How Do You Feel About This

[kiwimac]

Abolishing the minimum wage simply means that people at the sharp end of society's stick will starve. The ONLY people it serves are those who can then hire folk at low wages. Civilised societies do not get rid of minimum wages, they tax the rich.

 

[jasoncran]

Abolishing the minimum wage simply means that people at the sharp end of society's stick will starve. The ONLY people it serves are those who can then hire folk at low wages. Civilised societies do not get rid of minimum wages, they tax the rich.

and in your idealistic situation we have illegal immigrants that cant make more then whateever is offered to them.

for the germans it was the turks, the americans the mexicans and the chinese. what good is it if said wages go up then all the prices go up? you dont get anything. i have seen that happened. and the retiress get hit the hardest. that is why i no longer believe it.

tax the rich eh, is that why greeces and the eu are in such trouble? not enough taxation? hmm

 

[handy]

Abolishing the minimum wage simply means that people at the sharp end of society's stick will starve. The ONLY people it serves are those who can then hire folk at low wages. Civilised societies do not get rid of minimum wages, they tax the rich.

The rich are taxed here in America...they overwhelmingly carry the tax load for the entire nation. My husband and I are on the lower middle class side of things and we pay no taxes whatsoever. Even state taxes and fees...we get reimbursed for them in our tax returns. Sales taxes are about it, which in Idaho is 6.25%.

Do you honestly think that the illegals here make minimum wage? Are you kidding me? Why do you think that people hire illegals here...so they can do an end-run around minimum wage laws. Meanwhile, try to support yourself on minimum wage...can't be done. It's a broken system all the way around.

Doesn't seem to have anything to do with the OP though. My thoughts on the OP as far as serving Muslims...here in America, people can do what they want unless it's a clear violation of Civil Rights.

As Christians though, there are only two ways to look at Muslims really...either they are our neighbors, or they are our enemies as whosoever is not for Christ is against Him.

Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Love thy enemy, bless them that curse you.

Neighbor or enemy, we're to love them either way.

It's more than a little hard to foster love and share the Gospel when you're saying, "Get out of here, I don't serve your kind."

 

[Danus]

Abolishing the minimum wage simply means that people at the sharp end of society's stick will starve. The ONLY people it serves are those who can then hire folk at low wages. Civilised societies do not get rid of minimum wages, they tax the rich.

Civilized societies? Since when has any society of man been "civilized" ? Not one. Ever.

Minimum wage is a good and bad thing, economically it solves nothing. If you hire 10 people at $5/hr and the government says you have to pay them $7. Your payroll just went from $16,000 a week to $22,400 a week. What do you do to get your cost back down to profit? You fire one and cut the hours of another down to half. That's reality. You do that to survive.

If your a large publicly traded company you have no choice because your stock holders will not stand for not making a dividend. they will bail. This is how the real world,man's world, this fallen world works as close to civil as we have yet to get it until our Lord comes back.

Try taking an Econ 101 class. It's amassing information on how the free system actually works.

 

[theLords]

Which is one reason I despise most Americans. You institutionalise prejudice and call it personal choice.

I wonder if anyone else realizes the irony of such a statement?

I guess hate is only justified when it's people you dislike, but if another person hates someone you like...well, they are just terrible!

 

[Nick]

Civilized societies? Since when has any society of man been "civilized" ? Not one. Ever.

Minimum wade is a good and bad thing, economically it solves nothing. If you hire 10 people at $5/hr and the government says you have to pay them $7. Your payroll just went from $16,000 a week to $22,400 a week. What do you do to get your cost back down to profit? You fire one and cut the hours of another down to half. That's reality. You do that to survive.

If your a large publicly traded company you have no choice because your stock holders will not stand for not making a dividend. they will bail. This is how the real world,man's world, this fallen world works as close to civil as we have yet to get it until our Lord comes back.

Try taking an Econ 101 class. It's amassing information on how the free system actually works.

Fair point, but we don't want people getting paid $5 an hour either. There needs to be some form of aceptable minimum wage, or pay rate.

To answer your question about the min wage going up...well the business needs to get more efficient and reduce waste etc. encourage employees to be more productive. I know that I would work better with a decent min wage than not. I also know that if there was no min wage, my employer would try and pay us peanuts if they could, which is what no min wage allows.

 

[Nick]

Back on topic though, I don't think a business should be forced to serve everyone, just as customers have a choice as to where they take their business. Anti-discrimination in mind, of course.

Having said that, there is a legal response, and then there is a Christian response. I don't think the example in the OP was a very Christ-like response or witness.

 

[jasoncran]

Fair point, but we don't want people getting paid $5 an hour either. There needs to be some form of aceptable minimum wage, or pay rate.

To answer your question about the min wage going up...well the business needs to get more efficient and reduce waste etc. encourage employees to be more productive. I know that I would work better with a decent min wage than not. I also know that if there was no min wage, my employer would try and pay us peanuts if they could, which is what no min wage allows.

they do that anyway. when i live in louisana that was what they did. here when one works for citrus(exempted) they pay the illegals 4.00 and hour to work.

so would the country want to pay more for food?

