Homosexuality

[turnorburn]

I thought this thread got put to bed. :smt018

turnorburn

 

[Cornelius]

.........

 

[LostSoul]

The message I have always felt the Bible to portray is this:

Hate the sin. NOT the sinner.

Call it being niave or ignorant if the need be. Just does not seem to me that any one can openly say the Bible promotes hate, then say at the same time that God is love.

Just my thoughts.....

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[St Francis]

The message I have always felt the Bible to portray is this:

Hate the sin. NOT the sinner.

Call it being niave or ignorant if the need be. Just does not seem to me that any one can openly say the Bible promotes hate, then say at the same time that God is love.

Just my thoughts.....

May God Bless You

Danielle

Sounds good to me.

 

[Rebel]

Sin is wrong. Period. Homosexuality is a sin (albiet somewhat more blasphemeous than most others), and therefore is wrong. Should we then hate homosexuals and all other sinners? No. We love them enough to want to see them saved, therefore we share the salvation message of Jesus Christ with them. People who claim we hate homosexuals because we share the salvation message with them don't realize that we would be hating them by not sharing the salvation message with them. If we love someone, we want what is best for them. That's why God, out of love, gave His son, so that the wolrd through him might be saved rather than perish in their sins.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

 

[LostSoul]

Sin is wrong. Period. Homosexuality is a sin (albiet somewhat more blasphemeous than most others), and therefore is wrong. Should we then hate homosexuals and all other sinners? No. We love them enough to want to see them saved, therefore we share the salvation message of Jesus Christ with them. People who claim we hate homosexuals because we share the salvation message with them don't realize that we would be hating them by not sharing the salvation message with them. If we love someone, we want what is best for them. That's why God, out of love, gave His son, so that the wolrd through him might be saved rather than perish in their sins.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

I think the particular hatred that was referenced was well displayed earlier. That being when we have Christians saying "God hates homosexuals." For there is none amongst us who can say WHOM God hates. Though there is no doubt in my mind God hates sin, I doubt He hates those who do. For technically we all do. There is not one of us without sin.

 

[Rebel]

Sin is wrong. Period. Homosexuality is a sin (albiet somewhat more blasphemeous than most others), and therefore is wrong. Should we then hate homosexuals and all other sinners? No. We love them enough to want to see them saved, therefore we share the salvation message of Jesus Christ with them. People who claim we hate homosexuals because we share the salvation message with them don't realize that we would be hating them by not sharing the salvation message with them. If we love someone, we want what is best for them. That's why God, out of love, gave His son, so that the wolrd through him might be saved rather than perish in their sins.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

I think the particular hatred that was referenced was well displayed earlier. That being when we have Christians saying "God hates homosexuals." For there is none amongst us who can say WHOM God hates. Though there is no doubt in my mind God hates sin, I doubt He hates those who do. For technically we all do. There is not one of us without sin.

True, God does love both those in the world and those in His kingdom, but His love for each is different. For those in the world His love to them is that He desires what is best for them, that being a relatinoship with Him (the John 3:16 kind of love). For those in God's kingdom, He has a love relationship with them which He does and cannot have with the world, for a relationship requires love on both sides and the world hates God. Going out and shouting that God hates homosexuals is not going to get people saved, but at the same time going out and shouting that God loves homosexuals is not going to get anyone saved either, because all that does is tell them that it's okay to live in their sins for God loves them anyway.

As for there not being one of us without sin, I have to disagree. Everyone in God's kingdom is to live without sin, otherwise we're no better than the world and we hate God too.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

 

[LostSoul]

As for there not being one of us without sin, I have to disagree. Everyone in God's kingdom is to live without sin, otherwise we're no better than the world and we hate God too.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

Well I cannot agree on that. For the only perfect man in existance was and is Jesus. No one of us can ever be even if we strive to follow after Jesus. Then this is only my understanding and beliefs. To each their own. For the idea to me of any one of us being perfect erases the significance of Jesus' sacrificing Himself up as Heaven's perfect Lamb. Again...just my thoughts.

 

[St Francis]

I think the particular hatred that was referenced was well displayed earlier. That being when we have Christians saying "God hates homosexuals." For there is none amongst us who can say WHOM God hates. Though there is no doubt in my mind God hates sin, I doubt He hates those who do. For technically we all do. There is not one of us without sin.

