is the Didache...
What about it does anyone believe is unbiblical?
I chose this version because it's the easiest to read...

The Didache (/ˈdɪdəkeɪ, -ki/; Greek: Διδαχή,, translit. translit. Didakhé, lit., lit. 'Teaching'),[1] also known asThe Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, is a brief anonymous early Christian treatise, dated by most modern scholars to the first century.[2] The first line of this treatise is "The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles (or Nations) by the twelve apostles".[a] The text, parts of which constitute the oldest extant written catechism, has three main sections dealing with Christian ethics, rituals such as baptism and Eucharist, and Church organization. The opening chapters describe the virtuous Way of Life and the wicked Way of Death.[3] The Lord's Prayer is included in full.[3] Baptism is by immersion, or by affusionif immersion is not practical.[3] Fasting is ordered for Wednesdays and Fridays.[3] Two primitive Eucharistic prayers are given.[3] Church organization was at an early stage of development.[3] Itinerant apostles and prophets are important, serving as "chief priests" and possibly celebrating the Eucharist.[3] Meanwhile, local bishops and deacons also have authority and seem to be taking the place of the itinerant ministry.[3]

The Didache is considered the first example of the genre of Church Orders.[3]The Didache reveals how Jewish Christians saw themselves and how they adapted their practice for Gentile Christians.[4] The Didache is similar in several ways to the Gospel of Matthew, perhaps because both texts originated in similar communities.[5] The opening chapters, which also appear in other early Christian texts, are likely derived from an earlier Jewish source.[3]

The Didache is considered part of the group of second-generation Christian writings known as the Apostolic Fathers. The work was considered by some Church Fathers to be a part of the New Testament,[6][7][8] while being rejected by others as spurious or non-canonical,[9][10][11] In the end, it was not accepted into the New Testament canon. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church "broader canon" includes the Didascalia, a work which draws on the Didache.

cont'd

 
part 1 of 2

THE DIDACHE (didakay)
part 1 of 2


I

1. There are two Ways, one of Life and one of Death, and there is a great difference between the two Ways.
2. The way of life is this:" First, you shalt love the God who made thee, secondly, thy neighbor as thyself; and whatsoever thou wouldst not have done to thyself, do not thou to another."
3. Now, the teaching of these words is this: "Bless those that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those that persecute you. For what credit is it to you if you love those that love you? Do not even the heathen do the same?" But, for your part, "love those that hate you," and you will have no enemy.
4. "Abstain from carnal" and bodily "lusts." "If any man smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other cheek also," and thou wilt be perfect. "If any man impress thee to go with him one mile, go with him two. If any man take thy coat, give him thy shirt also. If any man will take from thee what is thine, refuse it not," not even if thou canst.
5. Give to everyone that asks thee, and do not refuse, for the Father's will is that we give to all from the gifts we have received. Blessed is he that gives according to the mandate; for he is innocent; but he who receives it without need shall be tried as to why he took and for what, and being in prison he shall be examined as to his deeds, and "he shall not come out thence until he pay the last farthing."
6. But concerning this it was also said, "Let thine alms sweat into thine hands until thou knowest to whom thou art giving."


II


1. But the second commandment of the teaching is this:
2. "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods";
3. Thou shalt not commit perjury, "thou shall not bear false witness"; thou shalt not speak evil; thou shalt not bear malice.
4. Thou shalt not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is the snare of death.
5. Thy speech shall not be false nor vain, but completed in action.
6. Thou shalt not be covetous nor extortionate, nor a hypocrite, nor malignant, nor proud, thou shalt make no evil plan against thy neighbor.
7. Thou shalt hate no man; but some thou shalt reprove, and for some shalt thou pray, and some thou shalt love more then thine own life.


