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How does Pork Kill you?

Greetings, Fembot!

I hope that you've been following closely to the argument that I have taken up. It was initially taken on your behalf. I am not saying that I've taken up "your" argument though. I am severely limited when I do this if it is to be an holy thing. Please pray that when done, it can be offered to Our King!

In as much as my foot may not descend upon you to crush upon your ground --- so also may not my foot crush upon the ground of our brother. We are American and speak to one in Ontario. I say this because I see no distinctions. Where we might say, "Our forefathers died and shed blood to protect the liberties of this country," so also might our brother defend HIS LIBERTY!! The fact that blood has been shed over the issue is enough.

I must remove my sandal and venerate his holy ground as much as I do yours.
It is my plea that we become peacemakers in the spirit of all the words given by our God.

I am now pleading with my Christian Canadian to accept this token. It is a peace offering. A twig and not an arrow.

~Sparrow
 
Re: Did Jesus eat bad meat ?

Fembot said:
Yes, Jesus ate fish, not pork. All pork has worms, not all fish. Yes, nothing is wrong with properly prepared, unclean worms. :-)
Just one excuse after another from you to keep from accepting the facts, isnt it ? ;)
I debate your type all day long, sister, and I know that God the Father Himself telling you face to face wouldnt change your mind, so what chance does Paul or Jesus have in the matter.
You keep clutching the law and keep trying to be justified by it...the rest of us who know better will continue to enjoy our FREEDOM in Christ to eat any meat we desire to :)


God bless.
 
Drew said:
Sparrowhawke said:
Even if she were wrong about the scripture she quoted (she isn't) that does not mean we should try to wrestle it away (and I know this isn't the case).
She is wrong - the statement is taken entirely out of context. The statement that Fembot quoted represents Peter's view before the lesson is to begin. And the lesson is that Gentiles are clean and that Peter is to see this in terms of the foods that Gentile eat now being declared to be clean.
And she IS wrong.
And to say that we shouldnt 'wrestle it away' is to say that we should ALLOW false teachings that would put us BACK under law to prevail.
Paul, in Galatians and elsewhere, would hardly agree that allowing ourselves to be put back under that yoke of bondage is acceptable.
 
people letts agree to disagree on this even the hebrews who recieved from the lord the law couldnt keep it so why should the gentiles be put under it.

jason
 
Drew said:
Sparrowhawke said:
According to Peter what was being spoken about in the vision was gentiles (allophulos
We have, of course, been down this road before. Your argument appears to be based on the following (demonstrably incorrect) reasoning: Since ultimate point is about the cleanness of the Gentiles, Peter cannot be told the additional thing that all foods are now unclean.
And wouldnt it be a bit idiotic of GOD to use UNCLEAN animals to try to make the point He was making with Peter ?
ONLY IF the animals WERE now 'clean' would the point make any sense.
There appear to be some who believe that since the main lesson of Acts 10 is that Gentiles are to be seen as clean, it is therefore “impossible†that the animals on the sheet are also being declared clean.
Which would be absurdity.
Only if the animals God is USING that WERE unclean but are now CLEAN does the vision make any sense whatsoever.
There almost seems to be a belief that Paul is not allowed to declare more than one thing clean in a single argument. Where does that rule come from? In this passage both the animals and the Gentiles are being declared clean. In fact, a declaration that that the animals are clean is the very basis for the wider point that the Gentiles are clean – one of the primary reasons the Jew deemed the Gentile to be unclean is that the Gentile ate the unclean foods.
Exactly !
Its amazing how such a simple concept can be twisted so easily.
 
jasoncran said:
people letts agree to disagree on this even the hebrews who recieved from the lord the law couldnt keep it so why should the gentiles be put under it.

jason
Cant happen because *IF* we agree to disagree then someone here (and I'll bet money on who) will say that we are just accepting 'sin' which WE as followers of Christ are to turn from.
There can be no concession with sin....and if we say it IS sin but simply 'cant keep it' then we are giving in TO sin.

Sorry but the fact is that NO meat is 'unclean' in this new covenant.
Im afraid FB and any others who think otherwise will just have to learn to accept that fact. And if they wont they will just have to go on believing that we are 'sinning' until God sets them straight in the matter.

:)
 
Drew said:
Readers - do not be misled; just because the object of the lesson is that Gentiles are clean, this does not mean that the foods are not also being declared clean. It appears that this is what is being implied by sparrow - that since the main point is that Gentiles are clean, there cannot be a parallel assertion that foods are also declared clean.

That is manifestly incorrect logic. If that is not your argument, please set me straight as to what your argument is.
Agreed.
*IF* the comparison is to work then the MEATS also have to be clean.
Its really not that complicated a concept folks.
 
Re: Did Jesus eat bad meat ?

