How far should we go with enforcing sinlessness on non believers?

[WIP]

Yes and no. Look at the verse I put in. Jesus wasn't throwing stones. I liken our hard stance to throwing stones. For members of our congregation sure encourage repentance. For people that have nothing to do with us why force them to abide by what we want. They are no threat to us. Wouldn't free will conversion and repentance be our goal for people over forcing our will.

Is it what we want or what God commands? How does intolerance relate to leavening? God is intolerant with all sin. Are we to conform to the world or stand with God apart from the world?

 

[ivorhughjarse]

be careful with the measure of forgiveness that we give to others with their filthy visible sin or what if God uses the same measure of forgiveness on us with our filthy secret sin.

 

[Chris]

Is it what we want or what God commands? How does intolerance relate to leavening? God is intolerant with all sin. Are we to conform to the world or stand with God apart from the world?

Its easy to say that but what concept i am examining is the forced christian sharia state model that overrides
peoples free will to choose.

You guys have decided for everyone else in the world how they are going to live their lives according to your will?

Gods will is one thing but enforcing it on others is your will. You have a right to choose how you treat potential Christians in sin. you can force your will for thier lives or... Don't mistake gods will for our own will. There often can be a big difference. god is flawless and never wrong. We are the opposite.


Did someone force you guys to stop sinning to bring you to gods love and salvation or did you put it at the cross of Jesus in gratitude in exchange for the love and acceptance you received? Answer honestly!

 

[Hitch]

Its easy to say that but what concept i am examining is the forced christian sharia state model that overrides
peoples free will to choose.

You guys have decided for everyone else in the world how they are going to live their lives according to your will?

Gods will is one thing but enforcing it on others is your will. You have a right to choose how you treat potential Christians in sin. you can force your will for thier lives or... Don't mistake gods will for our own will. There often can be a big difference. god is flawless and never wrong. We are the opposite.


Did someone force you guys to stop sinning to bring you to gods love and salvation or did you put it at the cross of Jesus in gratitude in exchange for the love and acceptance you received? Answer honestly!

With very few exceptions ( I cant think of even one) all of our laws are designed to keep someone from sinning. So yes there is a great deal of force involved.

 

[Chris]

With very few exceptions ( I cant think of even one) all of our laws are designed to keep someone from sinning.

that for sure is a fair comment hitch and largely our law system was founded on the ten commandments and now has many secular laws added. for sure I am in Cavour of enforcing the laws of our land. That really goes with out saying.

Could we force someone to honour your mother and father and you will live in the land the lord has given you if they dont feel led to? because that is sin

 

[Hitch]

that for sure is a fair comment hitch and largely our law system was founded on the ten commandments and now has many secular laws added. for sure I am in Cavour of enforcing the laws of our land. That really goes with out saying.

Could we force someone to lhonour your mother and father and you will live in the land the lord has given you?

Carfefull Chris, laws are never made in a moral void, they are by nature moral as well as legal requirements .

 

[Chris]

I am going to drive you guys nuts. While I dont condone sin in myself or others I also value the right to free choice as it is the foundation cornerstone of great western countries and democracies. Look at Americas freedom of speech and ability to freely vote. America is built on christian values and free choice and it it is how it became a great nation. Nations that struggle are ones that oppress peoples right to freedom.

this is the duality of my thoughts my belief in freedom of choice vs enforcing what I believe to be gods will over someones life on them. I dont mind gently encouraging people to avoid sinful activities.

 

[Hitch]

I am going to drive you guys nuts. While I dont condone sin in myself or others I also value the right to free choice as it is the foundation cornerstone of great western countries and democracies. Look at Americas freedom of speech and ability to freely vote. America is built on christian values and free choice and it it is how it became a great nation. nations that struggle are ones that oppress peoples right to freedom.

And our ideal is that true 'rights' come from Heaven.

 

[Chris]

Thanks guys for giving me your opinions on this, i know it was a not very simple question, and I have read all your comments and am considering them.

 

[WIP]

Its easy to say that but what concept i am examining is the forced christian sharia state model that overrides
peoples free will to choose.

You guys have decided for everyone else in the world how they are going to live their lives according to your will?

Gods will is one thing but enforcing it on others is your will. You have a right to choose how you treat potential Christians in sin. you can force your will for thier lives or... Don't mistake gods will for our own will. There often can be a big difference. god is flawless and never wrong. We are the opposite.


Did someone force you guys to stop sinning to bring you to gods love and salvation or did you put it at the cross of Jesus in gratitude in exchange for the love and acceptance you received? Answer honestly!

I'm curious. You keep using the phrase "force your will" upon others. How does my opposing another person's view force them to adhere to my view? Please explain.

 

[Chris]

I'm curious. You keep using the phrase "force your will" upon others. How does my opposing another person's view force them to adhere to my view? Please explain.

I should have explained this better, its not you personally I am referring to.

I meant you as a collective group of Christians

here in Australia the christian churches started a media campaign against gay marriages. i saw it at church as a presentation and it was very biased and lacking any credible references as to how it would endanger marriage in Australia or why it should be stopped for that reason. If it had some concret e info it might have won me over. it was a political agenda recruiting christian voices as a blocker.

A local church wrote a letter to the local paper and it enraged some people so much they put graffiti on the church as retribution. that's what i mean about dictating our will on others.

I think that is really wrong to do this to people not of our faith. I think enraging other people is not our way. It doesn't feel right to me.

