How About Something Interesting for a Change?

[ezrider]

Whoa! Stop the presses! No need for Gods Mercy for believers?

Never said that. That is your own implication.

We are even termed "vessels of mercy" by Paul in Romans 9:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

These vessels of mercy Paul talks about. These aren't vessels that show a need for God's Mercy. These are vessels that demonstrate the mercy of God to a world blinded by sin.

 

[smaller]

I do see what you're saying... I truly do. I just think that you are underestimating the completed work that we will be once we enter into eternity.

Let me ask you this: Was God needing mercy to tolerate Adam prior to Adam's sin? Or did He walk and talk with Adam on a daily basis in full fellowship?

I think Gods Mercy is an eternal attribute. Don't know how A Perfect God could suffer anything less than Himself without it.

And yes, God did have mercy, not only to Adam, but to even have creation itself. He "suffers" that which is not Him.

There is The Creator....and there is every "thing" else that is not The Creator.

Psalm 118:4
Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

In a similar vein, might we think Christ ALWAYS makes intercession for us, like "forever"?

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[smaller]

Never said that. That is your own implication.

Pretty sure this was your paragraph. Says OC needed mercy. NT, nope. Short version.

"Those who bound themselves to the old covenant of obedience to the law find mercy in the blood of Christ, and continually bring their sins before the cross. But for those who believe in Jesus and his new covenant, they are no longer under the law, that they should seek mercy for their sins, for they have entered into his Grace."

Pretty clear to me.

These vessels of mercy Paul talks about. These aren't vessels that show a need for God's Mercy. These are vessels that demonstrate the mercy of God to a world blinded by sin.

Hmmm? (my polite way of saying: you kidding?)

Pretty sure the vessels of mercy in reference are recipients of His Mercy. NOT saying we don't share His Mercy, as we so received. Theoretically because there is an eternal supply of same to share.

 

[handy]

I think Gods Mercy is an eternal attribute. Don't know how A Perfect God could suffer anything less than Himself without it.

And yes, God did have mercy, not only to Adam, but to even have creation itself. He "suffers" that which is not Him.

There is The Creator....and there is every "thing" else that is not The Creator.

Psalm 118:4
Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

In a similar vein, might we think Christ ALWAYS makes intercession for us, like "forever"?

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Maybe it would be helpful if you could show some texts that gives examples of God's mercy to those in a perfected state. Because naturally, all in a fallen state need God's mercy and those in a state of grace (that's us) need mercy to remain in that state.
Where is the teaching that those who are glorified, perfected, completed in Christ still have need of mercy.... or intercession?

As for intercession... I think we will find some interesting insight in Hebrews 9:24-28:
For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

As of now, Christ intercedes for us in a way no human priest ever could, because a: the human priest was sinful and needed to make sacrifices for his own sins and b: the human priest died. Christ, making one perfect sacrifice did away with the need for sacrifice for all time. Once we have gone through His judgment, He will then come with no reference to sin. With no sin, no death, no uncleanliness... where is the need for mercy?

 

[handy]

Mercy implies need of same. Just saying. I'd propose without Gods Mercy we wouldn't even exist. Without Eternal Mercy God can only tolerate Himself and His Own Perfect P Perfection.

I would be interested to see the text that is the foundation for this assertion. After all... He tolerated the angels and yet show them no mercy whatsoever.

Well.... extremely enjoyable conversation and study. Time for me to get off the ole' pc, but I'll check in tomorrow!

 

[smaller]

Maybe it would be helpful if you could show some texts that gives examples of God's mercy to those in a perfected state. Because naturally, all in a fallen state need God's mercy and those in a state of grace (that's us) need mercy to remain in that state.

I believe we will live forever, in His Mercy.

Psalm 61:
7 He shall abide before God for ever: O prepare mercy and truth, which may preserve him.
8 So will I sing praise unto thy name for ever, that I may daily perform my vows.

Where is the teaching that those who are glorified, perfected, completed in Christ still have need of mercy.... or intercession?

It very much stands to reason, that being in/with God in Christ places us "in" His Mercy, does it not? Gods Mercy is not a one and done matter.

Psalm 52:8
But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.

Psalm 89:2
For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

Psalm 89:14
Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Psalm 89:28
My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

As for intercession... I think we will find some interesting insight in Hebrews 9:24-28:
For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

As of now, Christ intercedes for us in a way no human priest ever could, because a: the human priest was sinful and needed to make sacrifices for his own sins and b: the human priest died. Christ, making one perfect sacrifice did away with the need for sacrifice for all time. Once we have gone through His judgment, He will then come with no reference to sin. With no sin, no death, no uncleanliness... where is the need for mercy?

Isaiah 49:10
They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

 

[handy]

So we don't just continue on a merry-go-round of me speaking of our eternal, perfected selves, and you pulling texts that are in reference to our current, non-glorified state (in which we are, of course, dependent on His mercy)... Let's look at this:

That "meal" was put inside all of us quite some time ago. The instant God Spoke His First Words to Adam. Look at what happened BEFORE Adam ate: Mark 4:15.

