How about taking Christ OUT of Christmas?

[westtexas]

There is a fairly significant movement to 'keep Christ in Christmas,' which attempts to counter the trend toward the secularization of Christmas. 'Happy Holidays' and not 'Merry Christmas', for example.
But why is this important/worthwhile?

In my opinion the problem goes much deeper than if we fight to keep Christ in Christmas or not. Over the last few years ANYTHING which even remotely resembles a love for our Lord Jesus Christ is attacked. Rich, you are from Texas as I am-- it wasn't that many years ago in Texas when we said prayers before our football games--no more, we might offend someone. It wasn't many years ago when our kids had Bible study at lunch if they cared to go--no more, we might offend someone. Our high school Christmas band concert which was held just yesterday, for the first time ever was called our winter festival concert--we might offend someone.
The world wants to do away with any reference of our Lord Jesus Christ. I'm sure that Christians from other parts of this country can give many other instances similar to the above. We as Christians need to fight as hard to keep these freedoms as those who care to take them away do, we are losing them rapidly.
Sorry for the rant, just giving my opinion, Westtexas

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

i am just not sure where it is scriptural to " fight"(that would be picketing,boycotting,trying to pass laws arguing with the world etc.. all of which are the strivings of our flesh and not warfare in the Spirit) to keep things about the Lord Jesus in the world?

I mean we are told that they are suppose to hate us. We know that In Jesus day, He and the apostles did not go about Rome trying to get the world to let us do these things in public without them being mad. They were not trying to make the world accomidate them at all. If they wanted to pray or to preach in the name of Jesus they did so no matter what the law was because that is our one command is to do all things in the name of Jesus by faith. They didnt go and try to use the power of their flesh or their influence or spending dollars to try to make the world accept it, they did what they were called to do and they were THANKFUL to take whatever came to them of hate or persecution because of it.

I think we should be questioning in this country WHY they dont hate us more? WHY arent we as a whole body being more widely persecuted?

Why do we think that we should have things OUR way in society when societies are based on the WORLD culture which we are suppose to be nothing like.

Trying to get the world to acclimate to what we want to do is a striving of flesh, throwing around the power of numbers of flesh or dollars of christians instead of faith towards God. Somewhere we have forgotten they arent to be like us and we arent to be like them.- We are not to see this country or state, or world as our home or " our country" we are to be like strangers, forgeingers, pilgrims here. Even abraham remained this way IN THE PROMISED LAND GOD GAVE HIM AMEN because He was looking for the HEAVENLY city! What an awesome example.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

[quote="Sir Pwn4lot":30f39vkx] There are over 35,000 different denominations.

ugh...I always love to hear this absurd exaggeration.
Differences of opinion about wedding rings and other menial irrelevance doesnt make a group a different denomination, friend.
There are probably far less than 100 denominations and when counting only differences on the absolute essentials of the faith Id bet there are FAR less than that.[/quote:30f39vkx]

Sorry I just heard that a while back and didn't bother to look it up because it's not important to my argument. Even if you grant that God exists, even if you grant that some form of Christianity exists, you still have 1/100 odds then lol.

Oh well, this wasn't really my point anyway, thanks for correcting me.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

There is a fairly significant movement to 'keep Christ in Christmas,' which attempts to counter the trend toward the secularization of Christmas. 'Happy Holidays' and not 'Merry Christmas', for example.

But why is this important/worthwhile?
- Christmas is not a biblical holy day.
- It is mixed with some pagan rituals (at least that's what I read).
- The way we celebrate it (as a society and generally as Christians as well) really does not reflect what
it is supposed to be (the anniversary of the birth of Christ).
- The celebration of it or lack thereof does not affect our salvation, does it?

Sometimes I feel that doggedly trying to keep the Christ/Christmas connection alive does us more harm than good. I wonder if it wouldn't be more worthwhile to let Christmas go, and focus more on Christ.

What say you?

Well, Rich, you made some good points and I am certain you won't find a shortage of people here, including myself, that supports what you say. It is indeed a pagan, solstice festival "with Christ's name stamped on it" to make it Christian. After all, if we can't beat the pagans, join them by Christianizing the day.

