How does Pork Kill you?

[Sparkey]

Greetings, handy (Dora)

I wish I could say that there was no guile in my mouth when I confessed that I do love you. What I can say is that I mean it in truth. I do and am finding more and more reasons for this every day. Thank you for coming here and for setting your peace on this thread. I seek your forgiveness for the tone in which I greeted you (it was meant toward the subject under discussion and certainly not you) and I misspoke myself and could have trespassed against you < which is sin to me >.

Please also pardon my presumption of editing the following for the sake of brevity and ease of comment(s) which have been indented under yours.
I welcome you as one that I hoped for with ears given to hear < I am not saying that you have 'heard me' but only that I can add my witness that you have heard > our Father in this. It is my prayer that my words will bless here you even as yours <HIS> have me.

"handy wrote:
The only thing is, how to hang toilet paper truly is a trivial matter.

I don't believe this is a trivial matter at all.

• I agree.

This is a truly important vision and it's ramifications are profound. There has been much discussion as to whether or not the vision was meant to signify what to eat or was it that the gentiles were now open to receive the Lord's blessings or both.

The truth is, that it was all that and more.

Under the new Covenant, it matters not what is placed into one's mouth. As has been repeated a number of times, our Lord pointed out in a very frank and blunt way, that what goes into the mouth is digested and then eliminated. Under the new Covenant, it's not what goes into the mouth that matters, but what comes out of it. It is not a Covenant of Laws that is superimposed upon one's person. It is...well, the Lord Himself tells us what the New Covenant is:

• If you follow what you have rightly called, "a very rank and blunt" allusion, Jesus was saying to the Pharasees (who strained at gnats and ignored weightier matters of the law like Peace and longsuffering - although didn't mention those two specific to them) we see that He was suggesting that they too would be "purged" into that same pit. He was calling them ca-ca. Of course we now know just how potent that allusion was and should know how potent it is.

"For this is the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God and they shall be My people. And they shall NOT teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying 'Know that Lord' for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

• We can all agree then, that like Moses, we should say: "Would God that..." "And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them! (Num 11:29) Does this remind anyone of what Paul wrote to the overly "spiritual" church in Corinth about Prophecy?

The key difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is Pentecost, my friends. Pentecost means that under the New Covenant, each and every one of us has the Spirit of God dwelling within us. It is the Spirit who will convict us as to what is right and what is wrong. This is why it is true that if a person thinks that it is sin to eat pork, then for THAT person, it is. This is why we are to be so careful not to place ourselves as a stumbling block before our brother, because the Lord is doing a work within each of our hearts, dependent upon where each person is in their individual walk with God.

• Thank you for the gentle tone and what I might call exceptional insight. I'm not saying that to puff you up of course. Your relationship with Christ is likely no more intense nor wonderful than many men and women. Most are not able to share those "private" things as well as you do. Sometimes I can not master that to my shame. Also note that I placed the emphases on the word "that" so as to show our agreement. I also took the liberty of coloring the last statement because herein lies the truth and sum of the discussion.

The reason why Judeaising is such an insidious heresy is that it seeks to separate the person from the Holy Spirit and place them under a predetermined list of do's and don'ts. It effectively negates Christ's finished work on the cross within the heart of the believer.

We can all share with one another our wisdom and our opinions of what is considered righteous and unrighteous under the New Covenant. But, we must not, must not seek to put back into place that which the Lord Himself has declared obsolete.

As far as issues of what to eat, what to drink, what days to worship on, what festivals to embrace, all these things we have freedom in Christ. Under the New Covenant, if the Spirit dwelling within one doesn't convict one regarding these non-essential things, then enjoy your freedom. Just don't let your freedom become a stumbling block to another, for the Spirit might convict your neighbor on something, for whatever reason. This is life under the new covenant.[/quote]

• :amen

"And, I didn't mean my question to indicate that Fembot was being deceptive in her POV, but rather to bring up an issue."

• I hope you see that I didn't take it that way and that IMOO the "point" you raised did in fact bring up an "issue" as you intended.

Again my thanks: yours is like water from the tongue, others more like fire, n'cest ce pas?
Let us all know though that we are to become the new Jerusalem, the City of Peace.

I honestly consider that nobody can know how crucial it is for a man like me to passionately love the law. It is the very thing that separates me from "that lawless one". That, and the fact that I confess Jesus, that He was sent from our Heavenly Father and was born in flesh and dwelt amongst us. Let all tongues confess that Jesus our Christ Messiah is God.

~Sparrowhawke

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Blessed is the man who comes in the Name of Jesus.

 

[Sparkey]

Follower of Christ, Greetings!