 

[Nick]

they do that anyway. when i live in louisana that was what they did. here when one works for citrus(exempted) they pay the illegals 4.00 and hour to work.

so would the country want to pay more for food?

Well of course the "illegals" (whatever that means) would be exempt from min wage.

I think it's a far better system if many people got paid minimum wage even if that means prices rise a little.
If a business is efficient and productive, then they can find other ways of cutting costs and maximising profits without dropping too many employees or raising prices too much.

 

[handy]

Well of course the "illegals" (whatever that means) would be exempt from min wage.

And therein lies the problem and why we struggle with this issue. My brother is a master craftsman...making cabinetry. He can also install flooring, however the cabinetry is what he's really good at and men used to be able to make good money, money to support families, receive benefits and have a good standard of living on the wages they could receive in this field. But, in his area, so many illegals come in and now, with the economy doing so badly, people hire them and pay them pennies on the dollar. My brother can't compete with that. He went from being someone who was set for a decent income and a chance for a fairly decent retirement to working long, long hours at poverty level wages.

Same story with a friend of ours who used to have a very successful landscaping business. Forget being able to support yourself or a family in that field anymore...pretty much everyone will hire the illegals at practically slave wages instead of hiring someone who has to make a decent income to live on, not to mention pay taxes, workman's comp, insurance and all that.

This idea that illegals come to do the jobs that "American's wont do" is bunkum...illegals really undercut the wages in construction work, landscaping and gardening work, lots of areas where men used to be able to support families on.

What's the use of telling employers that they must pay everyone $7.00 an hour, when the employer can just turn around and pay an illegal $2 or $3 bucks an hour?

btw..."illegal" means someone in this country illegally, no work visa, no immigration status so employers can get by hiring them at pennies on the dollar and not pay social security, workman's comp or insurance for them. When we moved we had to put our old home on a permanent foundation (it was a mobile home). We got bids for the job and all the bidders were in the $700-$1000 dollar range for the job. Then, a guy came along with the bid of $350...because he used illegal workers. The sub-contractors bid what they did because they have to figure in their costs for the job...the guy using the illegal workers wouldn't have to pay all the costs and also get by with paying his workers pennies on the dollar.


That's the problem...that's why illegal workers is such an issue in this country...not because all Americans are racist haters...it's because we simply can't afford to live on what illegals live on and we can't compete for the jobs they come in and get.

 

[Danus]

Fair point, but we don't want people getting paid $5 an hour either. There needs to be some form of aceptable minimum wage, or pay rate.

To answer your question about the min wage going up...well the business needs to get more efficient and reduce waste etc. encourage employees to be more productive. I know that I would work better with a decent min wage than not. I also know that if there was no min wage, my employer would try and pay us peanuts if they could, which is what no min wage allows.

There are several groups in this country who are advocating what's termed "Living wage". The living wage is a few bucks more than the min-wage. Their argument is that while the minimum wage is fine for working teens and such, it should be unlawful for companies to pay adults less than $10.00/hr. something like that.

It's a wage standard designed to meet the basic needs of a person in any said society. ie... housing, food, clothing, utilities ect. many state and local municipalities have adopted this policy for Gov workers.

It works for the government, or socially supported institutions and even charities, when paying people because these entities do not produce anything. They do not churn money, but It fails in the free market.

In the free market, the market will always make a natural adjustment for cost of business. Always. It happens naturally. the free market will find more efficient ways and that includes hiring less people, or changing prices, whatever it takes to offset cost will be done.

Most people do not have a grasp of business off the top of their heads, but they do have a natural grasp, and they will exercise complex economic principles naturally despite their own hearts and intentions.

Economics is the study of human behavior. It's not a bunch of business laws or rules. It's how people do things in a free market within any competitive system. It does not apply to socially supported institutions like government, and non-profits, and such. Why? because those types on entities are not competing.

People like to hammer on corporations and big business. I understand that. There are issues of social responsibility that fail in this arena. we need some regulation to make sure lines are not crossed and the chase to make a dollar., But if you want to see where real corruption can be found, look at non-profit institutions. Government, charities and such.

 

[Danus]

btw..."illegal" means someone in this country illegally, no work visa, no immigration status so employers can get by hiring them at pennies on the dollar and not pay social security, workman's comp or insurance for them. When we moved we had to put our old home on a permanent foundation (it was a mobile home). We got bids for the job and all the bidders were in the $700-$1000 dollar range for the job. Then, a guy came along with the bid of $350...because he used illegal workers. The sub-contractors bid what they did because they have to figure in their costs for the job...the guy using the illegal workers wouldn't have to pay all the costs and also get by with paying his workers pennies on the dollar.


