Bible Study History of the Christian Church

[chessman]

That doesn't alter the fact I have never ever in a long life met one Christian who claims to be and demonstrates perfection.

What about in the resurrection?

 

[OzSpen]

What about in the resurrection?

chessman,

This is a red herring.

In the post to which you responded, I wrote, 'I have never ever in a long life ...'

I spoke of this 'long life' and not 'in the resurrection'. I urge you not to invent (through a question) what I didn't say.

Oz

 

[chessman]

This is a red herring.

Oz, I understand and agree with you about this lifetime. I simply asked you a different question. What about the next life in the resurrection? Does God have plans for our perfection in the resurrection?

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, I understand and agree with you about this lifetime. I simply asked you a different question. What about the next life in the resurrection? Does God have plans for our perfection in the resurrection?

Why don't you start a new thread that relates to this topic?

 

[chessman]

Why don't you start a new thread that relates to this topic?

Because it pertains to the history of the church.

I give thanks to my God upon my every remembrance of you, always in my every prayer for all of you, making the prayer with joy, because of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now, convinced of this same thing, that the one who began a good work in you will finish it until the day of Christ Jesus, just as it is right for me to think this about all of you, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel all of you are sharers of grace with me.​

Philippians 1:3-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 1:3-7&version=LEB

 

[chessman]

The Greek word in Matt 5:48 is not telos, but is based on that root word,

Right, it’s simply a cognate.

It is teleios [plural teleioi]. It refers to a goal and I don’t know one single word in English to convey its meaning.

Okay: (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

Do you believe that the One having begun a good work in you will complete it in all its parts, even if that occurs in the resurrection?

It doesn’t mean absolute sinlessness, just like God cannot sin, because if we go back to Matt 5:6, the disciples are blessed if they ‘hunger and thirst for righteousness’.

Which is why I asked you about it occuring in the resurrection. It says you “shall be perfect”, not that you are now perfect.

Please note that in this verse it is not in the singular but plural, so it refers to a group of believers (here the disciples) becoming mature.

Amen.

Therefore, I conclude that ‘perfect’ is not the meaning of teleios.

The following translations use “perfect”:

ASV
ESV
HCSB
KJV
LEB
NASB
NET
NKJV
NIV

 

[GodsGrace]

One question that came to me. In the part about baptism, I do not see how it would apply to infants. It says, "Having first rehearsed all these things," which to me sounds like something an infant couldn't possibly do. With this said, how then did the early Church begin to allow infant baptism?

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

Hi WIP,
Sorry this reply took so long...

I wanted to make a comment on no. 4 but I have a difficult time writing when on the phone...

Anyway, the didache, just like any other manuscript from that era, will not be perfectly pure. It started out being very simple teachings from the Apostles and those that came after them...but it's believed that some teachings may have been added later on and it's anybody's guess which manuscript was actually found...I doubt it would be the original.

Item 4 very clearly has additions to it that are not biblical...it was someone's idea that before baptism fasting should take place. If this were that important to follow, I do believe the N.T. writers would have stated it in their instructions.

My guess would be that at least 95% of the didache is "pure" and not tampered with. I'm not a scholar but have read much about it and it is an interesting document to familiarize oneself with.

 

[WIP]

Hi WIP,
Sorry this reply took so long...

I wanted to make a comment on no. 4 but I have a difficult time writing when on the phone...

Anyway, the didache, just like any other manuscript from that era, will not be perfectly pure. It started out being very simple teachings from the Apostles and those that came after them...but it's believed that some teachings may have been added later on and it's anybody's guess which manuscript was actually found...I doubt it would be the original.

Item 4 very clearly has additions to it that are not biblical...it was someone's idea that before baptism fasting should take place. If this were that important to follow, I do believe the N.T. writers would have stated it in their instructions.

My guess would be that at least 95% of the didache is "pure" and not tampered with. I'm not a scholar but have read much about it and it is an interesting document to familiarize oneself with.

This is my first exposure to the Didache so forgive my ignorance. Does the Church, adopt any portion of the Didache?

 

[GodsGrace]

This is my first exposure to the Didache so forgive my ignorance. Does the Church, adopt any portion of the Didache?

You put the Church with a capital C...that means the Body of Christ.

