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Bible Study How Can These Be Reconciled?

st_worm2

st_worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
2024 Supporter
How do you reconcile these various passages/verses?

"The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." ~Exodus 33:11

////////////

17 The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
21 Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
23 “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.” ~Exodus 33

////////////

"In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple." ~Isaiah 6:1

/////////////

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." ~John 1:18

//////////////

"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." ~1 Timothy 6:15-16

//////////// (Edit: Here is one additional verse to consider)

Stephen said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” ~Acts 7:56

//////////// (Edit2: Here is another additional verse to consider and add into the mix above)

“God is spirit” ~John 4:24
​
In the NT, both the Lord Jesus and St. Paul make it clear that no one has seen God (nor can they see Him), but the OT appears to disagree with that. On top of that, the OT also seems to contradict itself (i.e. Exodus 33:11 vs Exodus 33:20).

So again, how can these passages be reconciled with one another?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
Edit3: p.s. - my proposition, that I'd like to either prove or disprove, is this: The physical appearances of God in the OT were all made by God the Son, not by His Father (who is "Spirit" and who "no one has seen").




"These things Isaiah said because he saw
His glory, and he spoke of Him"
John 12:41​
 
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st_worm2 said:
How do you reconcile these various passages/verses?

"The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." ~Exodus 33:11

////////////

17 The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
21 Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
23 “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.” ~Exodus 33

////////////

"In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple." ~Isaiah 6:1

/////////////

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." ~John 1:18

//////////////

"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." ~1 Timothy 6:15-16
​
In the NT, both the Lord Jesus and St. Paul make it clear that no one has seen God (nor can they see Him), but the OT appears to disagree with that. On top of that, the OT also seems to contradict itself (i.e. Exodus 33:11 vs Exodus 33:20).

So again, how can these passages be reconciled with one another?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David




"These things Isaiah said because he saw
His glory, and he spoke of Him"
John 12:41​
Click to expand...

I've pondered this too. I suspect that it may have been the Father who passed in front of Moses. It seems that Moses saw His glory. On the other hand when people saw the Lord face to face it was the Son. That's about the only way I can reconcile those passages.
 
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Hi Brothers, I'll join back in shortly, but I'd like to add one more verse into the mix for your consideration.
Stephen said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” ~Acts 7:56
Click to expand...
 
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civilwarbuff said:
Maybe you could elaborate?
Click to expand...

There is more than one understanding of the Trinity. The one that is held by most Christians is that of the Athanasian Creed. The Nicene Creed was the product of the Nicene Council. The council was formed for the very purpose of defining the nature of the Father and that Son. This understanding of the Trinity is markedly different than that of the Nicene Creed. It is also earlier in date than the Athanasian version. The Nicene Creed represents the understanding of the Trinity up until around the year 400 AD. or so.
 
Hi Butch, I know the Athanasian Creed is far more detailed, but in as concise a manner as possible, what important point(s) do you believe the Athanasian Creed teaches about the Trinity that the Nicene Creed does not?

Thanks :)

In Christ,
David
 
st_worm2 said:
Hi Butch, I know the Athanasian Creed is far more detailed, but in as concise a manner as possible, what important point(s) do you believe the Athanasian Creed teaches about the Trinity that the Nicene Creed does not?

Thanks :)

In Christ,
David
Click to expand...

Hi David,

The Athansian Creed essentially says there is one God that consists of three persons. While this need not be incorrect, most interpret this as one being called God that consists of three persons.
 
Butch5 said:
There is more than one understanding of the Trinity.
Click to expand...
Maybe eat the cow one bite at a time.
The Christian belief of the Trinity is really pretty simple:
There is one God manifested in 3 Persons
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God.
None of Them are each other.
Now, to the best of my knowledge, that is the accepted belief in Christianity.
Your turn.......
 
Butch5 said:
I've pondered this too. I suspect that it may have been the Father who passed in front of Moses. It seems that Moses saw His glory. On the other hand when people saw the Lord face to face it was the Son. That's about the only way I can reconcile those passages.
Click to expand...

I think you may be onto something here, but what do we do with a verses like John 1:18 and 1 Timothy 6:16 then, which clearly teach that "no one has seen God at any time, nor can they"? Seeing God's "backside" is still seeing Him, yes?
 
civilwarbuff said:
Maybe eat the cow one bite at a time.
The Christian belief of the Trinity is really pretty simple:
There is one God manifested in 3 Persons
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God.
None of Them are each other.
Now, to the best of my knowledge, that is the accepted belief in Christianity.
Your turn.......
Click to expand...