That's the problem...that's why illegal workers is such an issue in this country...not because all Americans are racist haters...it's because we simply can't afford to live on what illegals live on and we can't compete for the jobs they come in and get.

And which company did you hire to do the job?

 

[jasoncran]

10.00hr isnt squat here , i make a bit more then that and its not enough. i could quailify for tanf if i had two kids.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Here In Texas (Dallas area), for the most part, it's the Muslim (or a Mexican who may or may not be "legal") who's behind the counter, and the NON-Muslim is the one who's being served. HEY!! Nobody really gives it a second thought.

The only thing the program proved was that there are more Horse's posteriors, than there are horses.

Simple as that.

 

[handy]

And which company did you hire to do the job?

;) We didn't go with the cheapest bid....

 

[Nick]

And therein lies the problem and why we struggle with this issue. My brother is a master craftsman...making cabinetry. He can also install flooring, however the cabinetry is what he's really good at and men used to be able to make good money, money to support families, receive benefits and have a good standard of living on the wages they could receive in this field. But, in his area, so many illegals come in and now, with the economy doing so badly, people hire them and pay them pennies on the dollar. My brother can't compete with that. He went from being someone who was set for a decent income and a chance for a fairly decent retirement to working long, long hours at poverty level wages.

Same story with a friend of ours who used to have a very successful landscaping business. Forget being able to support yourself or a family in that field anymore...pretty much everyone will hire the illegals at practically slave wages instead of hiring someone who has to make a decent income to live on, not to mention pay taxes, workman's comp, insurance and all that.

This idea that illegals come to do the jobs that "American's wont do" is bunkum...illegals really undercut the wages in construction work, landscaping and gardening work, lots of areas where men used to be able to support families on.

What's the use of telling employers that they must pay everyone $7.00 an hour, when the employer can just turn around and pay an illegal $2 or $3 bucks an hour?

btw..."illegal" means someone in this country illegally, no work visa, no immigration status so employers can get by hiring them at pennies on the dollar and not pay social security, workman's comp or insurance for them. When we moved we had to put our old home on a permanent foundation (it was a mobile home). We got bids for the job and all the bidders were in the $700-$1000 dollar range for the job. Then, a guy came along with the bid of $350...because he used illegal workers. The sub-contractors bid what they did because they have to figure in their costs for the job...the guy using the illegal workers wouldn't have to pay all the costs and also get by with paying his workers pennies on the dollar.


That's the problem...that's why illegal workers is such an issue in this country...not because all Americans are racist haters...it's because we simply can't afford to live on what illegals live on and we can't compete for the jobs they come in and get.

Illegal workers are obviously much more of a problem for you guys than they are for us. Being an island, we have pretty good border security, which is much easier to enforce. We certainly have nothing like your Mexico problem. To me, the solution should not be to not have a minimum wage, but rather to clamp down on illegal workers. I"m not saying that's an easy solution, and perhaps it's more of a long-term solution.

I recognise that Australia's situation is a lot different' than America's.

 

[Nick]

There are several groups in this country who are advocating what's termed "Living wage". The living wage is a few bucks more than the min-wage. Their argument is that while the minimum wage is fine for working teens and such, it should be unlawful for companies to pay adults less than $10.00/hr. something like that.

It's a wage standard designed to meet the basic needs of a person in any said society. ie... housing, food, clothing, utilities ect. many state and local municipalities have adopted this policy for Gov workers.

Fair enough.

It works for the government, or socially supported institutions and even charities, when paying people because these entities do not produce anything. They do not churn money, but It fails in the free market.

Can't say I entirely agree here, but I do recognise that it is much harder to do in the free market.

In the free market, the market will always make a natural adjustment for cost of business. Always. It happens naturally. the free market will find more efficient ways and that includes hiring less people, or changing prices, whatever it takes to offset cost will be done.

I don't think they're the only things businesses can do to cut costs and run more efficiently.

Most people do not have a grasp of business off the top of their heads, but they do have a natural grasp, and they will exercise complex economic principles naturally despite their own hearts and intentions.

Agreed.

Economics is the study of human behavior. It's not a bunch of business laws or rules. It's how people do things in a free market within any competitive system. It does not apply to socially supported institutions like government, and non-profits, and such. Why? because those types on entities are not competing.

No worries mate. I studied economics for a couple of years in my senior high school years. Fun times

I disagree that public sector entities do not compete with private sector businesses.

People like to hammer on corporations and big business. I understand that. There are issues of social responsibility that fail in this arena. we need some regulation to make sure lines are not crossed and the chase to make a dollar., But if you want to see where real corruption can be found, look at non-profit institutions. Government, charities and such.

I wasn't hammer on corporations, I was simply stating that I believe the minimum wage is a good idea. I have no illusions that governments and NGO's are saints, but I ceertainly don't think businesses are either.

Anyway, perhaps we should get back to the OP soon. Sorry if I've helped this get off track.

 

[jasoncran]

only in the power and water grid do they compete.

now then bob has good point.