III


1. My child, flee from every evil man and from all like him.
2. Be not proud, for pride leads to murder, nor jealous, nor contentious, nor passionate, for from all these murders are engendered.
3. My child, be not lustful, for lust leads to fornication, nor a speaker of base words, nor a lifter up of the eyes, for from all these is adultery engendered.
4. My child, regard not omens, for this leads to idolatry; neither be an enchanter, nor an astrologer, nor a magician, neither wish to see these things, for from them all is idolatry engendered.
5. My child, be not a liar, for lying leads to theft, nor a lover of money, nor vain-glorious, for from all these things are thefts engendered.
6. My child, be not a grumbler, for this leads to blasphemy, nor stubborn, nor a thinker of evil, for from all these are blasphemies engendered.
7. But be thou "meek, for the meek shall inherit the earth;"
8. Be thou long-suffering, and merciful and guileless, and quiet, and good, and ever fearing the words which thou hast heard.
9. Thou shalt not exalt thyself, nor let thy soul be presumptuous. Thy soul shall not consort with the lofty, but thou shalt walk with righteous and humble men.
10. Receive the accidents that befall to thee as good, knowing that nothing happens without God.


IV


1. My child, thou shalt remember, day and night, him who speaks the word of God to thee, and thou shalt honor him as the Lord, for where the Lord's nature is spoken of, there is he present.
2. And thou shalt seek daily the presence of the saints, that thou mayest find rest in their words.
3. Thou shalt not desire a schism, but shalt reconcile those that strive. Thou shalt give righteous judgement; thou shalt favor no mans person in reproving transgression.
4. Thou shalt not be of two minds whether it shall be or not.
5. Be not one who stretches out his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving.
6. Of whatsoever thou hast gained by thy hands thou shalt give a ransom for thy sins.
7. Thou shalt not hesitate to give, nor shalt thou grumble when thou givest, for thou shalt know who is the good Paymaster of the reward.
8. Thou shalt not turn away the needy, but shalt share everything with thy brother, and shalt not say it is thine own, for if you are sharers in the imperishable, how much more in the things which perish?
9. Thou shalt not withhold thine hand from thy son or from thy daughter, but thou shalt teach them the fear of God from their youth up.
10. Thou shalt not command in thy bitterness thy slave or thine handmaid, who hope in the same God, lest they cease to fear the God who is over you both; for he comes not to call men with respect of persons, but those whom the Spirit has prepared.
11. But do you who are slaves be subject to your master, as to God's representative, in reverence and fear.
12. Thou shalt hate all hypocrisy, and everything that is not pleasing to the Lord.
13. Thou shalt not forsake the commandments of the Lord, but thou shalt keep what thou didst receive, "Adding nothing to it and taking nothing away."
14. In the congregation thou shalt confess thy transgressions, and thou shalt not betake thyself to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life.


V


1. But the Way of Death is this: First of all, it is wicked and full of cursing, murders, adulteries, lusts, fornications, thefts, idolatries, witchcrafts, charms, robberies, false witness, hypocrisies, a double heart, fraud, pride, malice, stubbornness, covetousness, foul speech, jealousy, impudence, haughtiness, boastfulness.
2. Persecutors of the good, haters of truth, lovers of lies, knowing not the reward of righteousness, not cleaving to the good nor to righteous judgment, spending wakeful nights not for good but for wickedness, from whom meekness and patience is far, lovers of vanity, following after reward, unmerciful to the poor, not working for him who is oppressed with toil, without knowledge of him who made them, murderers of children, corrupters of God's creatures, turning away the needy, oppressing the distressed, advocates of the rich, unjust judges of the poor, altogether sinful; may ye be delivered, my children, from all these.


VI


1. See "that no one make thee to err" from this Way of the teaching, for he teaches thee without God.
2. For if thou canst bear the whole yoke of the Lord, thou wilt be perfect, but if thou canst not, do what thou canst.
3. And concerning food, bear what thou canst, but keep strictly from that which is offered to idols, for it is the worship of dead gods.

