Hold On For A Second I'm Confused

[WIP]

So then one way or the other when we forgive and then ask God for forgiveness He will still forgive us but it has to be either dealt with here or in Heaven because somebody who has a grudge in their heart cannot enter but,.. it doesn't mean that they won't get a second chance to if they truly know Christ as their Lord and Savior and they don't automatically go to Hell. Is that what you're saying then?

Are you willing to take that wager (talking about the part I put in bold type)? Forgive now. Don't delay. It is the Christian thing to do.

 

[Nathan12]

So then one way or the other when we forgive and then ask God for forgiveness He will still forgive us but it has to be either dealt with here or in Heaven because somebody who has a grudge in their heart cannot enter but,.. it doesn't mean that they won't get a second chance to if they truly know Christ as their Lord and Savior and they don't automatically go to Hell. Is that what you're saying then?

Your salvation is not in jeopardy because of sins (including an unforgiving spirit) which have not been addressed. However your fellowship with God is affected. Therefore Christians must forgive others as God has forgiven us.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Are you willing to take that wager (talking about the part I put in bold type)? Forgive now. Don't delay. It is the Christian thing to do.

No, I never said I was,.. but I'm just trying to get to understand what these verses are truly saying when one seems to be contradicting the other and I think I'm understanding it a bit more now,.. but I'm still not fully grasping it yet.

 

[stovebolts]

So then one way or the other when we forgive and then ask God for forgiveness He will still forgive us but it has to be either dealt with here or in Heaven because somebody who has a grudge in their heart cannot enter but,.. it doesn't mean that they won't get a second chance to if they truly know Christ as their Lord and Savior and they don't automatically go to Hell. Is that what you're saying then?

You are misunderstanding the difference between heaven (the place we go after we die) and the Kingdom of Heaven (God) that is here, now... Like this very moment.
You are currently alive and you have a choice. You can live like your part of this world, or you can live how God wants you to and participate in Gods present kingdom... Here, now.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Your salvation is not in jeopardy because of sins (including an unforgiving spirit) which have not been addressed. However your fellowship with God is affected. Therefore Christians must forgive others as God has forgiven us.

Okay,.. that makes a bit more sense now. Care to elaborate more on this?

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

You are misunderstanding the difference between heaven (the place we go after we die) and the Kingdom of Heaven (God) that is here, now... Like this very moment.
You are currently alive and you have a choice. You can live like your part of this world, or you can live how God wants you to and participate in Gods present kingdom... Here, now.

Apparently so then because I thought that they were exactly the same place.

 

[stovebolts]

Apparently so then because I thought that they were exactly the same place.

Nope. That's why Jesus says the Kingdom of Heaven is now, or inside you(Found in Matthew), which is exactly the same as the Kingdom of God (found in Mark, Luke and John).

It's present tense.

We have access to Gods Kingdom, here, now, this very moment. We have an opportunity to bring Heaven to earth. In other words, we have an opportunity to live in Gods presence. But there are hindrances that mostly come from ourselves.

Jesus forgives us, so he is our role model. We do what we see Jesus do and by doing so, we participate in Gods Kingdom, here, now.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Nope. That's why Jesus says the Kingdom of Heaven is now, or inside you(Found in Matthew), which is exactly the same as the Kingdom of God (found in Mark, Luke and John).

It's present tense.

We have access to Gods Kingdom, here, now, this very moment. We have an opportunity to bring Heaven to earth. In other words, we have an opportunity to live in Gods presence. But there are hindrances that mostly come from ourselves.

Jesus forgives us, so he is our role model. We do what we see Jesus do and by doing so, we participate in Gods Kingdom, here, now.

That makes a lot more sense to me now,.. but just in case she has anything to add to this (which she generally always does) I think I'm going to bring for_his_glory in on this because she's like the queen of scripture lol!

 

[stovebolts]

That makes a lot more sense to me now,.. but just in case she has anything to add to this (which she generally always does) I think I'm going to bring for_his_glory in on this because she's like the queen of scripture lol!

Good call!

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Good call!

Thanks! I kept hoping that she would discover this thread for herself,.. but now she will come on here and straighten me and everybody else out.

 

[WIP]

Your salvation is not in jeopardy because of sins (including an unforgiving spirit) which have not been addressed. However your fellowship with God is affected. Therefore Christians must forgive others as God has forgiven us.

Okay,.. that makes a bit more sense now. Care to elaborate more on this?

I would also like to see more regarding fellowship with God vs salvation. Taking it to the extreme, suppose one destroyed the fellowship they have with God. What would that look like in heaven?