I basically agree with you. But I've said it a million times before: The difference with homosexual activity is that kids are being taught that it is NOT a sin. We all know that m urder, theft, rape, etc.. is sin, but when kids are taught that homosexual sex is not a sin, the result is this cultural divide we are seeing. And I personally believe the kids are getting that stuff from schools and colleges, among other places. If parents don't take charge of their schools soon, 50 years from now no one will even think its a sin... ..and the few that do will be persecuted

 

[Theo_Book]

Have we still among us those who have not learned the basic element of Christianity? Have we those among us still, those who have not learned what it means to "deny self?" When we understand such things as "Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

This simply put, tells us that if we are going to exercise our "individuality" IN the FLESH, we are not only "not in the spirit" but remain unfit for the spirit of God to dwell in us. We must not only "deny" our "self" but must recognize what it is about the "self" of us we are to deny. AND what that denial consists of.

"I have the right...." is a popular mantra of today's society, that has invaded the church, almost to the point of destruction. Do I have the right to "self-expression" for example. In the constitution lf the United States, perhaps, (though it is not expressly stated) but not in the church of God and Christ.

Christ taught us to overcome our "natural man," which is a reference to that about us which is in common with brute beasts, our "nature." "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:" [I Cor 2:14]

Somehow, the teaching of truth has been turned from confronting sin, to appeasing sinners. There is a movement alive and well and growing at an alarming rate, called "Political correctness" that is pervading every level of society, every element of philosophy, and all aspects of religion in this country. And it is based on something called "the New World Order." Its aim is to get a diverse cultural hegemony to not make anyone uncomfortable with "who they are."

We no longer teach children in school that "self-esteem" is a reward of effort, but is theirs by
"right." We are becoming a nation not of "political correctness" but a nation that no longer recognizes "incorrectness." "Anything goes" has become a standard that serves as guide to a society that uses their own "wants" and "desires" as a guide to what is "right." We are fast becoming a "natural" society.

But the church is not to be composed of "natural" men, but "spiritual;" That is, men who are in the spirit, live by the spirit, and allow God to dwell in them spiritually. To allow therefore,
"Natural" men to lead and teach in an "spiritual" environment, kinda defeats the point doesn't it?

What then is a "Natural" Man? A liar tells lies; a thief steals; a fornicator fornicates; an adulterer comits adultry; a bully bullies; a false teacher teaches falsely; etc., but "Ye have no so learned Christ." The liar must stop lying; the fornicator must stop fornicating; the adulterer must stop comitting adultry; the bully must stop bullying; the false teacher must stop teaching falsely; etc.

But it does not end there. All that "stopping" is an empty gesture" if there is not another important change. Remember when a demon was cast out, only to be replaced by seven that were worse? [Mat 12:38-45] And WHY did that happen? Because nothing else changed. Nothing replaced the vacuum created by the "stopping" of evil acts.

It requires a replacing of evil acts with their antithesis, good acts. Liars must speak truth; thieves must earn to provide for those who have nothing; bullies must help the weak; fornicators and adulterers must dedicate their bodies to cleanliness, to prepare themselves for the indwelling of God; False teachers must teach truth....

It is not enough to just stop sinning, a Christian must be about doing the works designed by God before the foundation of the world, for the saints to be doing.[Eph 2:10]

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes. Will stopping homosexual activity save one? Not in and of itself. One must replace abominable behaviour with good behaviour and practices, and grow in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

The same is true of lying, adultry, bullying, stealing, and all sinful practices and behaviours.

 

[allanpopa]

I haven't ever heard a good reason to think that gay people are going to burn in a lake of lava for longer than imaginable. The way I see it, gossip and slander hurt very many more people than a homosexual relationship ever could, if anyone's going to burn it'll be them, and as far as I see it, churches, all churches, every church, probably even most people here are gossippers and slanderers.

Hope you enjoy your evenings.

Allan

 

[LostSoul]

I basically agree with you. But I've said it a million times before: The difference with homosexual activity is that kids are being taught that it is NOT a sin. We all know that m urder, theft, rape, etc.. is sin, but when kids are taught that homosexual sex is not a sin, the result is this cultural divide we are seeing. And I personally believe the kids are getting that stuff from schools and colleges, among other places. If parents don't take charge of their schools soon, 50 years from now no one will even think its a sin... ..and the few that do will be persecuted

StFrancis,

You have just expressed a concern of mine in regards of homosexuality and its affect on children. For if the world around us does okay it....and advertises such...to a point where we are to see it as 'acceptable' I can see why there would be issues.