VII


1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.
 
part 2 of 2


VIII


1. Let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays, but do you fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.
2. And do not pray as the hypocrites, but as the Lord commanded in his Gospel, pray thus: "Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, as in Heaven so also upon earth; give us today our daily bread, and forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors, and lead us not into trial, but deliver us from the Evil One, for thine is the power and the glory for ever."
3. Pray thus three times a day.


IX


1. And concerning the Eucharist, hold Eucharist thus:
2. First concerning the Cup, "We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the Holy Vine of David thy child, which, thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy Child; to thee be glory for ever."
3. And concerning the broken Bread: "We give thee thanks, our Father, for the life and knowledge which thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy Child. To thee be glory for ever.
4. As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains, but was brought together and became one, so let thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into thy kingdom, for thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever."
5. But let none eat or drink of your Eucharist except those who have been baptised in the Lord's Name. For concerning this also did the Lord say, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs."


X


1. But after you are satisfied with food, thus give thanks:
2. "We give thanks to thee, O Holy Father, for thy Holy Name which thou didst make to tabernacle in out hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy Child. To thee be glory for ever.
3. Thou, Lord Almighty, didst create all things for thy Name's sake, and didst give food and drink to men for their enjoyment, that they might give thanks to thee, but us hast thou blessed with spiritual food and drink and eternal light through thy Child.
4. Above all we give thanks to thee for that thou art mighty. To thee be glory for ever.
5. Remember, Lord, thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in thy love, and gather it together in its holiness from the four winds to thy kingdom which thou hast prepared for it. For thine is the power and the glory for ever.
6. Let grace come and let this world pass away. Hosannah to the God of David. If any man be holy, let him come! if any man be not, let him repent: Maranatha ("Our Lord! Come!"), Amen."
7. But suffer the prophets to hold Eucharist as they will.


XI


1. Whosoever then comes and teaches you all these things aforesaid, receive him.
2. But if the teacher himself be perverted and teach another doctrine to destroy these things, do not listen to him, but if his teaching be for the increase of righteousness and knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord.
3. And concerning the Apostles and Prophets, act thus according to the ordinance of the Gospel.
4. Let every Apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord,
5. But let him not stay more than one day, or if need be a second as well; but if he stay three days, he is a false prophet.
6. And when an Apostle goes forth let him accept nothing but bread till he reach his night's lodging; but if he ask for money, he is a false prophet.
7. Do not test or examine any prophet who is speaking in a spirit, "for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven."
8. But not everyone who speaks in a spirit is a prophet, except he have the behaviour of the Lord. From his behaviour, then, the false prophet and the true prophet shall be known.
9. And no prophet who orders a meal in a spirit shall eat of it: otherwise he is a false prophet.
10. And every prophet who teaches truth, if he do not what he teaches, is a false prophet.
11. But no prophet who has been tried and is genuine, though he enact a worldly mystery of the Church, if he teach not others to do what he does himself, shall be judged by you: for he has his judgment with God, for so also did the prophets of old.
12. But whosoever shall say in a spirit "Give me money, or something else," you shall not listen to him; but if he tell you to give on behalf of others in want, let none judge him.


XII


1. Let everyone who "comes in the Name of the Lord" be received; but when you have tested him you shall know him, for you shall have understanding of true and false.
2. If he who comes is a traveller, help him as much as you can, but he shall not remain with you more than two days, or, if need be, three.
3. And if he wishes to settle among you and has a craft, let him work for his bread.
4. But if he has no craft provide for him according to your understanding, so that no man shall live among you in idleness because he is a Christian.
5. But if he will not do so, he is making traffic of Christ; beware of such.


XIII


1. But every true prophet who wishes to settle among you is "worthy of his food."
2. Likewise a true teacher is himself worthy, like the workman, of his food.
3. Therefore thou shalt take the firstfruit of the produce of the winepress and of the threshingfloor and of oxen and sheep, and shalt give them as the firstfruits to the prophets, for they are your high priests.
4. But if you have not a prophet, give to the poor.
5. If thou makest bread, take the firstfruits, and give it according to the commandment.
6. Likewise when thou openest a jar of wine or oil, give the firstfruits to the prophets.
7. Of money also and clothes, and of all your possessions, take the firstfruits, as it seem best to you, and give according to the commandment.