I have heard by my own ear your blessing to Fembot. It is witnessed by "HeWhoRemembers" who is also sometimes called Sparrowhawke. <--- but that is of no import. It was witnessed by God. Thank you for this.

Now may I then, to you also I come? But know ye this: As Peacemaker and in the Name of Jesus do I.
I am not a Greek but there with there lies a gift to you -- it is about something witnessed by Paul.
I like to call this, "AND MOSES FLED":

Then said the High Priest, "Are these things so?"

And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran, and said unto him, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee."

Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

And God spake on this wise, "That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place."

And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs. And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, and delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.

Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance. But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first.
And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh. Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls. So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, and were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.

But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt, Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph. The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live. In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months: And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.

And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds. And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel. And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian: for he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.

And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, "Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?"

But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, "Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us? Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday? "Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons. And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, Saying, "I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

Then said the Lord to him, "Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt."

This Moses whom they refused, saying, "Who made thee a ruler and a judge?" the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, "A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear." This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, Saying unto Aaron, "Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him."

And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, "O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

But Solomon built him an house.

Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. "

When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, BEHOLD: I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
(Acts Chaper 7)

<Did you scroll past?> Be sure to take the moment required to pray and read the word of God. Nobody needs the reminder that the living word of God is holy.

But surely one will come and ask, "Sparrow why? "Why do you sing this to FoC?"
To that one my only reply will be:
"How can one hear the voice of a small bird and not the very breath and life of Him who spoke?"

• We can see how the Holy Spirit was working in Saul even then. This is the very same Paul who was called to the Office of Apostle and sent to the Gentiles. It was said of Stephan, "Act 6:15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel."
  
  Paul knows what he speaks about when he mentions the longsuffering of God and how we each should consider it as we deal with each other. So does Peter for that matter, yes? It is from the writings of Paul that we know:
  "If his conscience convicts him that it is a sin ---> to that man <--- it is sin." It is from Paul that we know that it is not for the Jew to require that the Gentile refrain from eating according to the law of clean and unclean.

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
Act 15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
Act 15:33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

I have set my peace upon this thread and ask the saints of God to do so with me.
I am loath to remove my sandal in any way other than to venerate holy ground.
When I was in church I wanted to rend my clothes as I listened to a pastor extract monies from the poor themselves by almost lethal force while misstating the law about tithe. At that moment I spiritually removed my sandal and offered it to my Lord, saying, "Take this from me, I fear I may misuse." Since that time my sandal has been returned by God and I have it here even now. But am I special in this or is it true for all? It is true for those with the faith needed and this only by God.

Verily I say:
I am eaten by zeal
Asking for hearts to turn.
That this, His house;
Might be a house of prayer.
Inside from fear that bones will burn:
"Let it not be < I pray thee >...
That in peace it may return."

~Sparrowhawke

 

[follower of Christ]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again....Sparrow, I cant make heads nor tails of MOST of your posts
Its probably me .

 

[follower of Christ]

All this talk about pork is making me want some chops and apple sauce :D
Think I'll run to Walmart...

 

[Sparkey]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again....Sparrow, I cant make heads nor tails of MOST of your posts
Its probably me .

That's okay - it's just a peace offering. I've gotten much nourishment from there. Kinda like sharing a meal together. I just wanted to show something I'm sure you already know and is enjoyable to read ---> That chapter in Acts. It's about men of passion and the salvation of Paul.

I won't bless Wal-Mart, but I would certainly ask that your meal be blessed.
< Both in the chops and the Acts >

I am of course referring to the pork chops and applesause you mentioned as one kind of meal and the chapter that I mentioned in the book of acts as yet another kind of meal. I have a peculiar turn of phrase oftentimes and also a peculiar mind. Of course I like that description better than "weirdo" or "nut-cake" or "huh?". I've heard it before -- because not only do I write thas way, i talk that way and think that way. Try being me sometime.

*smile*
~Sparrow

What do we think, can we put this thread to bed?

 

[Sparkey]

What do we think, can we put this thread to bed?

I'd like to tell a story, a bedtime story if you will.
This one takes us back to a certain King who was also a Priest.
He was a slayer of Giants and a Mighty Man of God, called a "man after God's own heart".

< Getting sleepy yet? >

Naw, I'm not going to tell you about David but instead would like to mention a custom that dates back to his time and day, maybe further? Who knows? We know that David was all those thing mentioned but when our ear goes to the beginning he is seen as a youthful shepherd boy.

< As you close your eyes and listen, can you see him? >

There he is! But what is he doing?? That boy has been with his sheep too much methinks.