That being said, your points are a religious belief. I am dead set against any restriction on saying "Merry Christmas". In this case, that's a political issue, free speech and freedom to worship. In other words, I may not like Christmas as a pagan holiday, but as an American doggone it I will fight for the next guy's right to celebrate it. The plan to shut everyone else up from saying "Merry Christmas" is merely political correctness gone amok, and is the antithesis of constitutional thinking.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

I may not like Christmas as a pagan holiday, but as an American doggone it I will fight for the next guy's right to celebrate it.

Allowing people to celebrate it and allowing the government to endorse it are two very different things.

But no, I don't have a problem with it being a public holiday, mainly because it's a religious holiday for loads of different religions and has lost all religious meaning.

It's a secular holiday, what other people slap on top is their business.

 

[tim-from-pa]

[quote="tim_from_pa":3sml22aj]I may not like Christmas as a pagan holiday, but as an American doggone it I will fight for the next guy's right to celebrate it.

Allowing people to celebrate it and allowing the government to endorse it are two very different things.

[/quote:3sml22aj]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said that government should endorse it. However, I have no problems with someone in government saying "Merry Christmas" but ironically that has been misconstrued to mean government endorsement! :crazy

 

[sheshisown]

Hi Vic~9/color]

Vic wrote~

Hello again Bonnie! Praise His birth, whenever it was.

This is my condensed version.

I'm a firm believer that the most important events in the NT center around Jewish feasts.
Me too!

You figure out from Luke that Zacharias served as a priest at the Temple. We figure out his lineage and look at 1 Chronicles 23 to figure out when he would have served. Out of the couple of possibilities, we can figure out aprox. when Elizabeth may have conceived.

We know when Mary went to visit Elizabeth, Both were already pregnant; Elizabeth, 6 months in and Mary just finding out. :yes I believe the most likely time for John the Baptist to be born would be around Passover, with him being a "type" of Elijah. Add six months and I believe we have THE BIRTH!

I believe it to be around late Sept/early Oct., maybe between Yom Kippur and The Feast of Tabernacles. That makes sense to me, considering the significance of The Feast and taking into account John 1, specifically John 1:14 (note, some translations use the word "tabernacled" instead of "dwelt")

And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
Youngs Version...

About the Feast of Tabernacles:


The Feast of Tabernacles was the final and most important holiday of the year. The importance of this festival is indicated by the statement, “This is to be a lasting ordinance.†The divine pronouncement, “I am the Lord your God,†concludes this section on the holidays of the seventh month. The Feast of Tabernacles begins five days after Yom Kippur on the fifteenth of Tishri (September or October). It is a drastic change from one of the most solemn holidays in our year to one of the most joyous. :D
The word Sukkoth means “booths,†and refers to the temporary dwellings that Jews are commanded to live in during this holiday, just as the Jews did in the wilderness. The Feast of Tabernacles lasts for seven days and ends on the twenty-first day (3x7) of the Hebrew month of Tishri, which is Israel’s seventh month.

This holiday has a dual significance: historical and agricultural (just as Passover and Pentecost). Historically, it was to be kept in remembrance of the dwelling in tents in the wilderness for the forty-year period during which the children of Israel were wandering in the desert.

It is expounded in Leviticus 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.http://biblicalholidays.com/tabernacles.htm

Our Savior came into this world and lived out has earliest days in much the same way; in a cave or barn... or maybe even a tent.
I like the way your mind thinks, brother...
Joy To The World!

Thank you for these insights into THIS SPECIAL SEASON of HIS BIRTH!

Bonnie~

 

[sheshisown]

Has anyone here ever thought of how many wonderful traditions that have been given to Christ and His people to make Christmas beautiful?

How about the true story of the Candy Cane, and the Christian who invented this candy to tell the gospel to children? Anybody know it? I will move on to the next story and give you all the first shot at telling it!