The meal you referenced was that of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Which you assert was placed within us by God's first words to Adam:
“Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Are you stating then that the Fall of Man was not by Adam's rejection of God's command to not eat of the tree, but rather by embracing God's command to be fruitful and multiply?
Also... I fail to see why we should interpret Mark 4:15 as referring to something (obviously not recorded in Scripture) that happened prior to Adam eating of the forbidden fruit. This seems to fall right in with Adam's excuse that he was not at fault for fully understanding and wholly rejecting God's command regarding the fruit... but rather placed the blame on Eve, who immediately blamed the serpent. An excuse that God rejected outright.

 

[smaller]

So we don't just continue on a merry-go-round of me speaking of our eternal, perfected selves,

I wasn't saying we wouldn't be "perfected." I don't think that equates to us being God The Father Almighty though.

and you pulling texts that are in reference to our current, non-glorified state (in which we are, of course, dependent on His mercy)... Let's look at this:

smaller said: ↑
That "meal" was put inside all of us quite some time ago. The instant God Spoke His First Words to Adam. Look at what happened BEFORE Adam ate: Mark 4:15.

The meal you referenced was that of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Which you assert was placed within us by God's first words to Adam:

Eating the fruit is not what Mark 4:15 refers to whatsoever. The 'EXTERNAL ACT' of sin is the last stage of sin. Sin is always a cycle of first thought, then word, then deed.

Read Mark 4:15. THAT's what happened to Adam when the first Word of God came to that dust pile. It is not just MAN that is moved to action by the Word of God, as Mark 4:15 shows us. Satan is also "moved" to thievery IN man by those same Words of God.

“Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Are you stating then that the Fall of Man was not by Adam's rejection of God's command to not eat of the tree, but rather by embracing God's command to be fruitful and multiply?

I'm saying your posture doesn't even have the players on the table, and only sees Adam. That was never the case. We know Adam was already a lawless sinner internally (via Mark 4:15) because of what?

THE LAW that was laid upon Adam: DO NOT EAT. The law is for lawless sinners. 1 Tim. 1:9. That first LAW to Adam is no exception to 1 Tim. 1:9. Yes, that law, DO NOT EAT was given to a lawless sinner. Mark 4:15 happened to Adam.

Also... I fail to see why we should interpret Mark 4:15 as referring to something (obviously not recorded in Scripture) that happened prior to Adam eating of the forbidden fruit.

Oh, so it never happened until Jesus pointed out the fact of it? We certainly know beyond any doubt that Satan was in the Garden. We certainly know beyond any doubt that 'sin is of the devil.' 1 John 3:8. We certainly know that the tempting deceiver was in the Garden. What makes you think Mark 4:15 hasn't been a FACT from the beginning? I think it very much was a fact then and continues to be a fact to this day.

This seems to fall right in with Adam's excuse that he was not at fault for fully understanding and wholly rejecting God's command regarding the fruit...

You see just Adam. I don't. I see the reality of Mark 4:15. The natural man was never meant to understand the matter in any case. 1 Cor. 2:14. And Adam was certainly a "natural man" made subject to the exact conditions that Paul stipulates in 1 Cor. 15:42-46, where Paul defines the condition that Adam was put into. Sown in weakness, corruption and dishonor. That is the state, again, to this day, of all natural mankind.

but rather placed the blame on Eve, who immediately blamed the serpent. An excuse that God rejected outright.

There is no question whatsoever of Satan's involvement.

Genesis 3:14
And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

What people don't see is that the serpent went out of the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, in the form of indwelling sin, that was, as Paul shows us, NO MORE I. Romans 7:17-21.

 

[handy]

One quick point and then I truly do have to get other things done in my life today. Sheesh... I am now remembering why I took a "break" from this forum for awhile. I wind up spending far too much time on my pc. 2

That "quick point" though refers to this:

I wasn't saying we wouldn't be "perfected." I don't think that equates to us being God The Father Almighty though. [\quote]

No one has said that being perfected means that we will be equated to being God the Father. I find it rather strange that you even make the comment as we had already hashed that point out before. Please... let's not make statements like this, it confuses the dialog.... or at least, it confuses me! 2

As for the rest.... Like I say, I really need to tear myself away and get some things done as we are going to be entertaining guests later. If one of the reasons why I took a break from the forum was that I get too caught up in the discussions, one of the reasons I've enjoyed being back is how discussions like these truly stretch what I know and... more importantly... what I "think" I know! I'll pick up the discussion again when I get the time!

 

[Mustard Socks]

If your premise is that we will always be in need of God's mercy, for all eternity, then I'd like to see some scriptures to back that up.
In eternity, the "first things have passed away." So, while we will be forever in a state of mercy, I don't see us in a need for mercy.

Give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because His mercy endureth forever. Let Israel now say, that His mercy endureth forever. Let the house of Aaron now say, that His mercy endureth forever. Let them now that fear the LORD say, that His mercy endureth forever.” Psalm 118