XIV


1. On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;
2. But let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled.
3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen."


XV


1. Appoint therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, meek men, and not lovers of money, and truthful and approved, for they also minister to you the ministry of the prophets and teachers.
2. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honourable men together with the prophets and teachers.
3. And reprove one another not in wrath but in peace as you find in the Gospel, and let none speak with any who has done wrong to his neighbour, nor let him hear a word from you until he repents.
4. But your prayers and alms and all your acts perform as ye find in the Gospel of our Lord.


XVI


1. "Watch" over your life "let your lamps" be not quenched "and your loins" be not ungirded, but be "ready," for ye know not "the hour in which our Lord cometh."
2. But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time;
3. For in the last days the false prophets and the corruptors shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate;
4. For as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began.
5. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and "many shall be offended" and be lost, but "they who endure" in their faith "shall be saved" by the curse itself.
6. And "then shall appear the signs" of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead:
7. But not of all the dead, but as it was said, "The Lord shall come and all his saints with him."
8. Then shall the world "see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven."
 
One question that came to me. In the part about baptism, I do not see how it would apply to infants. It says, "Having first rehearsed all these things," which to me sounds like something an infant couldn't possibly do. With this said, how then did the early Church begin to allow infant baptism?

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.
 
WIP said:
One question that came to me. In the part about baptism, I do not see how it would apply to infants. It says, "Having first rehearsed all these things," which to me sounds like something an infant couldn't possibly do. With this said, how then did the early Church begin to allow infant baptism?

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.
Click to expand...
Rehearsed the procedure,,,,not teachings.
It's true that infants were baptized from the earliest of times....it was also meant as membership into this religion.

I also forgot to list my source....
I'm on a phone now,,,I'll try.

Here is the link to the Didache I used...
There is only one but translations might be different,,,,like the Bible...

http://www.thedidache.com
 
WIP said:
One question that came to me. In the part about baptism, I do not see how it would apply to infants. It says, "Having first rehearsed all these things," which to me sounds like something an infant couldn't possibly do. With this said, how then did the early Church begin to allow infant baptism?

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.
Click to expand...
I'll answer better when I'm at my computer...
Sorry.
 
Truthfrees said:
thanks for posting the didache

this didache is different than the one i read - i no longer have access to the link to the didache i read

how many didache's are there?

this one is a little harder to understand - it is more poetic and a little less plain -
Click to expand...
Please see post 10.
 
wondering said:
I'm going to post the Didache and maybe we could go through it. This would be an interesting start.

It's believed by most theologians and biblical scholars that the Didache was put together in about 90 AD,,,at a time when John the Apostle was still alive....

John the Apostle was banished to Patmos but died in Ephesus, todays Turkey.

John is considered to have been exiled to Patmos, during the persecutions under Emperor Domitian. Revelation 1:9 says that the author wrote the book on Patmos: “I, John, both your brother and companion in tribulation... was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Adela Yarbro Collins, a biblical scholar at Yale Divinity School, writes:

Early tradition says that John was banished to Patmos by the Roman authorities. This tradition is credible because banishment was a common punishment used during the Imperial period for a number of offenses. Among such offenses were the practices of magic and astrology. Prophecy was viewed by the Romans as belonging to the same category, whether Pagan, Jewish, or Christian. Prophecy with political implications, like that expressed by John in the book of Revelation, would have been perceived as a threat to Roman political power and order. Three of the islands in the Sporadeswere places where political offenders were banished. (Pliny Natural History 4.69-70; Tacitus Annals 4.30)[35]​
It is traditionally believed that John was the youngest of the apostles and survived them. He is said to have lived to an old age, dying at Ephesus sometime after AD 98.[48]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Apostle
Click to expand...


wondering,

There are a number of questions surrounding the finding of a copy of Didache, meaning 'teaching', i.e. The Teaching = Teaching of the twelve apostles.