Here is the story of the Christmas Wreath~

Every Christmas wreath is more than a decoration...
it's a special reminder of Jesus, the reason for our celebration.

The circle of the Christmas wreath, is a never~ending ring,
a reminder of the Eternal Love of our Lord and King.

The Christmas wreath is a sign of welcome, inviting ALL to enter in...
a reminder of Christ's invitation for ALL to come to Him.

The middle of a Christmas wreath is a bare and empty space,
a reminder of what life would be, without His love and grace!

So each time you see a Christmas wreath, hanging from a door,
may your heart rejoice in the One that Christmas is truly for!

:heart

 

[GojuBrian]

Thankyou sheshisown!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said that government should endorse it. However, I have no problems with someone in government saying "Merry Christmas" but ironically that has been misconstrued to mean government endorsement! :crazy

I'm not saying they should endorse it, but I don't have a problem if they do. The whole idea of public holidays is to have a break and celebrate, as evidenced by Independence Day, President's Day, etc.

It's a day that our society has decided to get together and share on, which isn't a religious motivation. It was a Pagan holiday then the Christians adapted it and eventually other religions.

It means what you want it to, which is why I don't consider it a natively religious holiday. If they tried to make a "Worship Day" or something where we by definition sit down and pray to Jesus then obviously I'd be opposed to it (And so would the constitution).

Has anyone here ever thought of how many wonderful traditions that have been given to Christ and His people to make Christmas beautiful?

How about the true story of the Candy Cane, and the Christian who invented this candy to tell the gospel to children? Anybody know it? I will move on to the next story and give you all the first shot at telling it!

Here is the story of the Christmas Wreath~

Every Christmas wreath is more than a decoration...
it's a special reminder of Jesus, the reason for our celebration.

The circle of the Christmas wreath, is a never~ending ring,
a reminder of the Eternal Love of our Lord and King.

The Christmas wreath is a sign of welcome, inviting ALL to enter in...
a reminder of Christ's invitation for ALL to come to Him.

The middle of a Christmas wreath is a bare and empty space,
a reminder of what life would be, without His love and grace!

So each time you see a Christmas wreath, hanging from a door,
may your heart rejoice in the One that Christmas is truly for!

Good for you, I don't have a problem with any of that because candy canes and decorations have lost all religious significance. It's not something people give around to praise Jesus anymore, it's just about sharing and caring

To be honest unless someone told me I never would have known that Christmas was a religious holiday, it's lost all religious connotation. This is why I'm not fussed about it being endorsed by the government.

 

[GojuBrian]

Just because Christmas has lost its significance to you doesn't mean it has to everybody.

I and many others still know and read the Christmas story. Merry Christmas!!

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

Just because Christmas has lost its significance to you doesn't mean it has to everybody.

I and many others still know and read the Christmas story. Merry Christmas!!

Exactly what I mean, I don't have a problem at all with with people assigning Christian, Pagan or other religious significance to the day, it's none of my business lol.

Merry Christmas to you too.

 

[handy]

I agree with you, Sir Pwn4lot. It might be considered rather odd for me, as a Christian to say this, but one of the things I like about Christmas is that anyone and everyone can celebrate it. One can be an atheist, and still have a merry Christmas. One can be of a different religion or no religion at all, and still celebrate Christmas. Sure, Christ most likely isn't at the center of one's celebration if one is agnostic or deist or whatever, but nonetheless, the day can be enjoyed by anyone and everyone who wants to enjoy it. Irregardless of one's faith, one's political persuasion, one's beliefs, Christmas is a "gift" from the Church (this isn't a biblical holiday, it's a Church day) that all can take part in. Joy to the world, indeed!!!!

As for me, as a Christian, I ain't taking Christ out of ANYTHING, including Christmas. :christmas

 

[tim-from-pa]

[quote="tim_from_pa":iw5nsshf]I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said that government should endorse it. However, I have no problems with someone in government saying "Merry Christmas" but ironically that has been misconstrued to mean government endorsement! :crazy

I'm not saying they should endorse it, but I don't have a problem if they do. The whole idea of public holidays is to have a break and celebrate, as evidenced by Independence Day, President's Day, etc.