A question though rises out of this: How should believers, righteously avoid promotion of homosexuality without becoming demonstrators of hate?

 

[mondar]

I basically agree with you. But I've said it a million times before: The difference with homosexual activity is that kids are being taught that it is NOT a sin. We all know that m urder, theft, rape, etc.. is sin, but when kids are taught that homosexual sex is not a sin, the result is this cultural divide we are seeing. And I personally believe the kids are getting that stuff from schools and colleges, among other places. If parents don't take charge of their schools soon, 50 years from now no one will even think its a sin... ..and the few that do will be persecuted

What you predict will happen in 50 years (the persecution of those who say homosexuality is sin) is happening even now. In Canada, a pastor was locked up for saying homosexuality is sin. It was called a "hate crime."

StFrancis,

You have just expressed a concern of mine in regards of homosexuality and its affect on children. For if the world around us does okay it....and advertises such...to a point where we are to see it as 'acceptable' I can see why there would be issues.

A question though rises out of this: How should believers, righteously avoid promotion of homosexuality without becoming demonstrators of hate?

My concern here is the way the last question is stated. I do not intend to merely "avoid promotion of homosexuality." I intend to make it clear that I believe it to be a moral perversion and sin. I believe the homosexual community will soon have super-rights. To speak of homosexuality as an offense to God and sin will soon be called a hate crime. Where then is free speech?

The gay community is repeating over and over and over and over, that to speak of their practices as sin is a hate crime. This is being repeated so much that many are starting to believe it. Our culture seems to be asking the question how can we not offend the gay community. I see no way not to offend them. The gay community seems in perpetual outrage over the fact that Christians believe it to be sin. What will happen when the gay community demands that all Christian denominations approve homosexual ministers? That will be their next outrage.

God help us. May God give us better then we deserve.

 

[Drew]

What you predict will happen in 50 years (the persecution of those who say homosexuality is sin) is happening even now. In Canada, a pastor was locked up for saying homosexuality is sin. It was called a "hate crime."

While I agree that homosexual activity is a sin, I question your assertion about the Canadian pastor. If it is the case that I am thinking of, the pastor in question did far more than declare that homosexuality was a sin - he used language that encouraged the reader to think of homosexuals as a disease. That is indeed hateful and should be prosecuted.

But let us know the particulars if you have them.

 

[Theo_Book]

HOMOSEXUALITY VERSUS SCRIPTURE - PART I
The Presbyterian church has just had a break in its membership over the issue of ordaining a Lesbian Clergywoman.

And UF Metropolitan Community Church has issued a position statement that says "modern scholars" have discovered that the church's position on the issue has been in error for centuries, that the scriptures do not really condemn Homosexuality.

So the time of churches teaching it is not a sin is already upon us. The issue really is one of aknowledging the fact that God does have the right to legislate standards of behaviour for his creation.

UF Metropolitan Community Church- POSITION: Many people have been taught that the Bible condemns homosexuality. Metropolitan Community Church believes that this is not the truth. We believe that gay and lesbian people are completely loved and accepted by God. How can there be such a difference between parts of the Christian Church over this issue?

Largely because unproven ideas have been taught for centuries about some Scripture passages. In recent times, scholars have finally begun to study these passages in depth, with the support of historical and archaeological information about biblical times.

THEO'S RESPONSE: When Kings walk among men, red carpets are placed beneath their feet so they may stand undefiled among their subjects. But what do you do when your God walks among you? [Lev 26:12] God was not just Israel's king, he was their Deity. How do you set him above the common man; God who walks continually in the camp? You defile not the camp. You continually clean to a superlative standard; and inspect for exceptions and discrepancies.

God gave laws and ordinances whose very reason for being was to keep the camp clean, and undefiled, and fit for His presence; and it was a superlative standard. [Deu 4:8]

When God pronounced certain things unclean, it had nothing to do with men's appreciation of whether they were clean or not, but rather God's standard was the issue. There is nothing unclean about a beetle, but God declared creeping things as unclean, and forbade the Isrealites to handle
them.

