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How do you pray to the trinity?

Rollo Tamasi said:
I have a problem with this.
If Jesus was not the Creator, but just an instrument that God the Father used for creation, then you are putting Jesus in the same class as a "servant" rather than part of the Godhead.
Could God the Father have created anything without Jesus?
If you say yes, then Jesus is no longer God.
If you say no, then Jesus is God the Creator.
A better way to explain it is to say we don't fully understand the Trinity.
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Rollo, it's the Modern trinity version that put Jesus as the 2nd person in the Godhead. Scripture says we are part of the Godhead bodily, or the body of Christ that make up the eternal powers to rule as Kings and priest.

Trinity doctrine states (Modern versiosn) that it's a mystery, because according to Rome the part about 3 being 1 God is not found in scripture, but a mystery of the Christain faith.

We don't use a old doctrine to understand scriptures.

As for Jesus being a servant, That is not something I did, but talk to the Father about it. I can't Help God saying things that get folks reliegion up in a ruffel.

Isa 53:10-11 kjva 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.



Isa 49:3-6 kjva 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

So, there are no scriptures that allude Jesus as to being the Creator. God Address him as Servant, that is what the Father called him, the same God that said there is none like me or other gods.

There is one Lord God, One Lord Jesus Christ.

The FAther CAlled Jesus God in Hebrews, so there is no question Jesus is Not God. He is just not His Father, and if you read the above scripture in ISA, It appears that Jesus may be speaking instead of the Father.
 
I have been thinking about this a lot lately because there are several threads discussing the Trinity. I pray to Jesus all most all of the time, but now that I think about it I do thank the Father for sending the Son to die for our sins. I also ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.
 
So what is your point?
To confuse everyone?
The Trinity has no direct references in Scripture.
If one chooses not to believe in the Trinity, then they are not considered a true Christian.
The Trinity idea was started by a political leader.
We can go on and on and on but what does it all prove?

I sincerely believe that if one chooses to believe in the Trinity, then the truth of it will remain a mystery.
If God did not address it directly to us in his word, then why do we need to figure it out?
I believe in God. Call him the Father if you like because Jesus called him Father.
I believe that Jesus is God.
Call him son if you like because the Bible says So.
And the "Bible says that the Holy Spirit comes from God also.

So it is man's reasoning that tries to put it all together and make sense out of it.
That's exactly what you are doing and you are confusing.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
This is vague.
Jesus is God.
If I were to pray to Jesus instead of God the Father, would my prayers not be answered?
The answer is they would be answered, because I prayed to Jesus for years and got my prayers answered before I understood anything else.
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You could pray to Jesus, but Jesus himself taught us how to pray.

Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name." Matthew 6:9 (ESV)

I happen to think it matters what Jesus said regarding how we are to pray.
 
Brother Mike said:
Traditionaly Trinity maintains that Jesus is not the Father, Not the Holy Spirit and so on.

More Modern Jesus is the 2nd person in the Godhead.

I assume they were just quoting the Trinity belief, That Jesus is not the FAther, since the Post is about praying to the Trinity.

As for Jesus being the Creator in John 1:3.

Well, you need to visit what I posted in my other thread about the Original Trinity doctrine. It's sort of Long. Oneness believes that Jesus is the Creator, or God manifest in 3 parts. This Makes Jesus the Creator.
Trinity is 3 are One.

However, Since you are a scholar and want to check something out. The Key Word in John 1:3 is the Greek word DIA.

All things were made "BY-DIA" Him and "Without" him nothing was made.

The Word is translated correct enough, but DIA means by something, as in passing by something or because of something. It's not in the sense like, "This picture was created by "Rollo"!!!!

Col 1:16 kjva For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:16 says all things By him and For him.

It would indicate he made everying for hiself.

However, all scriptures must match perfectly, so if we translate DIA a bit better we see they do.
Dia means a channel or act through something (Strongs)
On account of, or because of, the reason for. (Thayer)

So, DIA means through as in bypass, because of, for something.

Other translations show this better, but the KJV has a couple other scripture that put the together.

