How do you know for sure jesus did the things he did and really existed?

[Chris]

How do you know for sure Jesus did the things he did and really existed?

Do it without bible verses. There is a way, actually there is a few.

 

[jasoncran]

you mean arguments such as the cosmological arguments and the historical writings josephus?

 

[childeye]

you mean arguments such as the cosmological arguments and the historical writings josephus?

How do we know Josephus existed?

 

[jasoncran]

How do we know Josephus existed?

book that he wrote. he was a jew that lived during the time of christs final years.

flavius josephus, yes i get your points its by faith but even the athiests cant deny his historical account from the first person or how he gathered the info. they will deny the recorded miracles of course.

 

[childeye]

book that he wrote. he was a jew that lived during the time of christs final years.

flavius josephus, yes i get your points its by faith but even the athiests cant deny his historical account from the first person or how he gathered the info. they will deny the recorded miracles of course.

My dear jasoncran I'm glad you get my point. I do not wish to have to explain my attempt at humor, for the satirical possibilities of this thread are hard for me to resist. On a serious note, you are correct. There are ways to prove even mathematically the Spirit of Christ. Love Ya, Larry.

 

[Chris]

I was thinking along maybe the way those who knew him personally or were eye witnesses died for what they saw. The Martyrs. That was recorded separately to the bible.

 

[jasoncran]

I was thinking along maybe the way those who knew him personally or were eye witnesses died for what they saw. The Martyrs. That was recorded separately to the bible.

foxes book of martyrs. well yes but that is because we already believe. the contra argument will not buy that as evidence.

 

[Chris]

foxes book of martyrs. well yes but that is because we already believe. the contra argument will not buy that as evidence.

the contra argument dont want to believe because of the implications. If Jesus was standing beside them they would just switch to a new excuse.

There are independent records written by historians that describe the killing of the Christians.


Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}

 

[jasoncran]

i know that history records the killing of christians. we operate by faith. here let me pull this one out on the flood in geological findings or evidence of young earth.
from here Layers Of Rock - Evolution Fairytale Forum
Millions of gallons of water from the melting glacier on top of Mt. St. Helens flowed down the Tuttle river before the ash cloud begin spewing high into the atmosphere. The mud flow laid down hundreds of feet of sediment and then the ash settled on top of it.

So, it was not what geologists are used to seeing. They assume that sediment below ash and lava was formed by slow gradual sedimentation, but the eruption at Mt. St. Helens proved them wrong.

In the picture you can clearly see three different layers. The middle layer is sediment - not ash or lava - that was deposited before the ash settled. The bottom layer is ash from a previous eruption.

 

[Chris]

i know that history records the killing of christians. we operate by faith. here let me pull this one out on the flood in geological findings or evidence of young earth.
from here Layers Of Rock - Evolution Fairytale Forum
Millions of gallons of water from the melting glacier on top of Mt. St. Helens flowed down the Tuttle river before the ash cloud begin spewing high into the atmosphere. The mud flow laid down hundreds of feet of sediment and then the ash settled on top of it.

So, it was not what geologists are used to seeing. They assume that sediment below ash and lava was formed by slow gradual sedimentation, but the eruption at Mt. St. Helens proved them wrong.

In the picture you can clearly see three different layers. The middle layer is sediment - not ash or lava - that was deposited before the ash settled. The bottom layer is ash from a previous eruption.

whoops that means the bible may be correct! What this means; it must be looked at with a new angle or a new excuse created that its not what the bible says. The atheists will have to put some over time in lol

 

[Elijah674]

How do you know for sure Jesus did the things he did and really existed?

Do it without bible verses. There is a way, actually there is a few.

My Testimony is only good for my 'Belief as proof'. No Bible you say?! So Heb. 6:1-5's positives only, show proof to these ones, and ONLY prove the question to me as one of these ones.

But nature is the Godheads Second Bible.

--Elijah

 

[Chris]

My Testimony is only good for my 'Belief as proof'. No Bible you say?! So Heb. 6:1-5's positives only, show proof to these ones, and ONLY prove the question to me as one of these ones.

But nature is the Godheads Second Bible.

--Elijah

l made it hard for you didn't I, questions with no bible references. I thought I might take out the most accurate and easiest thing and see whats left over

 

[childeye]

I was thinking along maybe the way those who knew him personally or were eye witnesses died for what they saw. The Martyrs. That was recorded separately to the bible.

The deaths of the apostles is actually strong evidence that there is a power of darkness working in men to stop the Truth from being preached. It wasn't coincidence they all died for preaching the Gospel. There certainly is solid evidence that all men have an absolute by which they must reason and this is their image of god.

 

[Chris]

I was thinking about this yesterday and how archaeological evidence is hard to come by like of Jesus own possessions.
Maybe this is a good thing because if there was really sacred items of proof like the burial shroud people would fight over ownership of them.

 

[pianodwarf]

How do you know for sure Jesus did the things he did and really existed?

