How about taking Christ OUT of Christmas?

[theothertexasrich]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

There is a fairly significant movement to 'keep Christ in Christmas,' which attempts to counter the trend toward the secularization of Christmas. 'Happy Holidays' and not 'Merry Christmas', for example.

But why is this important/worthwhile?
- Christmas is not a biblical holy day.
- It is mixed with some pagan rituals (at least that's what I read).
- The way we celebrate it (as a society and generally as Christians as well) really does not reflect what
it is supposed to be (the anniversary of the birth of Christ).
- The celebration of it or lack thereof does not affect our salvation, does it?

Sometimes I feel that doggedly trying to keep the Christ/Christmas connection alive does us more harm than good. I wonder if it wouldn't be more worthwhile to let Christmas go, and focus more on Christ.

What say you?

 

[follower of Christ]

meh...Im not into holidays or birthdays much anyway. Im one of those 'all days are the same' types, so it doesnt really matter to me either way.

 

[LostSoul]

Jesus is the only reason I celebrate Christmas. It is not about Santa...the tree....the lights...or the decorations. Every year my husband and I read the biblical passages in reference to Jesus' birth. Yes, while it is likely very much true Jesus was born nowhere near the winter....if we were to take every holiday that had Pagan origins or even remotely questionable ones, we should likely not celebrate them at all either let alone say anything for fear of upseting someone. Then....not everyone will agree with me here, but God or Jesus are becoming rather offensive names in which to use in form of the public eye.

Christ in Christmas is but one of many growing debates. Need we forget.....'In God We Trust' is still rather open to contraversy. If we roll over on Christ in Christmas....is that going to be the next one seeing as our own president of the U.S. of A. believes we are not a Christian Nation?

Not that I am saying anyone who feels the Christ in Christmas being removed is wrong or a bad person for believing such...I am merely asking...if we do that....what is to stop us from doing the same with other things so as to spare others feelings?

 

[GojuBrian]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

There is a fairly significant movement to 'keep Christ in Christmas,' which attempts to counter the trend toward the secularization of Christmas. 'Happy Holidays' and not 'Merry Christmas', for example.

But why is this important/worthwhile?
- Christmas is not a biblical holy day.
- It is mixed with some pagan rituals (at least that's what I read).
- The way we celebrate it (as a society and generally as Christians as well) really does not reflect what
it is supposed to be (the anniversary of the birth of Christ).
- The celebration of it or lack thereof does not affect our salvation, does it?

Sometimes I feel that doggedly trying to keep the Christ/Christmas connection alive does us more harm than good. I wonder if it wouldn't be more worthwhile to let Christmas go, and focus more on Christ.

What say you?

Not me. I'm in the fight for life. ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

Jesus is the only reason I celebrate Christmas. It is not about Santa...the tree....the lights...or the decorations. Every year my husband and I read the biblical passages in reference to Jesus' birth. Yes, while it is likely very much true Jesus was born nowhere near the winter....if we were to take every holiday that had Pagan origins or even remotely questionable ones, we should likely not celebrate them at all either let alone say anything for fear of upseting someone. Then....not everyone will agree with me here, but God or Jesus are becoming rather offensive names in which to use in form of the public eye.

Christ in Christmas is but one of many growing debates. Need we forget.....'In God We Trust' is still rather open to contraversy. If we roll over on Christ in Christmas....is that going to be the next one seeing as our own president of the U.S. of A. believes we are not a Christian Nation?

Not that I am saying anyone who feels the Christ in Christmas being removed is wrong or a bad person for believing such...I am merely asking...if we do that....what is to stop us from doing the same with other things so as to spare others feelings?

I think all the commercialism has really destroyed the whole season for me.
If it was just about Christs birth and not all the gifts and trees and stuff I think I could get into it.
Ive tried since I was a teenager to have just one Christmas where no one would buy me anything. I turned 44 in October and in all those years not once would everyone just agree to not get me anything...so I just gave up.
Christmas is just one more day for me anymore. One more worldly day with worldly intent of buying as much as we can or cannot afford to buy.
Whats the point, I guess..you know ?
I feel like once Christmas is finally over for the year I can get back to thinking about Christ again instead of all that crap I have to buy and everyone has to buy me.