Rom 11:36 kjva For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

For of Him, because of Him, and through Him are all things.

Heb 1:2 kjva Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In the Last days the FAther has spoken to us by his son whom the FAther made all things through and because of the Son.

Everything the Father Created, was through, and because of His son.

That makes Jesus not the creator, but the 2nd person in the Godhead tirnity doctrine.

Don't ask for scipture where Jesus is the second person of the Godhead, I am just quoting mans modern version.
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The preposition "dia" is a preposition of means, which would be used like this.

I traveled to New York City by plane. It expresses the means by which expresses how the method or action came about, for instance, in this sentence my traveling to New York City was explained by traveling by airplane.

If God created all things through Jesus, as in, Jesus was the means by which all things were made. Then it would be proper to say that both God the Father and Jesus are creators. Indeed, good Trinitarian doctrine that is revealed in Scripture points to the fact that all too part in the creative process of our universe.
 
Brother Mike said:
Amen, don't take my word for it. There are so many things that are not scripture we believe, just because we have heard those things over and over.

Scripture clearly says the Father Created all things for Jesus.
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All things for, and THROUGH Jesus. Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit all took part in the creative process of the universe.

Trinity believes there are 3 beings.
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Trinity believes they are one in being or essence and three in person. Please do not misrepresent Trinitarian doctrine.

Trinity does not believe the Son of God created everything, but is the 2nd person in the Godhead.
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Actually Trinitarians do believe that.

It's Oneness and Modalist that believe Jesus is God incarnate, the Word part of God, or the God that was made flesh. Trinity never made such claims.
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You're saying that Trinitarians deny the incarnation? What a hoot!

Scripture says the Father is the Creator, not the Son and Trinity does not contradict any scriptures at all.
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If I were to build my house with my dad, it would be proper to say that we both built it, would it not. You see how your logic doesn't make any sense?

The Original says Jesus is of the same substance as the FAther, or same God essence.

However, they still keep them seperate until the mystery part of the Christain faith.
3 distinct beings become 1 somehow.
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So much of what you're saying is contradictory in that you almost sound trinitarian at parts though at other times, clearly a modalist. Are you a modalist who simply thinks that is what the Trinity used to be known as?
 
Doulos Iesou said:
The preposition "dia" is a preposition of means, which would be used like this.

I traveled to New York City by plane. It expresses the means by which expresses how the method or action came about, for instance, in this sentence my traveling to New York City was explained by traveling by airplane.

If God created all things through Jesus, as in, Jesus was the means by which all things were made. Then it would be proper to say that both God the Father and Jesus are creators. Indeed, good Trinitarian doctrine that is revealed in Scripture points to the fact that all too part in the creative process of our universe.
Click to expand...

All things were made through and for Jesus. Zero scripture denoting Jesus as creator, and no place did Jesus take credit for creating anything.

Scripture says that the father made the world for the son, I posted that scripture, and one other scripture. Jesus would not take credit for some thing His Father did as you suggest, Or deny everything the Father did was for him. It was Jesus that said the Father Gave him glory before the foundation of the World, not the other way around.

The Greek Word DIA stands as it is, and matches other scripture perfectly making the Father the Creator.

Trinitarians do not believe there is one being in essense and 3 in persons. True Trinitarians keep both seperate but are of the same essence. So that is two beings of the same essence, God of God, Light of LIght. I posted the real doctrine in another thread.

Despite what Trinity doctrine believes as it's just a doctrine of men. The Father is creator of all things. The One and only Lord God which there is none like him.
Jesus is not the Creator, would never take credit for any creation, neither would the Holy Spirit take any credit for anything. It's the Father, the Lord God of all Isreal, the one that formed the earth.

Modelist are folks that try to explain the Trintity with scripture, being ignorant that it's a mystery that can't be explained and often come up sounding like Oneness.

I am not a modelist, Onenss or Trinitarian. Trinitarian doctrine clearly states one must be part of the true Cathloic Church. Not Cathloic.

Rome says that Trinity can not be backed by scripture, the folks that made the doctine. I posted those references in my other thread.