The question is obviously a very important one, and rather troublesome. For example, in scripture, we have this (KJV):

Mt 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

4:25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

So according to Matthew, Jesus was very famous, and hundreds of people (indeed, likely thousands) traveled hundreds of miles to see him.

Jesus himself, of course, wasn't just sitting around, either -- he walked all over the place. Here's a map of all the places scriptures says that he visited:

Jesus Travels - sites Maps

Meaning that in addition to all the thousands who traveled to see him, he himself traveled and likely saw thousands more who did not travel themselves. That's thousands of people witnessing thousands of miracles.

The troublesome aspect of this is that the writers and historians of the period make almost no mention of him, and even the few texts where he is mentioned tend to be problematic for various reasons (the Josephus passage, for example, is generally agreed to have been at least partially forged). There are quite a few such people who would have been expected to have written at some length about a man this extraordinary, but never said anything about him at all -- sample list given below.

This is rather worrisome. If the events described in the gospels are, indeed, historically accurate, there should be an overwhelming amount of contemporary supporting material from a wide variety of sources. Instead, we have almost nothing. This makes very little sense if the gospels are historically accurate. However, it makes perfect sense if the gospels are fictional.


-----------------
Historians/writers of the time who made no mention of Jesus:

Apollonius, Persius, Appian, Petronius, Arrian, Phaedrus, Aulus Gellius, Philo-Judaeus, Columella, Phlegon, Damis, Pliny the Elder, Dio Chrysostom, Pliny the Younger, Dion Pruseus, Plutarch, Epictetus, Pompon Mela, Favorinus, Ptolemy, Florus Lucius, Quintilian, Hermogones, Quintius Curtius, Pausanias, Seneca, Justus of Tiberius, Silius Italicus, Juvenal, Statius, Lucanus, Suetonius, Lucian, Tacitus, Lysias, Theon of Smyran, Martial, Valerius Flaccus, Paterculus, and Valerius Maximus.

 

[Webb]

Seems somewhere I read of the funny man Lucian who complained that he had a hard time getting folk to attend his show on one occasion because the diciples were holding a meeting.

 

[WIP]

So far the evidence that seems to have been included in this thread is all written evidence. If we the people are willing to believe in the writings of these non-biblical sources, then why not the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Jude, Peter, etc? Sounds like a double-standard.

 

[Chris]

So far the evidence that seems to have been included in this thread is all written evidence. If we the people are willing to believe in the writings of these non-biblical sources, then why not the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Jude, Peter, etc? Sounds like a double-standard.

Because that's the easy way out. I was making it harder for the fun of it.

 

[childeye]

I was thinking about this yesterday and how archaeological evidence is hard to come by like of Jesus own possessions.
Maybe this is a good thing because if there was really sacred items of proof like the burial shroud people would fight over ownership of them.

Chris there is plenty of historical evidence that Jesus exsisted. Personally I don't see why that matters since the Truth he spoke or presumably spoke is without fault and therefore eternal and Godly.

 

[Chris]

The question is obviously a very important one, and rather troublesome. For example, in scripture, we have this (KJV):



So according to Matthew, Jesus was very famous, and hundreds of people (indeed, likely thousands) traveled hundreds of miles to see him.

Jesus himself, of course, wasn't just sitting around, either -- he walked all over the place. Here's a map of all the places scriptures says that he visited:

Jesus Travels - sites Maps

Meaning that in addition to all the thousands who traveled to see him, he himself traveled and likely saw thousands more who did not travel themselves. That's thousands of people witnessing thousands of miracles.

The troublesome aspect of this is that the writers and historians of the period make almost no mention of him, and even the few texts where he is mentioned tend to be problematic for various reasons (the Josephus passage, for example, is generally agreed to have been at least partially forged). There are quite a few such people who would have been expected to have written at some length about a man this extraordinary, but never said anything about him at all -- sample list given below.

This is rather worrisome. If the events described in the gospels are, indeed, historically accurate, there should be an overwhelming amount of contemporary supporting material from a wide variety of sources. Instead, we have almost nothing. This makes very little sense if the gospels are historically accurate. However, it makes perfect sense if the gospels are fictional.


-----------------
Historians/writers of the time who made no mention of Jesus:

Apollonius, Persius, Appian, Petronius, Arrian, Phaedrus, Aulus Gellius, Philo-Judaeus, Columella, Phlegon, Damis, Pliny the Elder, Dio Chrysostom, Pliny the Younger, Dion Pruseus, Plutarch, Epictetus, Pompon Mela, Favorinus, Ptolemy, Florus Lucius, Quintilian, Hermogones, Quintius Curtius, Pausanias, Seneca, Justus of Tiberius, Silius Italicus, Juvenal, Statius, Lucanus, Suetonius, Lucian, Tacitus, Lysias, Theon of Smyran, Martial, Valerius Flaccus, Paterculus, and Valerius Maximus.

tell me- how valuable was paper in jesus time?
what was the literacy rate?
how was history recorded in that time?

Is there usually a time period in ancient history between events and there recording?

Do eyewitness accounts send men to jail/death?