The young shepherd was bored. It was hot outside and he had been tending his sheep since he awoke with them in the sheepcote. Now the sheepcote was built by him for their protection and he had personally brought all the brambles and briers in the field to be able to make it. Each of the sheep that had been given into his charge were "HIS RESPONSIBILITY" and he couldn't help but let his chest out in a certain sense of pride about that. That sheepcote was part of this, his "pride and joy". Our young shepherd spotted the field about a week ago and the very first thing he did was mark his boundaries (yes, he did it in the way you imagine). He went to the furthest places and "placed his mark" so that any wild animals would understand immediately by the scent alone that this was a "place of man".

The sheepcote was well protected on three sides. He had chosen a soft spot near a small hill deliberately and carefully placed the brambles with the longest thorns on the outside. It was hard, sweaty work but he did it with care, they were his sheep and not one would be "lost". He knew the habits of the predators too. They would sneak in and rip the throats of as many as they could before they dragged them out to eat them. It was his habit to lie down at the entrance he made for the sheep so that "none could enter, except through me."

These were the thoughts of our young David as we spy on him from afar. He and the flock, as he liked to call them, were coming around a bend in the trail. Bored and seeking amusement of any form he quickly glanced behind to see if any were paying attention. They weren't. YES! His little plan might work.

As the shepherd approached the long bend in the trail he deliberately slowed his pace. The sheep slowed with him and he checked their complacency once again. :yes

The bend came closer and he quickened his pace -- outta sight he soon would be. As soon as he was beyond their sight he put on a sudden burst of speed. Now all he had to do was make it round the bend and the little sheep, they would be "scattered".

It was there he waited out of sight as he heard their bleating turn to cry. Stealthily he checked them, yet again - not one had seen his eye.

Now why would our prince do such a thing? Skip ahead but a moment when our hero is found. Notice how delighted the sheep are as they frolic together and gambol around him. That little lamb is actually pronking in her joy her shepherd, her joy restored.

G'night FoC and Drew, Handy and Fembot, G'night one and all.
May our shepherd's peace be with you now in Grace ye shall not fall.

~sparrow


WAIT SPARROW! What was the custom???
What was the custom you ask?

It is called anointing. Shepherds would anoint their sheep with oil.
Sheep are very timid by nature and susceptible to certain illnesses.
One of which would be the buzzing of flying insects especially around their faces.
Left untreated this certain ailment can actually kill.

The "treatment" was (and still is today) the application of oil to the face anywhere there was no wool of the lambs especially but also to the rams and ewes. The older know to turn their faces to him and the younger soon learn. We need our Shepherd to grant each one here this very same cure. Yes?

G'night sheishisown, g'night Tom-boy, g'night Mary-Ellen.
And the children on Wal-Mart's mountain slept well for the first time in days.
Each tucked into their beds some with dreams of pork-chops, some with dreams of wars and still some with dreams of a little shepherd boy who is willing to die for each and every one.

 

[Drew]

Again, I am limiting my discussion here.
[*]First it is written only to those who have been given by the Holy Spirit an "ear to hear". That is quickly followed by my prayer, "Let them hear, Lord."

This sounds very much like the tired and demonstrably wrong idea that "my position is correct because the Spirit told me it was" argument, as if this gives you the right to ignore what the Scripture say and rule any contrary opinions "out of bounds".

[*]Secondly I only addressed your conclusion as it was drawn from the writings of Paul.

I do not understand what you are saying here. I am confident that you have provided no workable arguments to the effect that Paul sees the food laws as still in force.

[*]& Third and upon this I must insist, as already stated, My argument is mine.You might not see the wisdom in my voluntary limits but they do restrict me and not you. Why object?

I have no idea what you are saying here. Of course your argument are "yours". And mine are mine. But this is an open forum and no one gets a free pass.

 

[Drew]

I am now pleading with my Christian Canadian to accept this token. It is a peace offering. A twig and not an arrow.

I appreciate the spirit of this, but I think it is the responsibilty to each Christian to point out error.

And, frankly, I think there is a clear and robust case that the Levitical food laws no longer apply to anyone.

You, and others may well wonder if this is worth aguing about. I think it is. Bad theology - even in respect to items that seem entirely disconnected with the content of "real life" - almost always has negative consequences.

It is important to understand that the food laws have been done away with to properly integrate the cross into the larger story of Israel and of humanity in general. Jesus did away with the written code in its entirety - food laws, ceremony, sacrifice in the temple, all of it. He came to fulfill Israel's destiny and in so doing pass judgement on two of the key elements of Jewish life: temple and Torah.