If a man and his wife made love of an evening, they were unclean, because God was in the camp; not because there is anything unclean about sexual expression between married partners. It is carnal, and therefore was pronounced as unclean.

"The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even." [Lev 15:18]

Even a man whose seed issued from him without copulation, was considered unclean, because God was in the camp. It had nothing to do with any "uncleaness" inherent with being a man.

This is the law of him that hath an issue, and of him whose seed goeth from him, and is defiled therewith; [Lev 15:32]

If a man ate any animal that died of itself, or any animal which was killed by beasts, he was unclean, not because the dead animal was polluted, but because God was in the camp.

And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. [Lev 17:15]

If a man was hanged his body could not remain all night on the tree, because God declared the land cursed by it; And God walked in the camp.

Deut 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. [Deu 21:23]

And if a man divorced his wife, and she remarry, he could not take her again to marry, after her husband dies, or divorces her. "When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. 3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; 4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. " [Deu 24:1-4]

God made provision for every detail of cleanliness in the camp of Israel. Provision was even made for occasional uncleanness not foreseen, for example: "If there be among you any man, that is not clean by reason of uncleanness that chanceth him by night, then shall he go abroad out of the
camp, he shall not come within the camp: 11 But it shall be, when evening cometh on, he shall wash himself with water: and when the sun is down, he shall come into the camp again." [Deu 23:10-11]

Even the "camp latrene" was provided for: 12 "Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: 13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover
that which cometh from thee:" [Deu 23:12-13]

The reason was, God walked in the camp, and would not tollerete uncleanness: "For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from
thee." [Deu 23:14]

So whether a thing was considered an abomination, or unclean, or pollution had nothing to do with the thing itself, it was forbidden because it was not fit for the presence of God in the camp. Some things were unclean morally, but God did not make allowances for the flesh. He demanded the highest standard of behaviour because of his presence in the camp.

But some moral behaviours were called "pollution" so that the land was "defiled" by the inhabitants who practiced such things; because God walked in the earth, and such was not allowed. But it was practiced anyway among some of the nations, So God cast them out of their lands, to cleanse the land of these "pollutions."
If God demanded that the camp be clean, in which he placed his foot, how much more do you suppose he expects His saints to be clean; We who are the temple of God, and in whom He dwells today?

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

The PRONOUNCEMENT BY GOD HIMSELF: Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind (male), as with womankind (female): it is abomination.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind (male), as he lieth with a woman (female), both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Rom 1:26-27...for even their women did change the "natural use" into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the "natural use" of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly...

Scripture plainly states that a male is not to lie with a male as with a female. To rephrase, a man is not to use a man as he would a woman. There is a natural use, between a man and woman [Rom 1:26-27], and men do NOT replace women in that "natural" arrangement ordained by God.

It is highly likely that most Christians think that Sodom was destroyed for the sin of Sodomy, being totally unaware that sodomy was the last in a catalog of sins God counted against them; "Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger and in his wrath." [Deut 29:23]

Ezekial tells us that the cities had many of the characteristics that are found throughout this land today, the good old U.S.A. I think it would be a good thing if the teachers and preachers of religious bodies, would quit giving shelter and aid to such practices, and wailing and moaning about "judgeing" and "discrimination" and started preaching "repentance" to the whole of society, for all of our sins.

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I
took them away as I saw good.

God does not tollerate evil in a society, and whenever that society fails to acknowledge His right to rule, He gives them over to vile affections, which soon run rampant in their members. Look to our own society, and you will cease to wonder why it is "coming out of the closet."

UFMCC POSITION: Leviticus 18:22; 20:13-14 These verses are found in the "Holiness Code" which emphasized to the Israelites that they were to be set apart to God. The context is prohibition of practices found in the nearby fertility cult of Molech.

"Abomination" is a translation of the Hebrew word which specifically means idolatrous practices (not necessarily sexual).

The condemnation here is a reference to the fertility worship which the Israelites were to shun. The seriousness of this idolatry in Hebrew eyes was compounded by the belief that "to lie with a man as with a woman" violated the dignity of the male sex. Women were property but men were the direct image of God. To treat a man the way a woman was treated was to reduce him to property and, thereby, to violate the image of God. The issue was idolatrous activity which failed to acknowledge God's creation.