In any case, True Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Creator, and that happens to be true in scripture also which I can give many scripture to support that, and there are zero scriptures to prove He is.

Even the disciples were not confused who the Lord God was and the Lord Jesus Christ was.
 
Brother Mike said:
All things were made through and for Jesus. Zero scripture denoting Jesus as creator, and no place did Jesus take credit for creating anything.

Scripture says that the father made the world for the son, I posted that scripture, and one other scripture. Jesus would not take credit for some thing His Father did as you suggest, Or deny everything the Father did was for him. It was Jesus that said the Father Gave him glory before the foundation of the World, not the other way around.

The Greek Word DIA stands as it is, and matches other scripture perfectly making the Father the Creator.

Trinitarians do not believe there is one being in essense and 3 in persons. True Trinitarians keep both seperate but are of the same essence. So that is two beings of the same essence, God of God, Light of LIght. I posted the real doctrine in another thread.

Despite what Trinity doctrine believes as it's just a doctrine of men. The Father is creator of all things. The One and only Lord God which there is none like him.
Jesus is not the Creator, would never take credit for any creation, neither would the Holy Spirit take any credit for anything. It's the Father, the Lord God of all Isreal, the one that formed the earth.

Modelist are folks that try to explain the Trintity with scripture, being ignorant that it's a mystery that can't be explained and often come up sounding like Oneness.

I am not a modelist, Onenss or Trinitarian. Trinitarian doctrine clearly states one must be part of the true Cathloic Church. Not Cathloic.

Rome says that Trinity can not be backed by scripture, the folks that made the doctine. I posted those references in my other thread.

In any case, True Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Creator, and that happens to be true in scripture also which I can give many scripture to support that, and there are zero scriptures to prove He is.

Even the disciples were not confused who the Lord God was and the Lord Jesus Christ was.
Click to expand...
This is sooo all over the place I don't know where to begin. Since this isn't the debate forum, I'll just bid you good day.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
So what is your point?
To confuse everyone?
The Trinity has no direct references in Scripture.
If one chooses not to believe in the Trinity, then they are not considered a true Christian.
The Trinity idea was started by a political leader.
We can go on and on and on but what does it all prove?

I sincerely believe that if one chooses to believe in the Trinity, then the truth of it will remain a mystery.
If God did not address it directly to us in his word, then why do we need to figure it out?
I believe in God. Call him the Father if you like because Jesus called him Father.
I believe that Jesus is God.
Call him son if you like because the Bible says So.
And the "Bible says that the Holy Spirit comes from God also.

So it is man's reasoning that tries to put it all together and make sense out of it.
That's exactly what you are doing and you are confusing.
Click to expand...

Your confusing two different things Rollo. Both Trinity Doctrine and myself believe Jesus is not creator. Modern trintiy doctrine believes Jesus is the 2nd person in the Godhead, not the Father, or the Holy Spirit or Creator.

I don't buy into anything coming from Rome. Not saying everything is false. I am not against the Trinity Doctrine or for it.

The Doctrine does it's best to say exactly what scriptures say. Oneness does not, but is a convulted mess.

The Only thing the Trinity Doctrine does is make 3 distinct beings One God (Modern Version) the Original version did not, or even mentioned the Holy Spirit. The part they all just become one is the mystery part. Rome admits, that is not found in scripture.

If Not found in scripture, there is nothing for the Father to reveal to us about it.

People don't get confused by me posting scriptures. Trinity does not believe Jesus is the Creator anyway Modelist and Oneness people do. Scriptures give light, and I can't help what the Holy Spirit considered the Son before the NT, but a Servant. He did that, not me.

jeff77 said:
I have been thinking about this a lot lately because there are several threads discussing the Trinity. I pray to Jesus all most all of the time, but now that I think about it I do thank the Father for sending the Son to die for our sins. I also ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Click to expand...

Scripture says that through Jesus we have access to the Father through One Spirit. I find it hard to believe that since there is now a constant connection to the Father that addressing the Wrong person does not still get to the proper places. The Holy Spirit does not speak of his own, but tells our spirit everything that he hears and connects us to the Father directly. I doubt there is a switchboard operator who cancels your call because you dialed the Wrong number.