Fembot said:
Yes, Jesus ate fish, not pork. All pork has worms, not all fish. Yes, nothing is wrong with properly prepared, unclean worms. :-)
btw, FB...not that it matters in the least,but you made an assertion there that I want to see conclusive evidence for when you have the chance.
:)
 
Sparrowhawke said:
Again, I am limiting my discussion here.
  • First it is written only to those who have been given by the Holy Spirit an "ear to hear". That is quickly followed by my prayer, "Let them hear, Lord." [/*:m:3aop8bt9]
  • Secondly I only addressed your conclusion as it was drawn from the writings of Paul.[/*:m:3aop8bt9]
  • & Third and upon this I must insist, as already stated, My argument is mine.[/*:m:3aop8bt9]
You might not see the wisdom in my voluntary limits but they do restrict me and not you. Why object?

~Sparrow
Because the second you TEACH YOUR limitations to another man you are making them HIS limitations..and when those limitations ARENT in line with Gods word it makes you a 'false' teacher.
Make sense ?
:)
 
follower of Christ said:
jasoncran said:
people letts agree to disagree on this even the hebrews who recieved from the lord the law couldnt keep it so why should the gentiles be put under it.

jason
Cant happen because *IF* we agree to disagree then someone here (and I'll bet money on who) will say that we are just accepting 'sin' which WE as followers of Christ are to turn from.
There can be no concession with sin....and if we say it IS sin but simply 'cant keep it' then we are giving in TO sin.

Sorry but the fact is that NO meat is 'unclean' in this new covenant.
Im afraid FB and any others who think otherwise will just have to learn to accept that fact. And if they wont they will just have to go on believing that we are 'sinning' until God sets them straight in the matter.

:)
i'm not saying that she's right but the incessant proofs while true aren't going to convince her let it rest and pray for her jesus will change her, if u want to ur church and was convicted of a sin and were rebellious the lord and didn't go to the alter or repent and the pastor followed home continually talking to about that issue ud either repent or be rude or worse punches would be thrown,

no when to stop and let jesus say it to her, i say that in love, she's young in christ, i did the same things like her we all did, legalism comes in many forms

jason
 
Re: Did Jesus eat bad meat ?

follower of Christ said:
Fembot said:
Yes, Jesus ate fish, not pork. All pork has worms, not all fish. Yes, nothing is wrong with properly prepared, unclean worms. :-)
Just one excuse after another from you to keep from accepting the facts, isnt it ? ;)
I debate your type all day long, sister, and I know that God the Father Himself telling you face to face wouldnt change your mind, so what chance does Paul or Jesus have in the matter.
You keep clutching the law and keep trying to be justified by it...the rest of us who know better will continue to enjoy our FREEDOM in Christ to eat any meat we desire to :)


God bless.

How DARE you tell me that I would deny God?
Can somebody say ISSUES... :crazy
 
follower of Christ said:
jasoncran said:
people letts agree to disagree on this even the hebrews who recieved from the lord the law couldnt keep it so why should the gentiles be put under it.

jason
Cant happen because *IF* we agree to disagree then someone here (and I'll bet money on who) will say that we are just accepting 'sin' which WE as followers of Christ are to turn from.
There can be no concession with sin....and if we say it IS sin but simply 'cant keep it' then we are giving in TO sin.

Sorry but the fact is that NO meat is 'unclean' in this new covenant.
Im afraid FB and any others who think otherwise will just have to learn to accept that fact. And if they wont they will just have to go on believing that we are 'sinning' until God sets them straight in the matter.

:)
:gavel

I don't want you for a daddy :-)

I'd rather be wrong on this AND be found a devoted follower. I may not be perfect, but I'm sure God appreciates that I am making an effort towards keeping His temple clean.
 
Wow, I remember back in the '70's someone wrote to Ann Landers regarding the proper way to hang toilet paper: With the end hanging on the outside of the roll or with the end hanging on the inside of the roll. That single letter prompted more letters to an advice column on a single subject ever and as far as I know there hasn't been any single subject that has prompted more since.

Except perhaps now.

The only thing is, how to hang toilet paper truly is a trivial matter.

I don't believe this is a trivial matter at all.

Earlier today I asked Fembot why she quoted Peter's response to the Lord in his vision regarding the unclean animals and yet didn't go on to the Lord's very next statement, "What the Lord has now cleansed, no longer consider unholy." And, I didn't mean my question to indicate that Fembot was being deceptive in her POV, but rather to bring up an issue. (Then I had to take off for the day, and didn't get around to amplifying my point. Until now.)

This is a truly important vision and it's ramifications are profound. There has been much discussion as to whether or not the vision was meant to signify what to eat or was it that the gentiles were now open to receive the Lord's blessings or both.

The truth is, that it was all that and more.

The very first theological heresy that the infant Church had to deal with was Judeaising. The Judeaisers were very religious Jews who were teaching that OK, the gentiles were now able to receive God's blessings, but only if they put themselves under the Law of Moses. Almost all of Romans, Hebrews and a good portion of the other epistles were written to teach the truth regarding this heresy. Indeed, a significant part of Paul's apostleship was to not only preach to the Gentiles, but convince them to ignore the Judeaisers who desired to put them under the Law.