THEO'S RESPONSE: It seems a little out of balance to me, when Abomination shows up 127 times in scripture; but idolatry shows up only 5, and idolatrous only once, to say that "abomination" means "idolatry." The truth being, all idolatry is an abomination to God, but not all abominations are idolatry.

For example, Egyptians could not eat bread with Hebrews, because it was an abomination to the Egyptian, but it most certainly was not idolatry. [Gen 43:32]

As well, Shepherds were an abomination to the Egyptians, but it was not idolatry. [Gen 46:34]

"Not necessarily sexual" certainly does not mean the same thing as "Not sexual." There were times when the idolatrous service included the sexual aspect, but WITH OR WITHOUT the sexual aspect, Idolatry WAS FORBIDDEN. To add the element of Sex, and call it idolatry, and to say that "the context is prohibition of practices found in the nearby fertility cult of Molech," is to
"play games" with contextual considerations.

Let us examine the "context" of Lev 18, and see whether the Nearby fertility cult of Molech" is really the basis for this context: "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. 3 After the doings of the land of
Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. 4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God."

Molech was unknown to the Israelites while in Egypt. So far, it is not established as the basis for the context. It seems rather that God is establishing his own standard for conduct for his people, based on His presence in the camp. 5 "Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD."

He then begins a list of moral issues dealing with sexual expression among kinfolk, So far, having nothing to do with Molech, or cult prostitution: 6 "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. 7 The nakedness of thy father, or the
nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

Moving on to other members of the intimate family circle, but still no mention of Molech nor the cult prostitutes: 8 "The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness."

Sibling sexual expression was forbidden, but Molech has nothing to do with the issue, nor the cult prostitution. It is prohibited in Israel: 9 "The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness
thou shalt not uncover."

Grandchildren are next in consideration; still no Molech or cult prostitution: 10 "The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness."

Half-sisters are listed, with no Molech, or cult prostitution: 11 "The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness."

Aunts from both sides of the family, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 12 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. 13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman."

Uncles, and their wives, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 14 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt."

Daughter-in-law, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 15 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness."

Sister-in-law, no Molech, no cult prostitution; 16 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

Near kinspeople of another woman, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 17 "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

Setting Sisters against each other was forbidden, no Molech yet, nor cult prostitution: 18 "Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time."

Jews were forbidden to have a woman during the monthly period, no Molech, no cult prostitution: 19 "Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness."

Neighbor's wife off limits, no Molech, no cult prostitution in the First twenty verses: 20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her."

Finally, the purpose of the context, as supposed by the UFMCC, 21 "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD."

That's IT? One verse prohibiting the offering of seed through fire to Molech is not the context, it is a prohibition included in a context of sexual prohibitions addressed to Israel, whose God walks among them. To claim that the prohibitions of Lev 18 "is prohibition of practices found
in the nearby fertility cult of Molech," completely abandons the sense of scripture, to prove an unprovable position.

The prohibition against Homosexuality is not originated in Leviticus, not does it originate with the cult of Molech. It began in the garden with God's mandate to leave father and mother and cleave to one's wife, and the two becoming one flesh. This is not what is accomplished with a homosexual relationship: The "man" of Gen 1:27 is "male and female" - "So God created MAN (Adawm) in his own image; in the image of God created He him; male (zaw-kawr) and female (nek-ay-baw) created he them. "They," the male with his female, constitute the "man in the image of God," of the context; as well, the "man" cleaves to his "wife" to constitute the "one flesh" of Gen 2:24; equivalent to the "man" who is "them" of 1:27.

God tells us how he came to design what he considered a "help meet" for man. The word translated "meet" is a word that means suitable to his needs. God shows that simple sexual gratification was not the circumstance under which he created the woman. Adam had already seen and named the animals, with their mates, all capable of reproducing themselves; "And the
LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." [Gen 2:18-24]

God had already established the reason behind this arrangement, and there is no way a homosexual relationship meets this requirement for sexual expression - it can never bear fruit and multiply and replenish the earth: Gen 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." [Gen 1:27-28]

And He put his stamp of disapproval upon any other arrangement: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind (male), as with womankind (female): it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion." [Lev 18:22-23]

END OF PART I Copyright © 2000 Theophilus Book

 

[Theo_Book]

HOMOSEXUALITY VERSUS SCRIPTURE - PART II

Let us re-examine the context to see if perhaps we have overlooked the context of Molech and the cult prostitution: 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

27 "For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;" What abominations? The sexual perversions listed at the first twenty verses of the chapter. No Idolatry in any of it, just family sexual perversions.