The Didache's existence was not known until it was discovered in AD 1873 in a monastery by Philotheos Bryannios, a Greek Orthodox metropolitan bishop of Nicomedia (modern Turkey). It was published in AD 1883. This makes its dating highly speculative.

It doesn't indicate any external indicators regarding its date of writing, but does refer extensively to the Gospel of Matthew. The authors of the document are not mentioned.

Among scholars, it is estimated it was written about AD 50-70. Others consider ca. 100 is a posibility.

Other complicating factors are that the MSS were written in Koine Greek, but copies have been found in Syriac, Latin and Coptic. So, its origin is speculative

There are references to the Didache in early church historian Eusebius (ca. AD 360-345) of Caesarea., as well as some of the Church Fathers such as Athanasius, Origen, and Rufinus. (source: Ancient History Encyclopedia: Didache)

Eusebius wrote:

Among the rejected writings must be reckoned also the Acts of Paul, and the so-called Shepherd, and the Apocalypse of Peter, and in addition to these the extant epistle of Barnabas, and the so-called Teachings of the Apostles (Didache) and besides, as I said, the Apocalypse of John, if it seem proper, which some, as I said, reject, but which others class with the accepted books (Eusebius, Church History, 3.25.4)​

Didache has very interesting teaching on baptism in chapter 7 (very brief).

There is an excellent assessment of the content of Didache in William Varner's, 'The Didache's Use of the Old and New Testaments'.

Oz
 
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Truthfrees said:
thanks for posting the didache

this didache is different than the one i read - i no longer have access to the link to the didache i read

how many didache's are there?

this one is a little harder to understand - it is more poetic and a little less plain -
Click to expand...

TF,

That's like asking: How many Bibles are there? Here's a modern translation of Didache: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm.

Try comparing the KJV and Douay-Rheims with the NIV, NLT and NET. If you want a Bible understandable in today's language, choose the dynamic equivalence translations of the last 3. If you want archaic language, try Wyclif's Bible, Tyndale's Bible, Bishop's Bible, Coverdale's Bible, Geneva Bible, KJV and Douay-Rheims.

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
wondering,

There are a number of questions surrounding the finding of a copy of Didache, meaning 'teaching', i.e. The Teaching = Teaching of the twelve apostles.

The Didache's existence was not known until it was discovered in AD 1873 in a monastery by Philotheos Bryannios, a Greek Orthodox metropolitan bishop of Nicomedia (modern Turkey). It was published in AD 1883. This makes its dating highly speculative.

It doesn't indicate any external indicators regarding its date of writing, but does refer extensively to the Gospel of Matthew. The authors of the document are not mentioned.

Among scholars, it is estimated it was written about AD 50-70. Others consider ca. 100 is a posibility.

Other complicating factors are that the MSS were written in Koine Greek, but copies have been found in Syriac, Latin and Coptic. So, its origin is speculative

There are references to the Didache in early church historian Eusebius (ca. AD 360-345) of Caesarea., as well as some of the Church Fathers such as Athanasius, Origen, and Rufinus. (source: Ancient History Encyclopedia: Didache)

Eusebius wrote:

Among the rejected writings must be reckoned also the Acts of Paul, and the so-called Shepherd, and the Apocalypse of Peter, and in addition to these the extant epistle of Barnabas, and the so-called Teachings of the Apostles (Didache) and besides, as I said, the Apocalypse of John, if it seem proper, which some, as I said, reject, but which others class with the accepted books (Eusebius, Church History, 3.25.4)​

Didache has very interesting teaching on baptism in chapter 7 (very brief).

There is an excellent assessment of the content of Didache in William Varner's, 'The Didache's Use of the Old and New Testaments'.

Oz
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Hi Oz
Of course what you post is true.
This thread isn't specifically about the Didache but I'd like to go through the history of the Christian faith.