I know...Im Scrooge

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

There is a fairly significant movement to 'keep Christ in Christmas,' which attempts to counter the trend toward the secularization of Christmas. 'Happy Holidays' and not 'Merry Christmas', for example.

But why is this important/worthwhile?
- Christmas is not a biblical holy day.
- It is mixed with some pagan rituals (at least that's what I read).
- The way we celebrate it (as a society and generally as Christians as well) really does not reflect what
it is supposed to be (the anniversary of the birth of Christ).
- The celebration of it or lack thereof does not affect our salvation, does it?

Sometimes I feel that doggedly trying to keep the Christ/Christmas connection alive does us more harm than good. I wonder if it wouldn't be more worthwhile to let Christmas go, and focus more on Christ.

What say you?

I agree with you and I think that while it seems a small issue it reveals alot of bigger problems.

Firstly, it is not a christian holiday in truth which is proved by history, but it is also proved by many other things. a) if it was truley about the Lord, then the WORLD which hates the Lord would hate the holiday and also and not be so into celebrating it under any name, but since it was originally the worlds holiday, they are all for it. b) the " spirit of christmas" throughout history has a VERY differnt name for itself than what the commerical world tries to make it into today. It has always been known as a spirit of drunkeness and revelrie(sp) so much so that the whole holiday was known for its trouble and it was ILLEGAL in this country. we SEE and experience today the real spirit of christmas but since it is not what the tv pretends it is everyone ignores it. The ways we see it is in the greed, selfishness, pushiness, pride, showmanship, depressions,suicides, rudeness etc... c) Why are christians trying to HARD to FORCE the world to be OK with CHRIST mas when this is not what Jesus taught us to do.

Even if it was christian which it isnt, Why would we force and expect the WORLD to incline to our will for this and many other things when the RIGHT way for things to be, is US being HATED by the world for HIS NAMES SAKE, just like HE was HATED.- The fact that we are not hated more (and when we are we are hated for the wrong reasons) shows the total compromise and hypocracy and lack of being seperate from the world that the church as a whole is today.

 

[sheshisown]

:waving

Here is a really good study done by Don Stewart on BlueletterBile.org ~ regarding whether or not Decemeber 25th could actually be the birth of Christ...

Not only is the exact year of Christ's birth a matter of debate, the exact date of the birth of Jesus is also something that is debated. In the western world, December 25th is the date set aside to celebrate the birth of Jesus. The early church in the West seems to have celebrated the birth of Christ on December 25th while the church in the East observed January 6th. However both of these practices did not begin until A.D. 300— much too late to be precise as to the exact date of Christ's birth.

The Birth Of Christ Was Substituted For A Pagan Festival
During that time the Romans celebrated the Saturnalia festival on December 25th. This marked the date of the winter solstice—the time when the sun would turn northward again. The feast was called Sol Invictus, the "Unconquerable Sun." The Christians at that time wanted to replace the pagan festivals with Christian festivals. Since the phrase "Son of Righteousness" was a common designation for Jesus, it seemed natural to celebrate this date as the birth of the Son of Righteousness rather than celebrating the Unconquerable Sun in the sky. Therefore the selection of December 25th as the date of the birth of Christ was probably a matter of substitution of the Christian festival for a pagan festival.

The Exact Date Is Unknown

The exact date of Jesus' birth is not stated in the New Testament. It is most commonly believed that Jesus was born sometime during either the fall or winter with mid-winter being a popular view. Thus December 25th could have been the exact date when Jesus was born, but there is simply not enough evidence to be certain. In the ancient world there was no universal system of chronology so precision as to when Jesus was born seems to be impossible.

What About The Flocks Outside In Winter?

