How far should we go with enforcing sinlessness on non believers?

[Chris]

I have a question that has been bothering me as a christian.

This is not a pro gay thread or an excuse to argue about it so please dont..please! The mods will just delete it if you do! It is about free choice only.

Recently here in Australia the gay community have been pushing for equal rights and legalized marriages.

Many christian groups vocally and to some degree nastily opposed it.

As a christian I dont really support the gay movement it but as fellow person I do support the right to free choice without someone enforcing their beliefs on others.


For the sake of this thread you could insert any practice non Christians do in place of the example I used that opposes our doctrine.

Smoking and drinking alcohol to excess directly oppose scripture and harm more people.


My understanding of the christian faith involves a few steps towards salvation.

1. Treat a person will love and kindness.
2. Share the gospel with someone who respects and likes you.
3.Tell of the need for repentance for sin and the available reconciliation through Jesus.
4. Watch the holy spirit change someone and help them overcome sin in their life after salvation.


This his vehement opposition some christian groups do and making people abstain from what is perceived as sin seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse in relation to repentance of sin and is possibly driving people away from us and making them hate us.

For the life of me I cant work out how making someones life hard is going to win any converts.


Imagine the Muslims making my home state a Sharia one and dictating to me how I will live my life according to their beliefs. It worries me we are trying to do similar..

This is bugging me...should we? Is it the right thing to do because we think it is.

Are we driving potential believers away by the image we are portraying of our intolerance?

What do we stand to gain from intolerance?

Sorry guys lots of questions......

John 7>
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%207:53-8:11&version=NIVUK

look at the order of things

compassion > understanding> love> non judgement> repentance.

 

[Tina]

We need to be able to strike a Godly balance in rightfully admonishing sins and at the same time not going overboard in pointing fingers and accusing. We certainly don't want to end up being resisted and disgraced like the Westboro Baptist Church, with the potential stubbing out of whatever chances the unbelievers have of getting saved. I believe the best way of dealing with gays and other unbelieving sinners is to pray for them regularly that God will intervene and give them a strong consciousness of their need for Him.

 

[WIP]

I have a question that has been bothering me as a christian.

This is not a pro gay thread or an excuse to argue about it so please dont..please! The mods will just delete it if you do! It is about free choice only.

Recently here in Australia the gay community have been pushing for equal rights and legalized marriages.

Many christian groups vocally and to some degree nastily opposed it.

As a christian I dont really support the gay movement it but as fellow person I do support the right to free choice without someone enforcing their beliefs on others.


For the sake of this thread you could insert any practice non Christians do in place of the example I used that opposes our doctrine.

Smoking and drinking alcohol to excess directly oppose scripture and harm more people.


My understanding of the christian faith involves a few steps towards salvation.

1. Treat a person will love and kindness.
2. Share the gospel with someone who respects and likes you.
3.Tell of the need for repentance for sin and the available reconciliation through Jesus.
4. Watch the holy spirit change someone and help them overcome sin in their life after salvation.


This his vehement opposition some christian groups do and making people abstain from what is perceived as sin seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse in relation to repentance of sin and is possibly driving people away from us and making them hate us.

For the life of me I cant work out how making someones life hard is going to win any converts.


Imagine the Muslims making my home state a Sharia one and dictating to me how I will live my life according to their beliefs. It worries me we are trying to do similar..

This is bugging me...should we? Is it the right thing to do because we think it is.

Are we driving potential believers away by the image we are portraying of our intolerance?

What do we stand to gain from intolerance?

Sorry guys lots of questions......

John 7>
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 7:53-8:11&version=NIVUK

look at the order of things

compassion > understanding> love> non judgement> repentance.

How would you feel if there was an element of organized crime pushing for equal rights and legalized murder, extortion, or any other follie they pursue?

We opppose those sinful ideas don't we? It just happens a majority of non-Christians agree with us because the common ground is that these activities would more likely have a direct impact on our lives.

Sin is sin and we should oppose it, shouldn't we?