Jesus is Head of the Church, is our Advocate with the FAther, so He also has to be aware of all things, like His FAther.
 
Doulos Iesou said:
This is sooo all over the place I don't know where to begin. Since this isn't the debate forum, I'll just bid you good day.
Click to expand...

It's all over because you posted several in a row. I do have a thread sort of like it in the debate forum, but it's about the Original Trinity Doctrine. I have nothing against the doctrine. Right now the thread in the debate forum is going into the blood of Jesus and him being flesh in a new body. Way off topic.

It's hard to respond keeping in line with the Original thread as who do you pray to in the Trinity, as the Thread OP already assumses the Trinity is real. So to say it's not real is out of line with the op since it's been established that the Trinity Doctrine is true.

There is another thread that ask if Jesus is God. God the FAther called Jesus God, so that pretty much settles that matter. One scripture clearly says that.

Might need a thread called, is Jesus the Creator. If your true Trinitarian you would say no, but many who think their trinitarian do not even know what that is. It does get complicated.
 
WalterandDebbie said:
All! power have be given to Jesus: http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-18.htm

http://biblehub.com/john/15-26.htm
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1Co 15:27-28 kjva 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Apparently by choice, the son subjected back under the father all things given to him. Not 100 percent sure how all that works.
 
Every morning I pray to each one because each one has done, and is doing, things in my life. I say, good morning heavenly Father, good morning Master Jesus, good morning Holy Spirit. To the Father, I present my body as a living sacrifice, to Jesus I surrender my life, to the Holy Spirit I ask for the Father's ways to be my ways and His thoughts to be my thoughts....So, I simply address each One as to what He has done for me by thanking Him, and worshiping each one as it applies to each one individually.
 
Chopper said:
Every morning I pray to each one because each one has done, and is doing, things in my life. I say, good morning heavenly Father, good morning Master Jesus, good morning Holy Spirit. To the Father, I present my body as a living sacrifice, to Jesus I surrender my life, to the Holy Spirit I ask for the Father's ways to be my ways and His thoughts to be my thoughts....So, I simply address each One as to what He has done for me by thanking Him, and worshiping each one as it applies to each one individually.
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That is a good idea Chopper.
 
Chopper said:
Every morning I pray to each one because each one has done, and is doing, things in my life. I say, good morning heavenly Father, good morning Master Jesus, good morning Holy Spirit. To the Father, I present my body as a living sacrifice, to Jesus I surrender my life, to the Holy Spirit I ask for the Father's ways to be my ways and His thoughts to be my thoughts....So, I simply address each One as to what He has done for me by thanking Him, and worshiping each one as it applies to each one individually.
Click to expand...

That is good, I find myself limited in my physical form of expression. Praying in tongues helps lots, but it just seems the flesh limited senses would seek more. Like I want to jump out of the flesh, go up there and say, Hey guys, whats up, talk to me, tell me everything."
 
Pray to God the father usually. I'm confused, too. Sometimes, when I pray to Jesus, I'll preface it with "I'm not sure if I should be praying to you, but..." LOL. Need to read more Scripture, clearly.

While praying, I'll praise each member of The Trinity separately for their work in my life.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
So what is your point?
To confuse everyone?
The Trinity has no direct references in Scripture.
If one chooses not to believe in the Trinity, then they are not considered a true Christian.
The Trinity idea was started by a political leader.
We can go on and on and on but what does it all prove?

I sincerely believe that if one chooses to believe in the Trinity, then the truth of it will remain a mystery.
If God did not address it directly to us in his word, then why do we need to figure it out?
I believe in God. Call him the Father if you like because Jesus called him Father.
I believe that Jesus is God.
Call him son if you like because the Bible says So.
And the "Bible says that the Holy Spirit comes from God also.

So it is man's reasoning that tries to put it all together and make sense out of it.
That's exactly what you are doing and you are confusing.
Click to expand...

Who are you talking to?
 
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