One objection to the date of December 25th is that the shepherds are tending their flocks by night when the announcement comes of the birth of Christ. It is argued that it would be too cold for them to have their flocks outside in the winter. Therefore it must have been some other time of year. However, this often-used argument does not hold much weight. There is evidence both ancient and modern that flocks stayed outside year round.

There Is Evidence That Flocks Were Outside All Year Round

There is a passage in the Jewish Mishnah [Shekalim 7:4] that stated that some sheep were kept outside of the fields of Bethlehem all year round. These sheep were to be used for sacrifice in the temple in Jerusalem. Therefore it is possible that the birth of Jesus could have come on any day of the year.

There Is Modern Evidence Of Flocks Outside In Winter

Shepherds in the Bethlehem area, to this very day, keep their flocks out at night during all times of the year. Anyone visiting Bethlehem around Christmas time can still see the sheep outside with the shepherds.

The Birth Of Christ Could Have Been In Winter

It would, therefore, not be impossible for the birth of Jesus to have occurred during the winter season. Based upon the present evidence, a mid-January in 2 B.C. is a preferred date for the birth of Jesus. However this is by no means certain. http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=195


Since the truth is WE DO NOT KNOW whether we celebrate Christ's actual bitrth or not~ of what use is it to DISMISS the single day in which we (Christians) have celebrated His birth for centuries, simply because the secular world NO LONGER LIKES it?

We ALL are aware that the "fight" we Christians are waging has NOTHING to do with our "will being forced on the world". But rather the world FORCING its new ungodly views of Christmas on the way in which we <and all the world with us> have historically celebrated Christmas.

What may I ask, is separation FROM the world, unless we separate ourselves from secualization of Christ's birth? A Christian is NOT living "out of the world" separted from all it is... But rather lives "in the world" while at the same time ... like a salmon does... swims or LIVES against the FLOW of every tendency of the world in which he or she lives toward ungodliness.

I say~ ON with the stand to KEEP Christ in Christmas~ that it will not become the evil thing <just yet> that all the world desires it to be. We who still love our Lord and are amazed that He choose to be born into this dark world to rescue us... are still it's LIGHT to salvation. :heart

Many people still come to church during this season, and come to know Jesus as Savior and Lord during its acknowledgement of His birth! Keep Christ ever in Christmas... He FULLY is the reason for a WHOLE season in America ~once each year! Praise our God!

sheshisown~

 

[Vic C.]

Off Topic

Hi Bonnie and all,

I believe the Bible is clear on the time of year He was born once we put the prophecy and pieces in Luke 1 in their proper place. :His birth was right around the Hebrew fall observances.

 

[turnorburn]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

There is a fairly significant movement to 'keep Christ in Christmas,' which attempts to counter the trend toward the secularization of Christmas. 'Happy Holidays' and not 'Merry Christmas', for example.

But why is this important/worthwhile?
- Christmas is not a biblical holy day.
- It is mixed with some pagan rituals (at least that's what I read).
- The way we celebrate it (as a society and generally as Christians as well) really does not reflect what
it is supposed to be (the anniversary of the birth of Christ).
- The celebration of it or lack thereof does not affect our salvation, does it?

Sometimes I feel that doggedly trying to keep the Christ/Christmas connection alive does us more harm than good. I wonder if it wouldn't be more worthwhile to let Christmas go, and focus more on Christ.

What say you?

Me thinks your spot on brother, just watch your back when you put Santa down.
Its a pagan holiday always has been even in the old Testament they had examples
of cutting trees down the decorating them in honor of their gods..

Jeremiah 10: 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good..

 

[JohnEboy1983]

History
It was in the early part of the fourth centruy, Christians in Rome began to celebrate the birth of Christ. The term "Christ's Mass" did not come into play untill the middle ages though. In early centuries, Christians weere much more likely to celebrate the day of a persons death than the persons birthday. Very early in its history the church had an annual observance of the death of Christ and also honored many of the early martyrs on the day of their death. Before the fourth century, churches in the East observed Epiphany, the manifestation of God to the world. celebrating Christ's baptism, his birth and the visit of the magi.