I can't really get into to much because apparently its against the rules. If you'd like to discuss it another way I'd be happy to.
 
st_worm2 said:
I think you may be onto something here, but what do we do with a verses like John 1:18 and 1 Timothy 6:16 then, which clearly teach that "no one has seen God at any time, nor can they"? Seeing God's "backside" is still seeing Him, yes?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've wondered about that too. I'm wondering about the Glory that Moses saw. I wonder if the answer isn't there. Maybe the Glory was not actually the Father but rather some kind of image.
 
Here are the two creeds in question so we can discuss them more easily:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. ~Nicene Creed​

/////////////////////////////

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved. ~Athanasian Creed​
 
st_worm2 said:
Here are the two creeds in question so we can discuss them more easily:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. ~Nicene Creed​

/////////////////////////////

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved. ~Athanasian Creed​
Click to expand...

We can't really get into this. I believe it's against the rules.
 
Butch5 said:
Yeah, I've wondered about that too. I'm wondering about the Glory that Moses saw. I wonder if the answer isn't there. Maybe the Glory was not actually the Father but rather some kind of image.
Click to expand...
Moses saw God hinder parts or as I understand it, eh saw his rear only. You gents appear to be debating in error. i.e. I tell you my pillow is as hard as a rock. You go feel the pillow and iis soft to the touch. Context imparts so much meaning. This is why you never seek to debate one verse and Hermeneutics Rule for this goes something like, "No single scripture, small portion of scripture, nor any collection of scriptures can ever be full understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it/them.
 
civilwarbuff said:
But they are both God so why would that matter?
Click to expand...

Hey Brother, I've struggled to understand verses like John 1:18/1 Timothy 6:15-16 in light of all the OT verses that seem to contradict them. We know Jesus is God and we know that many have seen Him, so when He tells us that "no one has seen God at any time", I assume that He is referring to His Father. But then we have verses that clearly tell us that certain men 'have' seen God. So my question is, what do we do about that?

I happened upon John 12:41 again recently, which refers to these verses in the Book of Isaiah:

1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one called out to another and said,
“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory.”
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
5 Then I said,
“Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.” ~Isaiah 6
​
If you read through the passage that John 12:41 is contained in, it's hard to miss the fact that St. John places Jesus/God the Son on the throne there, not God the Father which, if true, finally allows us to reconcile MOST of the verses that seem to contradict one another in this regard (see my OP above).

As a result, I have begun to wonder if every "physical" appearance of God in the OT was actually made by Jesus (in His pre-incarnate state), instead of the Father. This would mean, for instance, that the finger that wrote the Ten Commandments on top of Mt. Sinai is the same finger that drew on the ground before the angry mob in John 8.

But there is also Acts 7:56 to consider, and what it says may end up throwing a "monkey wrench" in my new theory, so if you have any ideas about any of this, they would be greatly appreciated :)

Thanks!

--David

​
 
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th1b.taylor said:
Moses saw God hinder parts or as I understand it, eh saw his rear only. You gents appear to be debating in error. i.e. I tell you my pillow is as hard as a rock. You go feel the pillow and iis soft to the touch. Context imparts so much meaning. This is why you never seek to debate one verse and Hermeneutics Rule for this goes something like, "No single scripture, small portion of scripture, nor any collection of scriptures can ever be full understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it/them.
Click to expand...

Hi Bill, thanks for you input :) I agree that we need to be EXTREMELY careful and that is why I am being cautious/treading lightly rather than just plunging in.

But what do we do with verses like these, how should they be understood?

"The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face" ~Exodus 33:11
God said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” ~Exodus 33:20
Click to expand...
"No one has seen God at any time" ~John 1:18
Stephen said, “Behold, I see .. God" ~Acts 7:56
Click to expand...

How do you reconcile them (or are you saying that we shouldn't even try to do so)?

Thanks!

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - you are right about which body part God allowed Moses to see on top of Mt. Sinai, His "hindquarters" (at least, that's what the Hebrew appears to be saying).
 
Actually, I'd like to add one additional verse to the mix in the OP.
24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” ~John 4
Click to expand...
I'll go edit the OP a second time and add it up there as well.

--David
 
How about we take these verses one at a time and look at them to see if these were a physical view, a vision, or spiritual as being in the 3rd Heaven? I know, that will cover a lot of verses, but I am game.....sounds interesting.
 
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