How about election based on foreknowledge?

[Dave Slayer]

HOW ABOUT ELECTION BASED ON FOREKNOWLEDGE?
http://kruszer.tripod.com/election3.html

In trying to reconcile the verses about election with their concept of "free will", many people explain election this way: God foreknows our faith and elects us on the basis of our choice of Him. This theory, although it suits the free will idea, is based on a misinterpretation of Romans 8:29-30. ("For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified)."

One only needs to ponder briefly the implications of the previous assertion to understand how impossible this system would be. For if God chooses man based on their choice of Him, it really is no choice at all on the part of God. He is merely rewarding His creation for a choice they made. (As Chuck Swindoll puts it: "that's not pre-destination that's post-destination". It would also follow that God's will would then be controlled and defined by the will of His own creatures. (For He could only chose to save them if they would chose Him.) Yet Jesus Himself declared: "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..." (John 15:16)

Another essential point to consider regarding this line of thought is this: Supposing that man is foreordained to salvation based on his foreseen acceptance of God, one would have to ask, how would that man have been able to chose God without it first being of God? For according to the above verse, only those who have been predestinated are called unto salvation, are justified and glorified. Without God first predestinating man, there would be no faith to foresee.

Or, to put it another way, if man is dead in his sin (as previously established), if he, left to himself, does not desire to come to God and depends solely on God's calling and drawing to come to Him, God could not have looked into eternity to come and seen that I would choose Him; for in fact I would not, were He not the one choosing me first. ("We love Him because He first loved us ") The free- willer puts the cart before the horse.. He asserts that God gives faith because man is willing. But the bible teaches that "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy".. (Romans 9:11) Again, the free-willer (Arminian) says: God chose me because I am willing. But I say, (and I believe the scriptures affirm) that I am willing, because He chose me.

Charles Spurgeon explains it in a similar fashion: "Did my savior die for me because I believed on Him? No; I was not then in existence; I had then no being. Could the Saviour therefore have died because I had faith, when I myself was not yet born? Could that have been the origin of my Saviour's love towards me? Oh! no; my Saviour died for me long before I believed. "But," says someone, "He foresaw that you would have faith; and therefore, He loved you." What did He foresee about my faith? Did He foresee that I should get that faith myself, and that I should believe on Him of myself? No; Christ could not foresee that, because no Christian man will ever say that faith came of itself without the gift and without the working of the Holy Spirit."

While considering this issue of faith based on foreknowledge, one must also take a close look at Romans 8:29 "The first few words clearly say "For whom He did foreknow..." Note that it does not specify "for those whose faith He did foreknow.."; it does not say that there was anything in particular in us that He foreknew, but it says WHOM He foreknew. He foreknew people. And those people that He foreknew, he predestinated, He called, He justified and He glorified. . If one would try to say that it was our faith that He foreknew when the text does not say so, another could just as easily say that He foreknew our works, and that would be equally false

 

[samuel]

Here is a few verses you might consider. This says that there is no consideration of good or bad, or of the individuals choice, but of God who shows mercy on whom he wills.


Ro:9:10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Ro:9:11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro:9:12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ro:9:13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro:9:14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro:9:15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro:9:16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[Heidi]

HOW ABOUT ELECTION BASED ON FOREKNOWLEDGE?
http://kruszer.tripod.com/election3.html

In trying to reconcile the verses about election with their concept of "free will", many people explain election this way: God foreknows our faith and elects us on the basis of our choice of Him. This theory, although it suits the free will idea, is based on a misinterpretation of Romans 8:29-30. ("For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified)."

One only needs to ponder briefly the implications of the previous assertion to understand how impossible this system would be. For if God chooses man based on their choice of Him, it really is no choice at all on the part of God. He is merely rewarding His creation for a choice they made. (As Chuck Swindoll puts it: "that's not pre-destination that's post-destination". It would also follow that God's will would then be controlled and defined by the will of His own creatures. (For He could only chose to save them if they would chose Him.) Yet Jesus Himself declared: "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..." (John 15:16)

Another essential point to consider regarding this line of thought is this: Supposing that man is foreordained to salvation based on his foreseen acceptance of God, one would have to ask, how would that man have been able to chose God without it first being of God? For according to the above verse, only those who have been predestinated are called unto salvation, are justified and glorified. Without God first predestinating man, there would be no faith to foresee.