28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 29 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed
before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

The keyword is "defiled," not "abominations." The fact that the practices were forbidden, makes it wrong, whether the thing practiced is proven to be bad of itself, or not. There was NO justification for the children of Israel to be practicing those forbidden behaviours, under any guise or pretense of "it's ONLY idolatry."

Verse 22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind..."

Verse 24 "DEFILE not yourselves in any of these things..." "In all these things the nations are DEFILED" "WHICH I CAST OUT before you..."

Verse 25 "And the LAND IS DEFILED..." "THEREFORE I do visit the INIQUITY thereof upon it." "And the LAND ITSELF VOMMITETH OUT HER INHABITANTS."

This whole context shows; 1st that God found the practices rampant in the land; 2nd He cast out the nations thereof BECAUSE OF SUCH PRACTICES. 3rd a follow-up study will show that God also cast out Israel from the same land for doing exactly the same things, and He DID NOT TOLERATE it in them, either.

Why would He then tolerate it in his Saints today?

UFMCC POSITION: 1Corinthians 6:9 and 1Timothy 1:10 - At issue are two words: malakee (found only in 1 Corinthians) and Arsenokeeteh, which is in both verses. Tradition assumes a homosexual meaning of the words.

Actual study reveals that in its use there, malakee means "morally weak" or, perhaps, "immoral persons" - (The translation "effeminate" in the King James Version was an archaic one and, in any case, did not imply homosexuality in Greek--as it does not today.)

Arsenokeeteh means to refer directly to cult prostitution, again. Such practices were common both in Corinth and Ephesus (where Timothy was). It clearly refers, in this use and later uses in other writings, to prostitutes who engaged in both homosexual and heterosexual cult practice.
Neither of these words can possible be translated to mean "homosexual" or any similar distortion of their meaning.

THEO'S Response: Greek (arseen) = male, "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them MALE and female, [Mat 19:4] "But from the beginning of the creation God made them MALE and female." [Mark 10:6]
"As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every MALE that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;" [Luke 2:23]

"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men (Greek = males among males) working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." [Rom 1:27]

Paul, in the Galatian letter, addresses an issue common to humanity, that of mingling with people who turn on our desires to a high degree. Paul says that if we have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ [Gal 3:27] Then Paul says we as males will not see females, but Sisters in Christ; and females will not see males, but Brothers in Christ. And Slaves will not see Masters, but Brethren; and Masters do not see Slaves, but Brethren. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither MALE nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." [Gal 3:28]

The relationship between brethren certainly cannot be a male seeing a male with sexual lust in his heart. That defies description for perversity.

Now consider another Greek word; (arsenokoitees) A man who lies with a male, a Sodomite - Paul says a male who lies with a male is deceived if he thinks to inherit the kingdom of God. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the spirit of our God." [I Cor 6:9-11]

And Paul tells Timothy that the law prohibiting such practices was made expressely because such practices were going on, contrary to sound doctrine. "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that DEFILE THEM- SELVES WITH MANKIND, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; [I Tim 1:8-10]

UFMCC POSITION: Romans 1:26-27 This is the only passage in Scripture which, apparently, talks about homosexual behaviour among women as well as men.

The dangerous, traditional interpretation come from failure to relate it TO THE WHOLE CHAPTER (emphasis mine T. Book) Paul talks about idolatrous people who put things or concerns before their devotion to God.

As an example, he refers to fertility cult worship prevalent in Rome. The homosexual activity to which he refers is idolatrous. He implies that all of the cult worshippers engaged in it. (The interpretation that he is writing about homosexual behaviour in general would force this to say that all idolatrous people become homosexual- -an obviously spurious interpretation.) The final sentence referring to their just reward is a reference to the venereal disease which was epidemic among such cults. This specific reference to fertility cult worship cannot be construed to condemn homosexual behaviour in general.