I think we've put 95% of it into practice...
There's some stuff chapter 7 and 8 that are superflous... Let me see if I could find it ...

 

[WIP]

You put the Church with a capital C...that means the Body of Christ.

I think we've put 95% of it into practice...
There's some stuff chapter 7 and 8 that are superflous... Let me see if I could find it ...

Yes, you understood my use of the capital C.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is my first exposure to the Didache so forgive my ignorance. Does the Church, adopt any portion of the Didache?

OK WIP, I read through it fast...
It's chapters 7 and 8 that something has been added to:

Chapter 7, item 4:
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

Chapter 8, item 1 and item 3
1. Let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays, but do you fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.

3. Pray thus three times a day.

It's commonly accepted that the above are not N.T. rules.
Chapter 8 item 3 can possibly be a leftover from Rabbinic times and how the Jews were taught to pray. OR, it could be a way to make sure Christians said their prayers...there's no way of knowing which -- scholars disagree..it all depends on which one you want to trust.

 

[GodsGrace]

But I say to you not to resist the evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.​

Matthew 5:39 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:39&version=DLNT

Jesus didn’t say anything about being perfect based on turning your cheek. It’s commentary.

There you go C,,,,hanging onto every word!!
Everything Jesus said went toward being "perfect"... He didn't actually mean that we should be perfect...it meant doing our best...it meant being complete in the Lord...it meant to be moral like our Father is moral...it meant to remember the qualities we have that are similar to God's since we're made in His image.

( I said SIMILAR to God, not LIKE God)

 

[chessman]

There you go C,,,,hanging onto every word!!

Yep, every word is important.

But he answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man will not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God.”​

Matthew 4:4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 4:4&version=LEB

He didn't actually mean that we should be perfect...it meant doing our best..

“Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Matthew 5:48 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:48&version=DLNT

Is our Heavenly Father simply doing His best or is He actually perfect?

Not that I have already received this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on if indeed I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ.​

Philippians 3:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 3:12&version=LEB

But Paul and others and you are right, we’re not yet perfect. But we most certainly “shall be”.

Oh, and we’ll be made that way by God, not ourselves.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

There are a number of questions surrounding the finding of a copy of Didache, meaning 'teaching', i.e. The Teaching = Teaching of the twelve apostles.

The Didache's existence was not known until it was discovered in AD 1873 in a monastery by Philotheos Bryannios, a Greek Orthodox metropolitan bishop of Nicomedia (modern Turkey). It was published in AD 1883. This makes its dating highly speculative.

It doesn't indicate any external indicators regarding its date of writing, but does refer extensively to the Gospel of Matthew. The authors of the document are not mentioned.

Among scholars, it is estimated it was written about AD 50-70. Others consider ca. 100 is a posibility.

Other complicating factors are that the MSS were written in Koine Greek, but copies have been found in Syriac, Latin and Coptic. So, its origin is speculative

There are references to the Didache in early church historian Eusebius (ca. AD 360-345) of Caesarea., as well as some of the Church Fathers such as Athanasius, Origen, and Rufinus. (source: Ancient History Encyclopedia: Didache)

Eusebius wrote:

Among the rejected writings must be reckoned also the Acts of Paul, and the so-called Shepherd, and the Apocalypse of Peter, and in addition to these the extant epistle of Barnabas, and the so-called Teachings of the Apostles (Didache) and besides, as I said, the Apocalypse of John, if it seem proper, which some, as I said, reject, but which others class with the accepted books (Eusebius, Church History, 3.25.4)​

Didache has very interesting teaching on baptism in chapter 7 (very brief).

There is an excellent assessment of the content of Didache in William Varner's, 'The Didache's Use of the Old and New Testaments'.

Oz

Hi Oz,

You've posted an excellent source, but much too much for me to read.

I would like to post this introduction because the answer to it is that the didache is very simple and was written by some with authority...perhaps not the Apostles themselves ... as I understand it, it is the TEACHINGS of the Apostles and thus it's called The Teachings of the Apostles by some churches.

It's plain and simple to understand, which I sometimes wish was true also of the N.T. writers; especially Paul who wrote very deep concepts which, I fear, are much misunderstood in our culture.