Or, to put it another way, if man is dead in his sin (as previously established), if he, left to himself, does not desire to come to God and depends solely on God's calling and drawing to come to Him, God could not have looked into eternity to come and seen that I would choose Him; for in fact I would not, were He not the one choosing me first. ("We love Him because He first loved us ") The free- willer puts the cart before the horse.. He asserts that God gives faith because man is willing. But the bible teaches that "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy".. (Romans 9:11) Again, the free-willer (Arminian) says: God chose me because I am willing. But I say, (and I believe the scriptures affirm) that I am willing, because He chose me.

Charles Spurgeon explains it in a similar fashion: "Did my savior die for me because I believed on Him? No; I was not then in existence; I had then no being. Could the Saviour therefore have died because I had faith, when I myself was not yet born? Could that have been the origin of my Saviour's love towards me? Oh! no; my Saviour died for me long before I believed. "But," says someone, "He foresaw that you would have faith; and therefore, He loved you." What did He foresee about my faith? Did He foresee that I should get that faith myself, and that I should believe on Him of myself? No; Christ could not foresee that, because no Christian man will ever say that faith came of itself without the gift and without the working of the Holy Spirit."

While considering this issue of faith based on foreknowledge, one must also take a close look at Romans 8:29 "The first few words clearly say "For whom He did foreknow..." Note that it does not specify "for those whose faith He did foreknow.."; it does not say that there was anything in particular in us that He foreknew, but it says WHOM He foreknew. He foreknew people. And those people that He foreknew, he predestinated, He called, He justified and He glorified. . If one would try to say that it was our faith that He foreknew when the text does not say so, another could just as easily say that He foreknew our works, and that would be equally false

Sorry, but God isn't just capable of foreknowledge, he's omnipotent as well as omniscient.

Boy, these people who think that man runs the universe and God just sits in the clouds watching what we do all the while twiddling his thumbs because he knows what is going to happen. In that case, why pray if you don't believe that God acts in people's lives? :o

But human pride will do anything to take credit for what God does for mankind. I'm tired of listening to that pride. It's self-righteous and unbiblical.

 

[follower of Christ]

Here is a few verses you might consider. This says that there is no consideration of good or bad, or of the individuals choice, but of God who shows mercy on whom he wills.


Ro:9:10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Ro:9:11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro:9:12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ro:9:13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro:9:14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro:9:15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro:9:16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Romans 9 has a context that has little to actually do with individual predestination when one READS and UNDERSTANDS what is being spoken of as a whole.
Romans 9 isnt about the individual....its about what has happened to the NATION of Israel...

 

[follower of Christ]

But human pride will do anything to take credit for what God does for mankind. I'm tired of listening to that pride. It's self-righteous and unbiblical.

God in His sovereignty gave man a will of his own to make choices when he is given options.
There is no taking credit from God in accepting that fact.

 

[Reformed]

God in His sovereignty gave man a will of his own to make choices when he is given options.
There is no taking credit from God in accepting that fact.

Yes, we make choices, but not choices based on libertarian freewill (LFW). If we make choices based on LFW, and God knows those choices ahead of time, then our choices must occur as he foresaw, otherwise he would've been wrong. Since God is never wrong about what he knows, and since he foresaw the choices you make, your choices could not have happened any other way. In other words, you could not have refrained from making the choices you made, therefore you do not have LFW.

 

[Heidi]

God in His sovereignty gave man a will of his own to make choices when he is given options.
There is no taking credit from God in accepting that fact.[/quot

Wrong. The sinful nature cannot choose God. (Romans 8:8-9, 2 Corinthians 4:4, John 6;64-65, to name a few). Only the power of he Holy Spirit can give one the ability to believe. Your beliefs come from the secular world who doesn't believe that a higher intelligence runs the universe. The following is among the many, many, many verses that tell us that God is the actually controlling the events in the universe including the minds & hearts of men:

Isaiah 54:16, "For I the Lord have created the destroyer to work havoc...

"Isaiah 19:14, "The Lord poured into them a spirit of dizziness, they make Egypt stagger in all that she does..."

Job 12:24, "He deprives the leaders of the earth of their reason; he sends them wandering through a trackless waste. They grope in darkness with no light; he makes them stagger like drunkards."

1 Samuel 16:14, "Now the spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him."

2 Thessalonians 2:ll "For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

Revelation 17:17, "For God put it into their hearts to accomplish His purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled."

DT. 28;28, "The Lord will afflict you with madness."

Jeremiah 15:4, "I will make them abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth because of what manasseh son of Hezekiah king of Judah did to Israel."

DT. 4:27, "The Lord will scatter you among the peoples and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the Lord will drive you." In fact, most of Deuteronomy and for that matter, most of the bible tells us what THE LORD DOES and WILL DO.