Jesus did away with both of these, replacing them with a new kingdom model with new symbols (communion, baptism) and a new way of "being Israel". If one still thinks that Torah (e.g. the food laws) are still in force, it is hard to see how one has developed an understanding of how God's story is actually moving forward in time.

In short, to think the food laws are still in place is not to realize how history turns on the cross.

 

[Drew]

And to say that we shouldnt 'wrestle it away' is to say that we should ALLOW false teachings that would put us BACK under law to prevail. Paul, in Galatians and elsewhere, would hardly agree that allowing ourselves to be put back under that yoke of bondage is acceptable.

I agree. In Galatians Paul makes it clear that being under Law is indeed bondage.

And, I would add, Paul makes a case in Romans that the Law was always a yoke of bondage. God gave the Law to the Jews for a specific and good reason (which I will not get into in the present post), but the Law for the Jew was indeed a "yoke" that they needed to bear as part of God's sweeping plan of redemption. That burden was necessary, but its time has passed. Jesus' work on the cross dovetails in beautiful harmony with the Torah burden borne by Israel. And with the victory of the cross, the Jews are liberated from Torah. So, Paul writes, Jesus is the end of Torah:

4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

 

[francisdesales]

I agree. In Galatians Paul makes it clear that being under Law is indeed bondage.

Drew,

I am not really sure how this discussion has gone even this long. Where does Paul tell Gentiles that they are bound by the Jewish OT Law??? (rhetorical question, for you, since I know we agree) The only time Paul addresses the Jewish Levitical laws is to refute its application now that the New Covenant is in force. Certainly, he argues against the necessity of continuing Jewish customs and dietary laws for Jews. However, I do not recall at any verse that he says that GENTILES must become "Jewish" to be Christian. When we become Christians, we "Gentiles" certainly didn't have to become circumcised, nor do we have to abide by any other Jewish laws that were applicable only to Jews during the Old Covenant...

All of this talk is a desire to make us Jewish before we become righteous in Christ...

Regards

 

[Sparkey]

Drew! thank you for your return to this thread!

I sincerely mean this from my heart. With your permission I will unloose the voluntary things that have been placed on my to ensure that my foot does not crush the innocent and now that I sense that we have peace in our hearts --- and this is from my 'inner man' --- now unto me is given the ability to think about what you are saying.

But I really do need peace within to go before Him and sit at His feet while I quiet my heart and try to confirm what you are say. This I will do. I will now go back and read what you have said and will consider it. I have suspected that you had something to teach me. But I simply can not sit at your feet or at the feet of my Master while there is an outbreak of plague amongst His people.

Join with me (as I suspect you have) and bless this thread with your peace too, yes? From there we go to our Father. I pray this in the Name of our Mighty One whom we all know and love. Do me a favor too please? If it pleases you? Greet me here with a token, a twig - give me what I crave from my innermost man - a word that He has shared with you about Rest. I will accept it in the spirit that you offer it as I have endeavored to do so in the past. I cannot argue this with you, can Christ battle Christ? We are now speaking of an holy thing - something that is higher than both of us and if we seek it, if we ask of it, if we are knocking -- it must be done together an' with the fruits of the Spirit within.

Salutations in Christ, brother! My thanks go out to you in this for your patience.

~Sparrowhawke

 

[Fembot]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again....Sparrow, I cant make heads nor tails of MOST of your posts
Its probably me .

or your attention span ---all fun and games follower-you baited me, what can I say? :rolling

 

[Sparkey]

Hush you. You can say, "hush you".

 

[Fembot]

I am now pleading with my Christian Canadian to accept this token. It is a peace offering. A twig and not an arrow.

I appreciate the spirit of this, but I think it is the responsibilty to each Christian to point out error.

And, frankly, I think there is a clear and robust case that the Levitical food laws no longer apply to anyone.

You, and others may well wonder if this is worth aguing about. I think it is. Bad theology - even in respect to items that seem entirely disconnected with the content of "real life" - almost always has negative consequences.

It is important to understand that the food laws have been done away with to properly integrate the cross into the larger story of Israel and of humanity in general. Jesus did away with the written code in its entirety - food laws, ceremony, sacrifice in the temple, all of it. He came to fulfill Israel's destiny and in so doing pass judgement on two of the key elements of Jewish life: temple and Torah.

Jesus did away with both of these, replacing them with a new kingdom model with new symbols (communion, baptism) and a new way of "being Israel". If one still thinks that Torah (e.g. the food laws) are still in force, it is hard to see how one has developed an understanding of how God's story is actually moving forward in time.

In short, to think the food laws are still in place is not to realize how history turns on the cross.