So many Christians practiced and celebrated the birth of Christ that it spread very wide and fast by the end of the century. No evidence really supports an exact date on the birth of Christ, so you may be wondering why December 25th than? Right? Well throughout the Roman Empire, many festivals were held because of the winter solstice. In Rome, they had a big feast of the unconquerable sun celebrating the return of the sun. When Christianity became the religion of the empire, the church either had to stop the festivals of change them. So the Christians in Rome though it would be an appropriate time to celebrate Christ's birth. The festival of the Sun, became the festival of the "Son". After all, the pagans worshipped the Sun, but we worship "the one" who created the Sun. So I will continue to worship Christ and keep him in rememberance on Christmas as well as everyday. I see no need to take Christ out of Mas. Its one more day you can be pumped up about celebrating Jesus.

Some of you may say well you are just changing a Pagan holiday into something Christ, thats wrong!! Well how many of you here are musicians and once played for the Devil, but now use those instruments for playing music for God. Or how many of you used to have gifts you used for evil, but now use those gifts for God. So I say there is no harm in it.

 

[sheshisown]

*Merry Christmas*
Vic~ and JohnEboy~ and Gojubrian ~ and Lostlamb! AND a VERY Merry Christmas to you all~ heartily and happily I say! :heart

So~ Vic... would that mean in September then, since Rosh Hashanah can start as early as the 5th of September? Or is there a more specific date we can derive from Luke? Bonnie~

 

[Joe Luna]

Let's just celebrate everyday as His. That would be better.
I think Christmas nationally acts as a capital campaign for retailers, losing it's true meaning.
Let's keep it focused on Christ and lose the "Happy Holidays" greetings eh.

How else will others get the message? In the end, there is a very important decision that must be made in their lives. It should be echoed as much as possible.

 

[Vic C.]

Off topic, a bit.

*Merry Christmas*
Vic~ and JohnEboy~ and Gojubrian ~ and Lostlamb! AND a VERY Merry Christmas to you all~ heartily and happily I say! :heart

So~ Vic... would that mean in September then, since Rosh Hashanah can start as early as the 5th of September? Or is there a more specific date we can derive from Luke? Bonnie~

Hello again Bonnie! Praise His birth, whenever it was.

This is my condensed version.

I'm a firm believer that the most important events in the NT center around Jewish feasts. You figure out from Luke that Zacharias served as a priest at the Temple. We figure out his lineage and look at
1 Chronicles 23 to figure out when he would have served. Out of the couple of possibilities, we can figure out aprox. when Elizabeth may have conceived.

We know when Mary went to visit Elizabeth, Both were already pregnant; Elizabeth, 6 months in and Mary just finding out. I believe the most likely time for John the Baptist to be born would be around Passover, with him being a "type" of Elijah. Add six months and I believe we have THE BIRTH!

I believe it to be around late Sept/early Oct., maybe between Yom Kippur and The Feast of Tabernacles. That makes sense to me, considering the significance of The Feast and taking into account John 1, specifically John 1:14 (note, some translations use the word "tabernacled" instead of "dwelt")

About the Feast of Tabernacles:

The Feast of Tabernacles was the final and most important holiday of the year. The importance of this festival is indicated by the statement, “This is to be a lasting ordinance.†The divine pronouncement, “I am the Lord your God,†concludes this section on the holidays of the seventh month. The Feast of Tabernacles begins five days after Yom Kippur on the fifteenth of Tishri (September or October). It is a drastic change from one of the most solemn holidays in our year to one of the most joyous. The word Sukkoth means “booths,†and refers to the temporary dwellings that Jews are commanded to live in during this holiday, just as the Jews did in the wilderness. The Feast of Tabernacles lasts for seven days and ends on the twenty-first day (3x7) of the Hebrew month of Tishri, which is Israel’s seventh month.