Jeremiah 10:23, "I know O Lord, that a man's life is not his own. It is not for a man to direct his steps."

Proverbs 16:9, "In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps."

Romans 9:18, "Therefore, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and hardens whom he wants to harden."

There are so many more verses about the fact that God is controlling man that I would have to practically quote the whole bible to list them all!

But unfortunately, most people don't read or know the whole bible. They read a few verses, then make up beliefs in their imaginations about who God is rather than learn it from God himself in his word.

But there are others who do read the bible but don't like the fact that God controls the hearts and minds of man. So they too make up their own stories instead of relying on God's word. So my advice; read and believe the bible. Only then will you know who God is and what he does.

 

[samuel]

Romans 9 has a context that has little to actually do with individual predestination when one READS and UNDERSTANDS what is being spoken of as a whole.
Romans 9 isnt about the individual....its about what has happened to the NATION of Israel...

That is correct, but it has much to say about how God operates in the lives of his creation. Most people think Gods choice is made on foreknowledge of the ending. While it is true there is nothing hidden or not known by God, this would leave the decision in the hands of men. Now since no man seeks God, or is worth a plugged nickel morally, God has to do the choosing. People do not like to think something is out of their hands, or someone is making choices for them, but fortunately for us God does.

If you read, and understand the Bible, and see where man is morally and spiritually, there can be nothing called free will salvation. If that were so, no one would be saved.

 

[Heidi]

That is correct, but it has much to say about how God operates in the lives of his creation. Most people think Gods choice is made on foreknowledge of the ending. While it is true there is nothing hidden or not known by God, this would leave the decision in the hands of men.

I just showed you that God is determining man's steps! :o But again, the pride in man always has to get in there and try to take credit for what God is doing in the world. So I have a question for you;

Since Romans 13:1 tells us that God is who establishes every authority on earth, then please explain how the earthly leaders get in power by their own "free" will. :o

 

[samuel]

I just showed you that God is determining man's steps! But again, the pride in man always has to get in there and try to take credit for what God is doing in the world. So I have a question for you;

It seems you did not read all of the post you are questioning. If you had! you would have seen I don't attribute anything, to mans free will. God is in charge of all.

When God chooses to place a leader in charge, sometimes he may not be such a good fellow. But God has a purpose in these things. If indeed our choices counted, I would dread to see the outcome. If you think its bad now, you don't know anything.

Sometimes I think God did let us decide the last three elections, just to teach us a lesson. But alas doorknobs never learn anything, they are just to dumb.

#PS: Well most of us, I don't get involved in voting.

 

[Heidi]

Sometimes I think God did let us decide the last three elections, just to teach us a lesson. But alas doorknobs never learn anything, they are just to dumb.

Again, as I posted, God decides everything. He even deprives the leaders of the nations of their reason! as Job 12:24 explains.

But unfortunately, most people don't know much of what the bible says. They read a few popular verses then construct a whole idea of God based on the few verses they take out of context. So it's extremely important to not only read the whole bible but to know the whole bible so one can know who God is. ;)

 

[Drew]

Here is a few verses you might consider. This says that there is no consideration of good or bad, or of the individuals choice, but of God who shows mercy on whom he wills.


Ro:9:10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Ro:9:11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro:9:12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ro:9:13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro:9:14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro:9:15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro:9:16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This material is not even about the matter of election unto an eternal destiny.

In the case of Jacob and Esau, the "election" or choice is that one will serve the other - Paul tells this both directly (verse 12) and through Old Testament passages that he alludes to.

In the case of Moses, again, the choice is not about eternal life - it is about God's "choice" to show mercy unto the Israelites in the desert.

Seeing these examples as examples of election to a personal eternal destiny is to miss Paul's argument.

 

[Heidi]

The point is, that it was God who determined who would serve whom before they were born. The rest of the passage also talks about how God hardened Pharoah's heart and how he hardens whomever he wants to harden. So sorry, Drew, but that passage wasn't just about Jacob and Esau as you claim.

 

[jasoncran]

isaih 54:16 could be viewed as such that the Lord created the art of smithing to do work and created the means of the created object to fall apart. In physics the law of entropy. The whole verse is reference the messiah promise to restore Isreal. I dont believe in calvinism, but i do see that the Lord knows , that being said we still can refuse him.

How does on reconcile the verses whomsoever will may come with the calvinistic doctrine? Did the lord create certain people just to go to hell? and other to be saved? No choice with that.

jason

 

[Heidi]

isaih 54:16 could be viewed as such that the Lord created the art of smithing to do work and created the

means of the created object to fall apart. In physics the law of entropy. The whole verse is reference the messiah promise to restore Isreal. I dont believe in calvinism, but i do see that the Lord knows , that being said we still can refuse him.