 

[Nathan12]

I would also like to see more regarding fellowship with God vs salvation.

1 John 1 & 2 address the issue of present sins in the believer's life and how they affect fellowship with God. Which boils down to daily self-examination, confession of sins, repentance or turning away from sins, and recognizing that the blood of Christ continuously cleanses us from all our sins (upon confession and repentance).

The analogy of a human father and an errant child should help. The child always remains the child of his father, regardless of his behavior. However the child's fellowship is broken when he does something naughty and can't look his father in the eye.

Taking it to the extreme, suppose one destroyed the fellowship they have with God. What would that look like in heaven?

God deals with errant children as described in Hebrews 12. But if a Christian wilfully persists in sin, "there is a sin unto death" as the apostle John tells us. Which means the sinning Christian dies prematurely (e.g. Ananias & Sapphira) but his salvation is still secure. And Paul urges Christians to examine themselves before partaking of the Lord's Supper for this same reason.

Christians should be clear that their salvation does not depend on what they do or do not do after they are genuinely saved by grace and have become children of God. That is because salvation is entirely a supernatural work of God and Christ, and the eternal security of the believer is a part of that.

But their fellowship, testimony, rewards, and duration of life on earth are affected by failing to deal with sins. Christians can also become weak and sick instead of dying permaturely (1 Cor 11:30). Therefore Paul exhorts us to judge ourselves.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

1 John 1 & 2 address the issue of present sins in the believer's life and how they affect fellowship with God. Which boils down to daily self-examination, confession of sins, repentance or turning away from sins, and recognizing that the blood of Christ continuously cleanses us from all our sins (upon confession and repentance).

The analogy of a human father and an errant child should help. The child always remains the child of his father, regardless of his behavior. However the child's fellowship is broken when he does something naughty and can't look his father in the eye.

God deals with errant children as described in Hebrews 12. But if a Christian wilfully persists in sin, "there is a sin unto death" as the apostle John tells us. Which means the sinning Christian dies prematurely (e.g. Ananias & Sapphira) but his salvation is still secure. And Paul urges Christians to examine themselves before partaking of the Lord's Supper for this same reason.

Christians should be clear that their salvation does not depend on what they do or do not do after they are genuinely saved by grace and have become children of God. That is because salvation is entirely a supernatural work of God and Christ, and the eternal security of the believer is a part of that.

But their fellowship, testimony, rewards, and duration of life on earth are affected by failing to deal with sins. Christians can also become weak and sick instead of dying permaturely (1 Cor 11:30). Therefore Paul exhorts us to judge ourselves.

Umm yeah, sorry,.. I didn't really get a word of that to be perfectly honest with you.

 

[WIP]

1 John 1 & 2 address the issue of present sins in the believer's life and how they affect fellowship with God. Which boils down to daily self-examination, confession of sins, repentance or turning away from sins, and recognizing that the blood of Christ continuously cleanses us from all our sins (upon confession and repentance).

The analogy of a human father and an errant child should help. The child always remains the child of his father, regardless of his behavior. However the child's fellowship is broken when he does something naughty and can't look his father in the eye.

God deals with errant children as described in Hebrews 12. But if a Christian wilfully persists in sin, "there is a sin unto death" as the apostle John tells us. Which means the sinning Christian dies prematurely (e.g. Ananias & Sapphira) but his salvation is still secure. And Paul urges Christians to examine themselves before partaking of the Lord's Supper for this same reason.

Christians should be clear that their salvation does not depend on what they do or do not do after they are genuinely saved by grace and have become children of God. That is because salvation is entirely a supernatural work of God and Christ, and the eternal security of the believer is a part of that.

But their fellowship, testimony, rewards, and duration of life on earth are affected by failing to deal with sins. Christians can also become weak and sick instead of dying permaturely (1 Cor 11:30). Therefore Paul exhorts us to judge ourselves.

I have to say that I'm not able to agree completely with your description however because the topic is one which we would go round and round unendingly and CFnet has placed a hold on the topic this discussion will undoubtedly head towards, I will just leave it at that.

 

[ezra]

This is one area where I think the Christian churches today fail the sheep. Works and belief go hand-in-hand. Too often our churches today teach that we just say a few magic words and whalla! we're saved and then we can go on living in the flesh as we have always done.