 

[Chris]

How would you feel if there was an element of organized crime pushing for equal rights and legalized murder, extortion, or any other follie they pursue?

We opppose those sinful ideas don't we? It just happens a majority of non-Christians agree with us because the common ground is that these activities would more likely have a direct impact on our lives.

Sin is sin and we should oppose it, shouldn't we?

Yes and no. Look at the verse I put in. Jesus wasn't throwing stones. I liken our hard stance to throwing stones. For members of our congregation sure encourage repentance. For people that have nothing to do with us why force them to abide by what we want. They are no threat to us. Wouldn't free will conversion and repentance be our goal for people over forcing our will.

 

[Chris]

We need to be able to strike a Godly balance in rightfully admonishing sins and at the same time not going overboard in pointing fingers and accusing. We certainly don't want to end up being resisted and disgraced like the Westboro Baptist Church, with the potential stubbing out of whatever chances the unbelievers have of getting saved. I believe the best way of dealing with gays and other unbelieving sinners is to pray for them regularly that God will intervene and give them a strong consciousness of their need for Him.

I think if we are going to oppose and force the public to abide by our ideology then just as all sin is equal then all people must be forced to stop all sinful activities. You see what I mean if you do for one why don't we do for all? Why don't churches unite and force night club closure because it hurts kids morally.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

We need to recognize the difference between sin that harms the self and sin that harms others. Acceptance of homosexuality would seem like a case of the former but it is in truth the latter. We, as a society, are accepting more and more evil in our midst with every passing decade. This acceptance leads to more and more people travelling down a sinful path, these people are condemned to hell because of our acceptance. We let casual sex, drug and alcohol abuse, homosexuality, and countless other sins be pushed upon our children and it is our fault when our children succumb to temptation. If you allow these evils to fester in your home it's your fault if your son falls. If you allow these evils to fester in your town it's your fault when your neighbor falls. If we allow these evils to fester in our nation it's our fault when millions follow the path of sin.

Just because Jesus tells you to put down your stone does not mean you must accept the sins of the wicked. Nobody's stoning gays in the streets, but that doesn't mean we need to accept their deviant lifestyle and allow them to spread their wicked ways to others. Sometimes it absolutely is acceptable to accuse and condemn the wicked.

 

[Hitch]

I think if we are going to oppose and force the public to abide by our ideology then just as all sin is equal then all people must be forced to stop all sinful activities. You see what I mean if you do for one why don't we do for all? Why don't churches unite and force night club closure because it hurts kids morally.

Who told you all sin is equal?

 

[Hitch]

We need to recognize the difference between sin that harms the self and sin that harms others. Acceptance of homosexuality would seem like a case of the former but it is in truth the latter. We, as a society, are accepting more and more evil in our midst with every passing decade. This acceptance leads to more and more people travelling down a sinful path, these people are condemned to hell because of our acceptance. We let casual sex, drug and alcohol abuse, homosexuality, and countless other sins be pushed upon our children and it is our fault when our children succumb to temptation. If you allow these evils to fester in your home it's your fault if your son falls. If you allow these evils to fester in your town it's your fault when your neighbor falls. If we allow these evils to fester in our nation it's our fault when millions follow the path of sin.

Just because Jesus tells you to put down your stone does not mean you must accept the sins of the wicked. Nobody's stoning gays in the streets, but that doesn't mean we need to accept their deviant lifestyle and allow them to spread their wicked ways to others. Sometimes it absolutely is acceptable to accuse and condemn the wicked.

 

[Chris]

I guess what I am saying is is it acceptable that we force compliance of the ten commandments or Jesus teachings on an atheist or a Buddhist?

 

[ChristianNationalist]

The commandments should be the very bedrock of our legal system, so yes.

 

[Hitch]

I guess what I am saying is is it acceptable that we force compliance of the ten commandments or Jesus teachings on an atheist or a Buddhist?