Oh we can all put our own words in the bible, add or subtract them to say what itching ears want to hear. But that would be an interpretation instead of believing the bible as written. ;) And that's why I don't do that. God made himself as plain as he wanted to make himself. So nothing needs to be added to or subtracted from scripture. ;)

So you think you you can tell God what to do by refusing him, huh? So which power in you can make God go away? Jeremiah tried to resist God, but could not, as he said in Jeremiah 20:7-18. Do you know why? 1 John 4:4 tells us, "for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world."So do you know why God's gifts and his call are irrevocable as Romans 11;29 says? or not? :gah

God tells us in Isaiah 14:27, "For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him?" (You? ) Sorry, but you aren't stronger than God. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

did you read that verse at all in its complete form i went to that verse and reread to make sure. What you think that things fade, ie the clothes you wear dont wear out, or they last forever. people die, things fall apart. Those are examples of the law of entropy. You use batteries correct, do they last forever. no why answer without biblical verses.

Tell me how a car battery works? why do they fail without the bible?

I did add things you used a different version of the bible that used destroyer, the kjv said waster, and you didnt quote the whole thing at all.

I',m guess i'm just stupid then,for i dont have an education then or cant read then. I take those things that you say personally

 

[jasoncran]

so we have no free choice then at all, you are in error i shall use the friend of christ's response to that james 1:13-15 if we have no free will at all then is god in the wrong when James said that we can be drawn away into sin, if we have no free will then its God doing the evil but then how does that fit the verse 13? We have free choice,but the lord knows our decison will be and allows us to still make it. If he made it for us why the cross or why even have the world go this far.

ending of this now

 

[Heidi]

so we have no free choice then at all, you are in error i shall use the friend of christ's response to that james 1:13-15 if we have no free will at all then is god in the wrong when James said that we can be drawn away into sin, if we have no free will then its God doing the evil but then how does that fit the verse 13? We have free choice,but the lord knows our decison will be and allows us to still make it. If he made it for us why the cross or why even have the world go this far.

ending of this now

I,for one, would love to be as perfect as God is. So if you say I have free will, then please tell me how to choose to be as perfect as God is. :o

But the fact is that I cannot be as perfect as God: John 3:27, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven."

That means that each man has the faith that God has measured to him, no more, no less. And God's gifts and His call are irrevocable which means they cannot be altered.

No one born of God chooses to sin or wants to sin as Paul explains in Romans 7:14-25. 1 John 3:18, "No one born of God continues to sin because the one who was born of God keeps him safe so the evil one cannot harm him."

James was simply explaining that God doesn't tempt people, we are tempted by our own sinful nature. But John explains that Jesus will keep us safe so the evil one cannot harm us. So James is not saying that we want to sin or choose to sin. He's telling us that we have a sinful nature and how sin becomes full blown.

Again, if we could freely choose not to sin, then Jesus died for nothing because we could be perfect by our own effort. But we can't because we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves from it.
Anyone who loves sin and wants to sin does not belong to God but to Satan as Romans 8:8-9 explains. So you don't know the scriptures.

 

[jasoncran]

so youre saying right now that you have no sin in your life you are perfect, you dont get angry, yell, lie, cheat, etc.

what does 1 john 1:9 say on this? Do you have a pastor or attend church?

 

[Croc7801]

The point is, that it was God who determined who would serve whom before they were born. The rest of the passage also talks about how God hardened Pharoah's heart and how he hardens whomever he wants to harden. So sorry, Drew, but that passage wasn't just about Jacob and Esau as you claim.

When God hardens a heart; He only acts in the sense that He leaves them to themselves and since men love darkness more than light; their deeds are evil.

This whole discussion is based on a paradox that the human mind cannot reconcile. Just as Jesus was fully human and fully God; we do not have the capacity to comprehend this in it fullest sense.

The same thing is true with man's will and God's will. Why do men go to hell? For rejecting the gospel; it is man's responsibility. Yet God is sovereign; and chooses according to His good pleasure before the foundation of the world. Who can resist His will? No one.

Another, who wrote the Bible? God and man; it is both but ultimately it is God's sovereignty that trumps all else.

Think of Judas Iscariot; he walked with Jesus for three years and yet did not believe; talk about a hardened heart after all he had seen and done. Yet he was the instrument which God used to fulfill His purpose toward Christ.

This is why we walk by faith and not by our own human and fallible understandings.