The Epistle of Barnabas was accepted by the ECF's so I'm surprised at what Eusebius wrote. Also because I find nothing to be unbiblical in all of the didache's chapters,,,except for a couple of items that might have been added by future writers and may not be on the original.

Copies were found in Syriac, Latin and Coptic because it was very wide-spread apparently. The church was just getting started and the letters and other writings were shared among the different church capitals which were, in fact, Alessandria, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Rome and Antioch.
(just as the epistles of the N.T. were distributed hundreds of years before they were put into our Book...the N.T.)

Thanks for contributing... I always appreciate your knowledge.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

It's true that Matt 5:48 (NIV) teaches, ‘Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect’.

How is it possible for people born into sin who are sinners to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. That sounds like an impossibility to me.

• The KJV states, ‘Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect’’
• The NRSV translation, ‘Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect’.
• International Standard Version (ISV): ‘So be perfect [or mature], as your heavenly Father is perfect [or mature]’.
• Revised English Bible (REB): ‘There must be no limit to your goodness, as your heavenly Father’s goodness knows no bounds’.

These four translations demonstrate how ‘perfect’ as an English meaning may not be the best understanding of the koine Greek for that word. Let’s seek some further information.

The problem we have is with the English meaning of ‘perfect’ that communicates the idea of complete or absolute sinlessness. Even with Jesus living in me, I’m incapable of that standard – because I have a sinful nature that God does not have.

What are the alternatives?

(1) Either God is requiring something I cannot attain (perfection) – which makes God a liar (which He is not – Heb 6:18), or

(2) In the original languages, ‘perfection’ has a meaning that is difference from our English connotation.

What is the meaning of the Greek teleios (perfection)? That should give us the clue to the meaning of Matt 5:48.

Oz

Thanks Oz.
You can also see my post no. 52 on this.
I'm just going through this thread now....

Here's what I found regarding the word perfect,,,as in Jesus using the word in Matthew 5:48:

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon


Strong's Number: 5055

Browse Lexicon​

Original WordWord Origin
teleofrom (5056)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Teleo8:57,1161
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
tel-eh'-oVerb
Definition

1. to bring to a close, to finish, to end
   1. passed, finished
2. to perform, execute, complete, fulfil, (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command etc.)
   1. with special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command
   2. with reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfil
3. to pay
   1. of tribute

"It is finished or paid" John 19:30

NAS Word Usage - Total: 28
accomplished 3, carried 1, carry 1, completed 3, finish 1, finished 11, fulfilled 2, fulfilling 1, keeps 1, pay 2, perfected 1, performed 1

 

[GodsGrace]

i like most of what is in the didache because it matches scripture

3. Now, the teaching of these words is this: "Bless those that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those that persecute you. For what credit is it to you if you love those that love you? Do not even the heathen do the same?" But, for your part, "love those that hate you," and you will have no enemy. - scripture does not say that if we love our enemies we will have no enemies - it tells us to love our enemies even though they are our enemies

5. Give to everyone that asks thee, and do not refuse, for the Father's will is that we give to all from the gifts we have received. Blessed is he that gives according to the mandate; for he is innocent; but he who receives it without need shall be tried as to why he took and for what, and being in prison he shall be examined as to his deeds, and "he shall not come out thence until he pay the last farthing."

on part 1 point 5 seems to be at odds with points 1-4 - also i can't think of a scripture that matches point 5 - points 1-4 say to love forgive turn the other cheek but then point 5 says to put in prison - presumably debtor's prison - until every last farthing is paid back - this causes me to read with caution - it appears man is inputting his own ideology into this document - either the supposed original author or someone who later copied or translated

Matthew 18:28-34 says the wicked servant who was forgiven a million dollar debt then went and threw his fellow servant in jail for a 10 dollar debt - so the king had this wicked servant thrown into prison for being so pettily unforgiving of a tiny debt until he paid the million dollars back to the last penny - so point 5 seems like a harsh misinterpretation/twist of scripture on forgiving debt

Yes TF,,,it was used for teaching, so some of man's idealogy will be found there. It's not a verbatum translation of the N.T.....

The N.T. did not exist when the above was written.
It was obtained from teachings of the Apostles.

Point 5 is actually a very good point. It's saying not to lie, not to lust after something so much that you would say you were in need just to get it. It's saying to be honest and let the poor have what is available ... it also means not to steal.