No , I think Buhddist should be encouraged to murder Australians, that would be no threat to us, so who cares? And besides its no more of a sin than spitting on the sidewalk ,,right?

 

[ivorhughjarse]

Jesus went to the prostitute shouting "you Harlot you will go to hell" the thieving Tax collector he refused to share a meal with because of the sin of this extortioner. The woman at the well, he did not tell her anything about her life because she was an adulteress. Oh no! sorry he did the opposite and showed love

 

[Hitch]

Jesus went to the prostitute shouting "you Harlot you will go to hell" the thieving Tax collector he refused to share a meal with because of the sin of this extortioner. The woman at the well, he did not tell her anything about her life because she was an adulteress. Oh no! sorry he did the opposite and showed love

And still he did tell other sinners that they would indeed go to hell, time and place for everything eh?

 

[Hitch]

As Touches the Law

<sup id="en-NIVUK-26373" class="versenum">7</sup> When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. <sup id="en-NIVUK-26374" class="versenum">8</sup> Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
<sup id="en-NIVUK-26375" class="versenum">9</sup> At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
<sup id="en-NIVUK-26376" class="versenum">10</sup> Jesus straightened up and asked her, Woman, where are they? Has no-one condemned you?
<sup id="en-NIVUK-26377" class="versenum">11</sup> No-one, sir, she said. Then neither do I condemn you, Jesus declared. Go now and leave your life of sin.

The same law that made adultery a capital crime required two or more witnesses who were personally with out guilt.

Lots of folks try to show Jesus abrogating the Law when in fact he followed the law to the letter , letting the woman go on a technicality, and an admonishment.

 

[Chris]

Jesus went to the prostitute shouting "you Harlot you will go to hell" the thieving Tax collector he refused to share a meal with because of the sin of this extortioner. The woman at the well, he did not tell her anything about her life because she was an adulteress. Oh no! sorry he did the opposite and showed love

Yay!!!!!!!

 

[ivorhughjarse]

And still he did tell other sinners that they would indeed go to hell, time and place for everything eh?

Agreed... and looking back would I prefer to be one of those sinners Jesus forgave of a self Righteous Pharisee who continually condemned everyone. ....makes you think eh?

 

[Hitch]

Agreed... and looking back would I prefer to be one of those sinners Jesus forgave of a self Righteous Pharisee who continually condemned everyone. ....makes you think eh?

Actually the worst place to be is the ' Jesus was a great teacher but',,,,:waving

 

[Sparkey]

Idolatry is a sin right up there with all the sins listed that even Gentiles should be admonished to stay away from.

As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. - (Act 21:25 KJV)

But notice that Paul made the distinction, "as touching the Gentiles which believe..."

When he went to Rome he preached about the "unknown God" and used their pagan beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) to teach about the One True God. This principle of accepting the beliefs of unbelievers, but not condoning them for believers, still applies.

 

[Ace1234]

The commandments should be the very bedrock of our legal system, so yes.

Actually the 10 commandments are the bedrock of the legal system, most law stems from past religious law in all cultures.

We only have to look at church history when the church enforced the law, sadly, they were most brutal, torture and death were common, it took time for secular law to win out over the church.

One, we cannot enforce behavior, sure, you can outlaw it, but if people feel they are who they are or want to do things they will. I think often when you outlaw behavior based on morality all you do is send people to the closet where behaviors become even more perverted.

In the past it was black and white, now it's many shades of grey.

 

[Hitch]

Actually the 10 commandments are the bedrock of the legal system, most law stems from past religious law in all cultures.

We only have to look at church history when the church enforced the law, sadly, they were most brutal, torture and death were common, it took time for secular law to win out over the church.

Really which 'church ' are you referring to ?

One, we cannot enforce behavior, sure, you can outlaw it, but if people feel they are who they are or want to do things they will. I think often when you outlaw behavior based on morality all you do is send people to the closet where behaviors become even more perverted.

Paul said thats where those things belong, telling us it is a shame to even speak of them .

In the past it was black and white, now it's many shades of grey.