This holiday has a dual significance: historical and agricultural (just as Passover and Pentecost). Historically, it was to be kept in remembrance of the dwelling in tents in the wilderness for the forty-year period during which the children of Israel were wandering in the desert.

It is expounded in Leviticus 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

http://biblicalholidays.com/tabernacles.htm

Our Savior came into this world and lived out has earliest days in much the same way; in a cave or barn... or maybe even a tent. ;)

Joy To The World!

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

Jesus is the only reason I celebrate Christmas. It is not about Santa...the tree....the lights...or the decorations. Every year my husband and I read the biblical passages in reference to Jesus' birth. Yes, while it is likely very much true Jesus was born nowhere near the winter....if we were to take every holiday that had Pagan origins or even remotely questionable ones, we should likely not celebrate them at all either let alone say anything for fear of upseting someone. Then....not everyone will agree with me here, but God or Jesus are becoming rather offensive names in which to use in form of the public eye.

Christ in Christmas is but one of many growing debates. Need we forget.....'In God We Trust' is still rather open to contraversy. If we roll over on Christ in Christmas....is that going to be the next one seeing as our own president of the U.S. of A. believes we are not a Christian Nation?

Not that I am saying anyone who feels the Christ in Christmas being removed is wrong or a bad person for believing such...I am merely asking...if we do that....what is to stop us from doing the same with other things so as to spare others feelings?

So I assume you don't celebrate Valentine's Day or anyone's birthdays either.

Seems to me that if you're only celebrating Christ's birth then you'd do so on the historically accurate (as far as we can tell) April 12th. The fact that you celebrate on the pagan day indicates that you like something else about Dec. 25th.....

By the way, the US isn't a Christian nation in any way shape or form. The founding fathers boycotted Europe to escape religious persecution, as a result the US is an entirely secular state (Secular means impartial to religion; it says nothing about it). No where in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence or the Pledge of Allegiance does it say ANYTHING about Christianity.

Furthermore, the Constitution calls for freedom FROM religion in the 1st amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion", and prove their secular intent of this clause in the letters of the founding fathers (Jefferson in particular). The Treaty of Tripoli letter even says "The United States is by no means founded on the Christian religion"

The US is a secular nation where you're free to believe whatever you want. If it became a theocracy like Iran, Israel and North Korea then who's Christianity would it conform to? There are over 35,000 different denominations.

In order for freedom of religion to exist there MUST be freedom from religion.

 

[Vic C.]

#1- April 12 has no historical or Biblical accuracy to it. John the Baptist was to prepare the way for the Lord, just as prophecy tells us Esaias {Elijah) would do for the Messiah. History and tradition show us Elijah is expected at the time of Passover. Both Jesus and John cannot be born the same time of year; they were six months apart in birth.

But I digress...

#2- I do not want to turn this into a "separation clause" debate either, so lets get back to the toic.

Thanks.

 

[ChattyMute]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

There is a fairly significant movement to 'keep Christ in Christmas,' which attempts to counter the trend toward the secularization of Christmas. 'Happy Holidays' and not 'Merry Christmas', for example.

But why is this important/worthwhile?
- Christmas is not a biblical holy day.
- It is mixed with some pagan rituals (at least that's what I read).
- The way we celebrate it (as a society and generally as Christians as well) really does not reflect what
it is supposed to be (the anniversary of the birth of Christ).
- The celebration of it or lack thereof does not affect our salvation, does it?

Sometimes I feel that doggedly trying to keep the Christ/Christmas connection alive does us more harm than good. I wonder if it wouldn't be more worthwhile to let Christmas go, and focus more on Christ.

What say you?

Or we, as a society, can go back to calling it Yule, which is what it really is.
Then take Christmas and make it purely about your religion, but without ripping off Pagan traditions.
That would be the complicated way.

You could also take the simple route, realize Christmas is not just about Christ (and you don't have to be Christian to celebrate the faith), and keep calling it Christmas. It can be about Christ if you make it that way, but that is not how it is widely celebrated.