Agree to disagree and leave it at that. Like Handy said, there really are important things to be concerned with. If you agree that we all sin then you should also agree that some people are doing their best to obey God. Whether the law is outdated or not, those who choose live by God's laws will reap the benefits. You are being judgmental by taking sparrows "peace offering" and turning it into an "arrow."

God Bless Drew

 

[Drew]

Join with me (as I suspect you have) and bless this thread with your peace too, yes? From there we go to our Father. I pray this in the Name of our Mighty One whom we all know and love. Do me a favor too please? If it pleases you? Greet me here with a token, a twig - give me what I crave from my innermost man - a word that He has shared with you about Rest.

Greetings Sparrow:

As I hope that I have said - and perhaps I have not - you seem to be a very nice person. Please do not assume that my disagreements with you - and I often have great difficulty ascertaining your position - reflect dislike or contempt. If I have strayed over that line, I apologize.

Yes, I think we disagree on the matter of the food laws. Yes, I think it is an important issue. But, I certainly do not want to be perceived as belittling you personally in any sense.

I will not sugar-coat things - the view that we are still under the food laws really mystifies me. Try as I might, I cannot make the statement: "there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him" mean "there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him, except pork"

I hope you can understand why it seems odd to me that people add all sorts of exceptions to the definitive concept of nothing. Fembot, can you explain why, for you, "nothing" means "nothing except......"?

As for the matter of "rest", I would have to say that I discern no particular message from God for me in ths area of late.

 

[Vic C.]

Jesus did away with both of these, replacing them with a new kingdom model with new symbols (communion, baptism) and a new way of "being Israel". If one still thinks that Torah (e.g. the food laws) are still in force, it is hard to see how one has developed an understanding of how God's story is actually moving forward in time.

In short, to think the food laws are still in place is not to realize how history turns on the cross.

Drew, I honestly believe that ^ and Joe's post (and Dora's), should be our perfect ending to this topic and I am seriously thinking it has run it's course. I agree that proper obedience is to not take our eyes off the new and better Covenant God has laid down at the foot of the Cross, for that is where my reward awaits me.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[Drew]

Whether the law is outdated or not, those who choose live by God's laws will reap the benefits.

I am afraid that you are taking precisely the position that Paul vehemently opposes in Galatians:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law

In fact, as Paul argues in Romans, being under the law has the effect of the making the Jew more sinful:

The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

In both these texts, if we take Paul at his word and not deform what he is saying, we have the Law actually energizing sin, making it worse. No wonder Paul gets so upset at those who wish to remain under it.

Perhaps FoC will not agree, but I see Paul as saying that the Law actually increases the sinfulness of those who try to pursue it. Yes, I mean what I say and can add to the scriptural case I have begun in this post - to seek to be under the Law is to seek a state of increased sin.

 

[Drew]

For whats it worth, I have no objection if management wishes to close down this thread. In my last post, I added a new twist to the discussion - the admittedly controversial claim that the Torah actually makes the Jew more sinful. I suspect that I may stand alone on that one - I may take up that particular issue in another thread and await the onslaught that will no doubt come from many quarters.

 

[Sparkey]

May I ask that this be left open for a moment longer? I probably shouldn't because I just now PM'd Drew to explain that my son had just called and the sun is shining and the beach is waiting --but also to say that I am searching over what he wrote (taking notes) and promised a response.

There is so much agreement here that it is almost a shame to close it now, when it wasn't closed during the war?

Blessings to you, Vic C. and I will and do respect the decisions you are lead by Him to make. Hoping that you can wish me 'godspeed' in this and in all things, as this is my wish for you as well. Of course you have my hearty "amen" if that which is affectionately termed the "Pork-Wars" breaks out again into bickering amongst the saints. By all means, by any means may this be stopped according to Him whom we all love.

~Sparrow

[*EDIT]lol - my son just came over - he and g/f are going to a b-day party at the beach (with a lot of young girls :gah --- so it is with a happy heart that I hope this work will be shortened.
PostScript to Drew - I'll PM you with my quick thought about your your most recent post and see if we can meet on the same page, am sure it's of the Lord - not saying "from Him" but will then wait for his PM response. Drew? Can you hang around for a bit? I'll ask again in the PM. And I'll be looking forward to the discussion too no matter where we meet -- private or public, all good to me as the Lord leads. Am still taking notes quickly as I review your previous posts

 

[Fembot]

Whether the law is outdated or not, those who choose live by God's laws will reap the benefits.

---, but I see Paul as saying that the Law actually increases the sinfulness of those who try to pursue it. Y[/u].

Honey, I don't TRY to pursue not eating pork. I DON'T EAT IT. That's it. End of story. You're not getting anywhere, so why the

Agree to disagree, move on with your life.