THEO'S RESPONSE: Let us examine the "WHOLE CHAPTER" then, and look for this connection that you stipulate is there. I don't see it in the first seven verses: Rom 1:1-7 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 Which he had promised afore
by his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't see it in verses 8 thru 12: Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my
prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

Still missing in verses 13 thru 15: Rom 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Paul finally enters a NEW CONTEXT in which he introduces the effect of the power of God, which he calls the Gospel: Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For
therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And he introduces the antithesis to the Gospel, the wrath of God: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who HOLD THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So far, Paul forgoes idolatry and its currupting influences to focus on the real problem, EGO: 21 Because that, when they knew God they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but BECAME VAIN IN THEIR IMAGINATIONS, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 PROFESSING
THEMSELVES TO BE WISE, they became fools,

Finally Paul mentions that which RESULTS from the sins of EGO; rather than being the CAUSE, it is the EFFECT. It is Idolatry: 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. And when they continued to pursue their road to depravity, God gave them up: 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to DISHONOUR THEIR OWN BODIES BETWEEN THEMSELVES: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

This "dishonoring" with their bodies, between "men among men" is NOT cult prostitution. It is SOCIETAL ABOMINATION. This does NOT describe a Worship service gone awry, it describes a society become depraved.

Rom 1:26 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men (GREEK; MEN AMONG MEN) working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who KNOWING THE JUDGMENT OF GOD, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, NOT ONLY DO THE SAME, but have pleasure in them that do them."

If anyone makes any claim that the scriptures of God teach that homosexuality is "O.K." he is either new to the scriptures, or a liar. I shall challenge him on every front. The word of God condemns homosexuality, lying, stealing, murder, and a whole lot of other things. To deny such is to fail to understand anything at all about God or his teachings.

And God condemns calling evil Good. [Isa 5:20]
Paul said before he was a Christian, he was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; "but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly, and in unbelief." All who are ignorant of the scriptures prior to this occasion need seek God's mercy and grace, through Godly sorrow which works repentance, and obedience to the gospel of Christ. Henceforth, to continue in such sin, only makes turning to God that much harder, for the heart is hardened, not so much by the deed, as by the will to continue the deed.

"But" say some, "I cannot quit being who I am." How does one "quit" being who one is? Paul says that "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion." [I Cor 14;31-32]

This remarkable statement was made with reference to those who would disrupt the worship service at Corinth with tongue speaking, interrupting each other, and causing general havoc. Paul gave them instruction about how to bring the situation, and the worship service, under control. "Your spirits are not in charge" is the message of his words. "You are."

Remember, if you "have put on Christ" you are living to the spirit, not to the flesh, for the flesh is dead to sin, with the crucified Christ, but alive to God to bear fruit in the spirit. We have died to sin, therefore are no longer subject to the flesh and its requirements; it has become a matter of choice alone. We choose to serve God in the Spirit, or sin in the flesh. [Rom 6:2-18]

God "condemned sin in the flesh" Paul says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT after the FLESH, but after the Spirit, for they that are after the fleah do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the spirit, the things of the spirit." [Rom 8:3-5]

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD." [Rom 8:6-8]

"But YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness." [Rom 8:9-10]

"But if the spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore brethren, we are debtors NOT to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die. but if ye, through the spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God." [Rom 8:11-14]

God looks at the deeds of the flesh second to the intent of the Spirit: "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits." [Prov 16:2]

Isaiah warns of a people who allow their own spirits to rule in covering up sin with greater sin. "Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:" [Isa 30:1]

But God also reveals how to break out of the trap the flesh sets for our spirit; "For Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation, not to be repented of; but the sorrow of the world worketh death." [II Cor 7:10]

Godly sorrow is that sorrow which we express because we have discovered, or learned, that our actions or words are contrary to what God expects of his children. We have offended our God, and are sorry for it. This kind of sorrow will lead one to repent, or turn away from such behaviour.

Worldly sorrow is a sorrow we feel when the constable knocks at the door and says "gottcha" when we are caught in violation of some law or other. We are sorry we have been caught, but not sorry for the deed; because we go right back to doing the deed, but this time, keep a better lookout for the cop.