It's a day that our society has decided to get together and share on, which isn't a religious motivation. It was a Pagan holiday then the Christians adapted it and eventually other religions.

It means what you want it to, which is why I don't consider it a natively religious holiday. If they tried to make a "Worship Day" or something where we by definition sit down and pray to Jesus then obviously I'd be opposed to it (And so would the constitution).

[/quote:iw5nsshf]

Sorry. I misunderstood you. When you said endorse, I thought you meant a state religion. You just meant celebrate it. I agree with your total post above. It was just a confusion relating to semantics on my part.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

I agree with you, Sir Pwn4lot. It might be considered rather odd for me, as a Christian to say this, but one of the things I like about Christmas is that anyone and everyone can celebrate it. One can be an atheist, and still have a merry Christmas. One can be of a different religion or no religion at all, and still celebrate Christmas. Sure, Christ most likely isn't at the center of one's celebration if one is agnostic or deist or whatever, but nonetheless, the day can be enjoyed by anyone and everyone who wants to enjoy it. Irregardless of one's faith, one's political persuasion, one's beliefs, Christmas is a "gift" from the Church (this isn't a biblical holiday, it's a Church day) that all can take part in. Joy to the world, indeed!!!!

As for me, as a Christian, I ain't taking Christ out of ANYTHING, including Christmas. :christmas

Hehe, well good luck with that

[quote="Sir Pwn4lot":258eyrun][quote="tim_from_pa":258eyrun]I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said that government should endorse it. However, I have no problems with someone in government saying "Merry Christmas" but ironically that has been misconstrued to mean government endorsement! :crazy

I'm not saying they should endorse it, but I don't have a problem if they do. The whole idea of public holidays is to have a break and celebrate, as evidenced by Independence Day, President's Day, etc.

It's a day that our society has decided to get together and share on, which isn't a religious motivation. It was a Pagan holiday then the Christians adapted it and eventually other religions.

It means what you want it to, which is why I don't consider it a natively religious holiday. If they tried to make a "Worship Day" or something where we by definition sit down and pray to Jesus then obviously I'd be opposed to it (And so would the constitution).

[/quote:258eyrun]

Sorry. I misunderstood you. When you said endorse, I thought you meant a state religion. You just meant celebrate it. I agree with your total post above. It was just a confusion relating to semantics on my part.[/quote:258eyrun]

No hard feelings.

 

[JoJo]

As for me, as a Christian, I ain't taking Christ out of ANYTHING, including Christmas. :christmas

Amen sister!

 

[MMarc]

Although it can be a great time to preach the gospels, Jesus was in fact born at the Biblical feast of Tabernacles.

Ever wonder why the world loves Christmas and Easter yet hates Jesus?

Jesus once said that the world loves it's own. Jesus would have been conceived at around Christmas but He was born of water at Tabernacles.

 

[handy]

As much as I love and will continue to celebrate Christmas, I do wonder how much just plain old anti-Semitism came into play in changing dates and times from clearly Jewish festivals to Roman ones.

 

[jasoncran]

As much as I love and will continue to celebrate Christmas, I do wonder how much just plain old anti-Semitism came into play in changing dates and times from clearly Jewish festivals to Roman ones.

hunnakah, aka the festival of lights in the nt is celebrated when it should be. it has an interesting story, every heard of the maccbean revolution and john hyrcaneus?

 

[Timothy]

I'm not a big fan of christmas, more for reasons other then the topic of discussion. But When you remember Christmas and Christ within it, I would only remind you to remember the whole story. The birth of Jesus is a nice story. But without remembering the rest it's just that, a story. Remember that the power is not in the birth but in the Birth, the living a sinless life, and then dieing on a cross for our sins and resurrecting and thus over coming sin and death. You can't just remember the birth without remembering the Reason God sent his son to earth.

In my opinion far to many Christians forget this during this season. Sometimes it feels almost like something Satan does to get Christians to focus on only a point and negating a great deal of the power the whole story has. Just my .