I won't debate you on this, but recently it's believed that it was probably dated closer to 90 than 120 or later. I could provide you with some scholars names tomorrow...sorry not at computer now. Can't write on this phone....
 
OzSpen said:
wondering,

There are a number of questions surrounding the finding of a copy of Didache, meaning 'teaching', i.e. The Teaching = Teaching of the twelve apostles.

The Didache's existence was not known until it was discovered in AD 1873 in a monastery by Philotheos Bryannios, a Greek Orthodox metropolitan bishop of Nicomedia (modern Turkey). It was published in AD 1883. This makes its dating highly speculative.

It doesn't indicate any external indicators regarding its date of writing, but does refer extensively to the Gospel of Matthew. The authors of the document are not mentioned.

Among scholars, it is estimated it was written about AD 50-70. Others consider ca. 100 is a posibility.

Other complicating factors are that the MSS were written in Koine Greek, but copies have been found in Syriac, Latin and Coptic. So, its origin is speculative

There are references to the Didache in early church historian Eusebius (ca. AD 360-345) of Caesarea., as well as some of the Church Fathers such as Athanasius, Origen, and Rufinus. (source: Ancient History Encyclopedia: Didache)

Eusebius wrote:

Among the rejected writings must be reckoned also the Acts of Paul, and the so-called Shepherd, and the Apocalypse of Peter, and in addition to these the extant epistle of Barnabas, and the so-called Teachings of the Apostles (Didache) and besides, as I said, the Apocalypse of John, if it seem proper, which some, as I said, reject, but which others class with the accepted books (Eusebius, Church History, 3.25.4)​

Didache has very interesting teaching on baptism in chapter 7 (very brief).

There is an excellent assessment of the content of Didache in William Varner's, 'The Didache's Use of the Old and New Testaments'.

Oz
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I went quickly through the article....
It does confirm my post no. 11.
It is not verbatim on verses, but uses them for teaching...
Exactly what it was written for.
 
wondering said:
BTW, Jesus did say to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.
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wondering,

It's true that Matt 5:48 (NIV) teaches, ‘Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect’.

How is it possible for people born into sin who are sinners to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. That sounds like an impossibility to me.
  • The KJV states, ‘Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect’’
  • The NRSV translation, ‘Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect’.
  • International Standard Version (ISV): ‘So be perfect [or mature], as your heavenly Father is perfect [or mature]’.
  • Revised English Bible (REB): ‘There must be no limit to your goodness, as your heavenly Father’s goodness knows no bounds’.
These four translations demonstrate how ‘perfect’ as an English meaning may not be the best understanding of the koine Greek for that word. Let’s seek some further information.

The problem we have is with the English meaning of ‘perfect’ that communicates the idea of complete or absolute sinlessness. Even with Jesus living in me, I’m incapable of that standard – because I have a sinful nature that God does not have.

What are the alternatives?

(1) Either God is requiring something I cannot attain (perfection) – which makes God a liar (which He is not – Heb 6:18), or

(2) In the original languages, ‘perfection’ has a meaning that is difference from our English connotation.

What is the meaning of the Greek teleios (perfection)? That should give us the clue to the meaning of Matt 5:48.

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
TF,

That's like asking: How many Bibles are there? Here's a modern translation of Didache: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm.

Try comparing the KJV and Douay-Rheims with the NIV, NLT and NET. If you want a Bible understandable in today's language, choose the dynamic equivalence translations of the last 3. If you want archaic language, try Wyclif's Bible, Tyndale's Bible, Bishop's Bible, Coverdale's Bible, Geneva Bible, KJV and Douay-Rheims.

Oz
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thanks - checking this one out

i like nkjv bible - got a didache like that? - plain language but accurate word for word mostly - thought for thought when needed

don't really like dynamic equivalence - it is interesting and thought provoking but unreliable - rather have a plain word for word translation

also don't like poetic versions - seems to me that someone is trying to be clever taking literary licence by embellishing the original plain content
 
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