Godly sorrow reflects how we truly feel about our relationship with God. He knows when we are truly sorrowful for who and what we have become, and he weighs the spirit. [Pro 16:2] And "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit." [Psa 34:18]

Our prayer to God should be "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." [Psa 51;10]

God will never turn away a humble contrite spirit seeking to kindle his mercy: "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." [Psa 51;17]

How do you learn to control your rebellious, flesh driven spirit? Get rid of that "cheerful heart" and be sorrowful of spirit: "A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken." [Prov 15:13]

We are told that a man who rules his spirit is greater than a man who can take a city: "He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city." [Pro 16:32]

Conversely, a man who does not control his spirit is like a city with no walls, therefore, having no defense in time of attack: "He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls." [Pro 25:28]

We are at war with the flesh, and there is no discharge from this service - When it comes our time to die, we will not command the spirit to stay so we can have time to repent: "There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it." [Ecc 8:8]

Do the scriptures truly teach that Homosexuality is "alright?" Do you still think God will dwell in the temple that is devoted to such behaviour?


END OF PART II Copyright © 2000 Theophilus Book

 

[Free]

While I agree that homosexual activity is a sin, I question your assertion about the Canadian pastor. If it is the case that I am thinking of, the pastor in question did far more than declare that homosexuality was a sin - he used language that encouraged the reader to think of homosexuals as a disease. That is indeed hateful and should be prosecuted.

And yet Richard Dawkins says similar things about theists and no one as much as raises their eyebrows.

It's off topic but I just wanted to point that out.

I haven't ever heard a good reason to think that gay people are going to burn in a lake of lava for longer than imaginable. The way I see it, gossip and slander hurt very many more people than a homosexual relationship ever could, if anyone's going to burn it'll be them, and as far as I see it, churches, all churches, every church, probably even most people here are gossippers and slanderers.

Homosexuals who have never believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus for their sins will go to hell, just like everyone else who rejects Christ. Gossiping and slandering is wrong, no one will disagree with you. Determining how right or wrong something is by basing it on how many people it may, or may not, hurt is certainly a poor way of judging. Sin is sin and rejecting Christ is why people will go to hell.

 

[allanpopa]

I'm kind of hardpressed to think of anyone suffering forever in hell, or that a homosexual relationship is just as evil as gossiping and slandering. When I wrote the comparison I was simply pointing out the simple fact that fundamentalist Christians seem to be obsessed with sex, were I to start another forum and talk about purity and how God wants us to be pure, I'm absolutely certain that everyone here would interpret it sexually. The real problem here is that homosexuality is normal to humankind and it is also non-damaging to humankind. The real problem is that society itself is moving in a general direction in which we simply will not be able to look at homosexuality as evil, we will simply look at it as another normal human possibility. Finally, I truly believe that 200 years from now churches are going to be very embarrassed by the fact that they hated on gays and lesbians, 200 years from now it's going to be treated exactly the same as the relationship between black people and the church.

Allan

 

[Free]

The real problem here is that homosexuality is normal to humankind and it is also non-damaging to humankind.

Wrong on both counts.

Finally, I truly believe that 200 years from now churches are going to be very embarrassed by the fact that they hated on gays and lesbians, 200 years from now it's going to be treated exactly the same as the relationship between black people and the church.

Firstly, no one is "hating on gays and lesbians" other than perhaps a few select fringe groups. Secondly, you might be right, but that does not mean that homosexuality wouldn't still be a sin. Thirdly, the Bible never condemns a person because of the colour of their skin.

 

[John]

The real problem here is that homosexuality is normal to humankind and it is also non-damaging to humankind. The real problem is that society itself is moving in a general direction in which we simply will not be able to look at homosexuality as evil, we will simply look at it as another normal human possibility

I don't mean to be crude but your dead wrong.

Homosexual activity is not a natural thing and it does have health problems that will effect the person over time.

The anus sole purpose is to eliminate waste nothing more nothing less. Your eyes were not designed to be taken out yet you can, does this mean its natural? No, it is an unnatural act.

Homosexual activity has no place even in the proposed evolutionary framework for crying out loud :rolling

My on the entire matter is this. Homosexual activity is just another sin, we are ALL sinners, i am not gonna stop swearing tomorrow just like many homosexuals are not gonna stop tomorrow, but for heavens sake leave the kids out of it, DO NOT teach them that its natural, DO NOT lie to them and tell them they are born that way and DO NOT adopt them.