Someone earlier on this thread mentioned that one of the reason why the vision took the shape that it did was that the Gentiles ate all these "unclean" animals. The animals were cleansed, as were the Gentiles who ate them. Jesus did, in fact, fulfill the Law. Therefore, what was once unclean is now clean.

The Law, with it's requirements to be circumcised, to eat only that which was clean, to observed certain days, times, and festivals, was all fulfilled. Christ's atoning work on the cross fulfilled the purpose of the Law by finally cleaning all of unholiness. The old covenant, the Law, has passed away.

I can say it no better than the writer to the Hebrews:

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13

The question has been asked in various ways, "When did God say it was OK to eat pork."

Here is the answer:
Not eating pork was part of the Old Covenant. But that old covenant is finished, it is obsolete, it has been replaced.

I now submit a different question: "Under the new Covenant, is eating pork considered unclean?"
And the answer to that is NO. There are no dietary restrictions under the new covenant.

Under the new Covenant, it matters not what is placed into one's mouth. As has been repeated a number of times, our Lord pointed out in a very frank and blunt way, that what goes into the mouth is digested and then eliminated. Under the new Covenant, it's not what goes into the mouth that matters, but what comes out of it. It is not a Covenant of Laws that is superimposed upon one's person. It is...well, the Lord Himself tells us what the New Covenant is:

"For this is the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God and they shall be My people. And they shall NOT teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying 'Know that Lord' for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

The key difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is Pentecost, my friends. Pentecost means that under the New Covenant, each and every one of us has the Spirit of God dwelling within us. It is the Spirit who will convict us as to what is right and what is wrong. This is why it is true that if a person thinks that it is sin to eat pork, then for THAT person, it is. This is why we are to be so careful not to place ourselves as a stumbling block before our brother, because the Lord is doing a work within each of our hearts, dependent upon where each person is in their individual walk with God.

The reason why Judeaising is such an insidious heresy is that it seeks to separate the person from the Holy Spirit and place them under a predetermined list of do's and don'ts. It effectively negates Christ's finished work on the cross within the heart of the believer.

We can all share with one another our wisdom and our opinions of what is considered righteous and unrighteous under the New Covenant. But, we must not, must not seek to put back into place that which the Lord Himself has declared obsolete.

As far as issues of what to eat, what to drink, what days to worship on, what festivals to embrace, all these things we have freedom in Christ. Under the New Covenant, if the Spirit dwelling within one doesn't convict one regarding these non-essential things, then enjoy your freedom. Just don't let your freedom become a stumbling block to another, for the Spirit might convict your neighbor on something, for whatever reason. This is life under the new covenant.
 
follower of Christ said:
Sparrowhawke said:
Again, I am limiting my discussion here.
  • First it is written only to those who have been given by the Holy Spirit an "ear to hear". That is quickly followed by my prayer, "Let them hear, Lord." [/*:m:3v3eu0t8]
  • Secondly I only addressed your conclusion as it was drawn from the writings of Paul.[/*:m:3v3eu0t8]
  • & Third and upon this I must insist, as already stated, My argument is mine.[/*:m:3v3eu0t8]
You might not see the wisdom in my voluntary limits but they do restrict me and not you. Why object?

~Sparrow
Because the second you TEACH YOUR limitations to another man you are making them HIS limitations..and when those limitations ARENT in line with Gods word it makes you a 'false' teacher.
Make sense ?
:)

I've been asked if it makes sense to me.
Frankly no.
My reply is, "When have I taught more than liberty?" Point to it or admit you are casting to the wind.

~SparrowHawke
 
Re: Did Jesus eat bad meat ?

Fembot said:
How DARE you tell me that I would deny God?
Can somebody say ISSUES... :crazy
While we're getting offended have you apologized to the person here who is getting a pigs heart valve with your nonsense about defiling the 'image' of God ?
:)
 
Fembot said:
I don't want you for a daddy :-)
The feeling is mutual :)
I'd rather be wrong on this AND be found a devoted follower. I may not be perfect, but I'm sure God appreciates that I am making an effort towards keeping His temple clean.
And thats fine that you wish to live in such a manner. But you ARENT allowed to go twisting the truth to suit YOUR convictions. :)
If you feel convicted to abstain from pork, then more power to ya...no wrong there.
But when you TEACH others that they MUST do so..and when you OFFEND a brother seeking a heart operation over the matter, then you have crossed a line you arent authorized to cross...nor am I.
God word shows VERY clearly that animals are NO LONGER 'unclean'...therefore if you teach otherwise you ARE teaching falsely and have to be exposed in the matter.
Its nothing personal sister...its just business :)
 
I didn't even read your post. That's how over this is.
 
jasoncran said:
mod please lock this thread as its dead


No Jason, someone else might have something to say. But I'm done, for now.
 
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