Okay, I know the churches don't specifically teach that last part but I believe they fail to express the relationship between our faith and our works and this is precisely what the books of James and Hebrews speak about. It's easier and more uplifting to just tell someone they are saved and stop there because to have to also tell them that they have a duty and a privilege to live a live worthy of that calling...well....that is too discouraging because it means one must rethink his/her priorities.

agreed

 

[ezra]

So then one way or the other when we forgive and then ask God for forgiveness He will still forgive us but it has to be either dealt with here or in Heaven because somebody who has a grudge in their heart cannot enter but,.. it doesn't mean that they won't get a second chance to if they truly know Christ as their Lord and Savior and they don't automatically go to Hell. Is that what you're saying then?

are you familiar with the story of ESAU and Jacob ? Esau had a root of bitterness

Hebrews 12:14-16

1 4 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Genesis 25:29-34 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
29 Once when Jacob was cooking a stew, Esau came in from the field exhausted. 30 He said to Jacob, “Let me eat some of that red stuff, because I’m exhausted.” That is why he was also named Edom.[a]

31 Jacob replied, “First sell me your birthright.”

32 “Look,” said Esau, “I’m about to die, so what good is a birthright to me?”

33 Jacob said, “Swear to me first.” So he swore to Jacob and sold his birthright to him. 34 Then Jacob gave bread and lentil stew to Esau; he ate, drank, got up, and went away. So Esau despised his birthright.

read all of chapter 25 -- would be interested in listening instead of reading ?

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.: Audio

www.biblegateway.com

you can listen to all the bible what ever version you like go here https://www.biblegateway.com/ there is a drop box called books of the Bible click on it select which book

you will see 5 icons at the top click on last one looks like horn .you can listen play around with it

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

are you familiar with the story of ESAU and Jacob ? Esau had a root of bitterness

Hebrews 12:14-16

1 4 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Genesis 25:29-34 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
29 Once when Jacob was cooking a stew, Esau came in from the field exhausted. 30 He said to Jacob, “Let me eat some of that red stuff, because I’m exhausted.” That is why he was also named Edom.[a]

31 Jacob replied, “First sell me your birthright.”

32 “Look,” said Esau, “I’m about to die, so what good is a birthright to me?”

33 Jacob said, “Swear to me first.” So he swore to Jacob and sold his birthright to him. 34 Then Jacob gave bread and lentil stew to Esau; he ate, drank, got up, and went away. So Esau despised his birthright.

read all of chapter 25 -- would be interested in listening instead of reading ?

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.: Audio

www.biblegateway.com

That depends,.. if I listen to it will I be able to understand anything of what you just said and its significance to this circumstance?

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not the Queen of scripture as like everyone else I learn as I go forward in His word.

Here are a few scriptures about forgiveness.

Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil.

What is written here means to be quick to forgive those who come against you just as God is quick to forgive you your sin when you repent of it. Never hold a grudge as this gives place to the devil and causes you to lose fellowship with the Father. Be ye angry and sin not means we can be angry when someone does us wrong, but only when it is justified to be angry, just like Jesus being angry in John 2:13-16. What did Jesus say while hanging on the cross, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

Be slow to anger and quick to forgive as forgiveness has to come at the moment of the transgression against you. It took me along time to learn that as I was quick to anger, but slow to forgive.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

I'm not the Queen of scripture as like everyone else I learn as I go forward in His word.

Here are a few scriptures about forgiveness.

Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil.

What is written here means to be quick to forgive those who come against you just as God is quick to forgive you your sin when you repent of it. Never hold a grudge as this gives place to the devil and causes you to lose fellowship with the Father. Be ye angry and sin not means we can be angry when someone does us wrong, but only when it is justified to be angry, just like Jesus being angry in John 2:13-16. What did Jesus say while hanging on the cross, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

Be slow to anger and quick to forgive as forgiveness has to come at the moment of the transgression against you. It took me along time to learn that as I was quick to anger, but slow to forgive.

Lol! I only called you the queen of scripture because so far I haven't asked you a question that you can't answer. Still, I don't think any of this means that forgiveness is a requirement to get into Heaven is it? Cause that would be based on a work and you can't earn your way to Heaven because it's impossible.

 

[for_his_glory]

Lol! I only called you the queen of scripture because so far I haven't asked you a question that you can't answer. Still, I don't think any of this means that forgiveness is a requirement to get into Heaven is it? Cause that would be based on a work and you can't earn your way to Heaven because it's impossible.

Forgiveness is not a work, but something that we have to do in order for God to forgive us. If God can not forgive us because we can not forgive others do you really think there is a place for us in His kingdom?

The works we do are done in love for others unto the glory of the Lord in that which he has called us to follow in like that of Matthew 25:31-40. If we are not forgiving others then we are not walking in love even towards our enemies that we are to also love and pray for their salvation.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. 14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.