 

[LostSoul]

Seems to me that if you're only celebrating Christ's birth then you'd do so on the historically accurate (as far as we can tell) April 12th. The fact that you celebrate on the pagan day indicates that you like something else about Dec. 25th.....

By the way, the US isn't a Christian nation in any way shape or form. The founding fathers boycotted Europe to escape religious persecution, as a result the US is an entirely secular state (Secular means impartial to religion; it says nothing about it). No where in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence or the Pledge of Allegiance does it say ANYTHING about Christianity.

Furthermore, the Constitution calls for freedom FROM religion in the 1st amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion", and prove their secular intent of this clause in the letters of the founding fathers (Jefferson in particular). The Treaty of Tripoli letter even says "The United States is by no means founded on the Christian religion"

The US is a secular nation where you're free to believe whatever you want. If it became a theocracy like Iran, Israel and North Korea then who's Christianity would it conform to? There are over 35,000 different denominations.

In order for freedom of religion to exist there MUST be freedom from religion.

Your assumptions of me are false...it is sad that I cannot seem to post without being attacked. As I said in my original post I did not post my views with the intent to tell anyone that had an oposing view to my own that they are or were wrong. I just merely shared a touch of what I feel and believe in my heart in regards of Christmas. Truth be told...think a couple of the other members here really put it best into words when one or more of them said we should celebrate Jesus every day.

As to the question of it being right or not for me to partake in Christmas....I will have to lay that before God...and hope that if it is wrong He will speak to my heart on the matter.

 

[Vic C.]

... Or we, as a society, can go back to calling it Yule, which is what it really is.
Then take Christmas and make it purely about your religion, but without ripping off Pagan traditions.
That would be the complicated way.

You could also take the simple route, realize Christmas is not just about Christ (and you don't have to be Christian to celebrate the faith), and keep calling it Christmas. It can be about Christ if you make it that way, but that is not how it is widely celebrated.

You see, many Christians just do not want to compromise in that fashion. Some don't mind the traditions and want to keep them BUT some would like to go back to basics and forgo all the commercialism and reclaim that which was once a Christian celebration. The secular world already has New Years. Personally, because it's name IS Christmas, I find it somewhat hypocritical that nonbelievers also want to celebrate... but celebrate what?

Some would just say, "Take anything related to Christianity out of it and have your pagan Yule celebration". :bigfrown Oh, change the name too.

 

[ChattyMute]

... Or we, as a society, can go back to calling it Yule, which is what it really is.
Then take Christmas and make it purely about your religion, but without ripping off Pagan traditions.
That would be the complicated way.

You could also take the simple route, realize Christmas is not just about Christ (and you don't have to be Christian to celebrate the faith), and keep calling it Christmas. It can be about Christ if you make it that way, but that is not how it is widely celebrated.

You see, many Christians just do not want to compromise in that fashion. Some don't mind the traditions and want to keep them BUT some would like to go back to basics and forgo all the commercialism and reclaim that which was once a Christian celebration. The secular world already has New Years. Personally, because it's name IS Christmas, I find it somewhat hypocritical that nonbelievers also want to celebrate... but celebrate what?

Some would just say, "Take anything related to Christianity out of it and have your pagan Yule celebration". :bigfrown Oh, change the name too.

Isn't that last part what I said, but rearranged in a different way..?

We do. It is the Christian faith that has plagiarized the ideas of Yule...
I do celebrate Yule. I recognize that. However, many people don't know what Yule is (at least people I have met), so I remain calling it Christmas for now.

but celebrate what?
The act of giving. Having time to spend with your family. It's really not that hard to figure out.

 

[follower of Christ]

There are over 35,000 different denominations.

ugh...I always love to hear this absurd exaggeration.
Differences of opinion about wedding rings and other menial irrelevance doesnt make a group a different denomination, friend.
There are probably far less than 100 denominations and when counting only differences on the absolute essentials of the faith Id bet there are FAR less than that.