I can't reconcile it to Mathew 18:28...

Maybe someone else would like to comment...

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep, every word is important.

But he answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man will not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God.”​

Matthew 4:4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 4:4&version=LEB

“Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Matthew 5:48 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:48&version=DLNT

Is our Heavenly Father simply doing His best or is He actually perfect?

Not that I have already received this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on if indeed I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ.​

Philippians 3:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 3:12&version=LEB

But Paul and others and you are right, we’re not yet perfect. But we most certainly “shall be”.

Oh, and we’ll be made that way by God, not ourselves.

OK C,
I could live with what you wrote.
Just two points:

1. I didn't say God wasn't perfect. I do wish you'd post my entire comments. Someone reading along could think I said that.

2. Do you have anything at all to do with your salvation?

 

[chessman]

Do you have anything at all to do with your salvation?

Sure. I’m:
1. Joyfully trusting that it’s God supporting my salvation and shielding it.

You also gave me the shield of your salvation, and your right hand supported me, and your humility made me great.​

Psalm 18:35 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 18:35&version=LEB

2. Learning that it was Him who caused me to walk in my salvation.

Cause me to walk in your truth and teach me, because you are the God of my salvation. I await you all day long.​

Psalm 25:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 25:5&version=LEB

 

[GodsGrace]

I have another question.


The procedure described for baptism also first requires running water. It doesn't say the one being baptized must be submerged but it does indicate it required running water. At the time this was written, about the only available running water would likely have been a river or possibly some kind of ductwork or ditch.

Baptizing in a stagnate pool or tub was only a second option if running water was not available. And finally, pouring water over the head was a third and last option if neither of the other two were available.

In other words, baptism was not to be done the way most do it today out of convenience.



Sorry for all the questions about the section on baptism, but it seems that what the Didache taught is quite different from what even the Catholic church embraces, even though the CC claims to follow the rules as much as possible. It doesn't seem there are many churches if any that follow the Didache as written.

I don't have all these answers WIP. But here are some interesting links:

M — MODES OF BAPTISM The mode of baptism is often as hotly contested as the meaning of baptism. In the early Christian church submersion or immersion was the primary mode. If water was scarce, pouring or splashing was permitted. In the early Middle Ages, however, sprinkling became the prevalent mode for baptism.12 Those who believe that we should be baptized by sprinkling rather than submersion maintain that baptism in Scripture is often portrayed as a cleansing or washing, and therefore does not require submersion.

They point to passages such as Ezekiel 36:2513 in the Old Testament and Hebrews l0:2214 in the New Testament. Those who believe we must be submerged rather than sprinkled or splashed point to the fact that the Greek word for “to baptize” (baptizein) in classical usage means “to immerse.”15 They also appeal to passages such as Romans 6:4‐6 and Colossians 2:12 “to express the symbolism of the Sacrament.”16 Being submerged represents being buried with Christ and coming up out of the water indicates being resurrected ns a new creation in Christ.

source: https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj16f.pdf
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Baptism occupied a place of great importance in the Christian community of the 1st century, but Christian scholars disagree over whether it was to be regarded as essential to the new birth and to membership in the kingdom of God or to be regarded only as an external sign or symbol of inner regeneration. The Apostle Paul likened baptismal immersion to personal sharing in the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ (Romans 6:3–4). Although the conclusion has repeatedly been drawn from the book of Acts that a baptism in Christ’s name was current at some places during the 1st century, by the 2nd century the irreducible minimum for a valid baptism appears to have been the use of water and the invocation of the Trinity. Usually the candidate was immersed three times, but there are references to pouring as well.

Most of those baptized in the early church were converts from Greco-Roman paganism and therefore were adults. Both the New Testament and the Church Fathers of the 2nd century make it clear that the gift of salvation belongs to children, however. Tertullian seems to have been the first to object to infant baptism, suggesting that by the 2nd century it was already a common practice. It remained the accepted method of receiving members in the Eastern and Western churches.

source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/baptism

 

[GodsGrace]

my self i find no merit in infant baptism i was raised methodist they sprinkle not sure on infants

There's merit in infant baptism only if you believe that Adam's sin is imputed to all that are born. In that case it would cleanse this original sin from the newborn. Otherwise, it's purely a ritual.