 

[Hitch]

I should have explained this better, its not you personally I am referring to.

I meant you as a collective group of Christians

here in Australia the christian churches started a media campaign against gay marriages. i saw it at church as a presentation and it was very biased and lacking any credible references as to how it would endanger marriage in Australia or why it should be stopped for that reason.

A local church wrote a letter to the local paper and it enraged some people so much they put graffiti on the church as retribution. that's what i mean about dictating our will on others.

Thats what I thought. A christian group working within the law should be faulted while opposers are pardoned for vandalism . 2

I think that is really wrong to do this to people not of our faith. I think enraging other people is not our way. It doesn't feel right to me.

And those nasty people who put heir money in those banks?? What do they expect its their own fault, if they didnt put the money in the bank no one would rob it.

 

[jasoncran]

as a former bisexual what keep me from acting on it was the culture (while not the best way dealing with the lbgt) of shunning it. today i would had been encouraged to be gay at times.

im not for beating up gays but i cant support the gays in their mariages. here the gays will have rights sooner or later and it will come to a religious choice for the christians to support them with insurance benefits. that is the choice we are made to do.

i choose no, if they want to live together then that their right but marriage and benefits of that no.

 

[Chris]

Il jump in here before this changes. this thread is not about gay is correct it is about us choosing to suppress the choices of others and it could be for anything. Try exchanging my original topic for another example.

Smoking....for example harms everyone all the time.

Night clubs etc.

TV is the worst offender for corrupting peoples minds to becoming anti christian or immoral. If christinas stood up to boycott immoral media I might get on on that bandwagon! Coz thats the biggest culprit.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I was raised by liberal Presbyterians. I was taught from an early age to be "personally conservative, politically liberal." Basically, people who aren't in Christ are going to sin, and sometimes "harm reduction" is the most humane and practical way on handling sin in an increasingly dark world with a decaying social order and ever-growing emphasis on self and "feelings" and the heart.

Of course, I had to go to a Pentecostal Rehab for 1 year. I made the mistake of being personally and politically liberal. Whoops. There I was exposed to a more conservative, politically active form of Christianity. There is a certain fervor to it, but I get the sense that they can be easily misled by politicos and ambitious preachers, not because of stupidity or anything, but because of the intensity of their devotion to both God and a certain way of living.

So, I don't know. Pope John Paul II called our new found "rights" (gay rights, abortion rights, no-fault divorce, etc.) and their consequences the "Culture of Death." And he was right, you know? When a society is so idolatrous and filled with self-love that it celebrates same-sex unions and tolerates divorce and drug abuse and abortion, that society is worshipping death and is itself approaching death. I just don't know what Christians can do about it from a practical standpoint. Fall into the hands of ambitious politicos who will abandon us once the poll numbers change? Not prudent.

I've come to think of The Gospel as a call to personal, inner-transformation which then makes itself known in observable behavior. As a man thinketh, so is he. Maybe the solution might just be to get more troubled people into our churches, to offer a moral and maybe even intellectual challenge to the decay and decadence and death around us. I think that might be more effective than TV campaigns and pushing for legislation.

 

[Chris]

I was raised by liberal Presbyterians. I was taught from an early age to be "personally conservative, politically liberal." Basically, people who aren't in Christ are going to sin, and sometimes "harm reduction" is the most humane and practical way on handling sin in an increasingly dark world with a decaying social order and ever-growing emphasis on self and "feelings" and the heart.

Of course, I had to go to a Pentecostal Rehab for 1 year. I made the mistake of being personally and politically liberal. Whoops. There I was exposed to a more conservative, politically active form of Christianity. There is a certain fervor to it, but I get the sense that they can be easily misled by politicos and ambitious preachers, not because of stupidity or anything, but because of the intensity of their devotion to both God and a certain way of living.

So, I don't know. Pope John Paul II called our new found "rights" (gay rights, abortion rights, no-fault divorce, etc.) and their consequences the "Culture of Death." And he was right, you know? When a society is so idolatrous and filled with self-love that it celebrates same-sex unions and tolerates divorce and drug abuse and abortion, that society is worshipping death and is itself approaching death. I just don't know what Christians can do about it from a practical standpoint. Fall into the hands of ambitious politicos who will abandon us once the poll numbers change? Not prudent.

I've come to think of The Gospel as a call to personal, inner-transformation which then makes itself known in observable behavior. As a man thinketh, so is he. Maybe the solution might just be to get more troubled people into our churches, to offer a moral and maybe even intellectual challenge to the decay and decadence and death around us. I think that might be more effective than TV campaigns and pushing for legislation.

I was just thinking about this and how I approach people. On the bus just then three people got on. They were a step away from homeless and broke they initiated a chat with me and were so friendly. These guys are real hard up. I know I could help change thier lives as I have the resources to do it. They left the bus before me.

Thier greatest need from me was polite conversation kindness, a non judgmental attitude and loving concern.

 

[Ace1234]

This country wasn't founded not intended to be a theocracy, we can't force morality of our liking.

Why I accept certain morals, I wouldn't legally force my morals on anyone, that isn't freedom of choice.

The early church was strong on enforcing religious morals through laws and it became very corrupt, our legal system would be just as corrupt in doing so. Many choices on morals are taught by parents, churches, etc....not forced, that's the way it should be. I certainly wouldn't want a certain religious group forcing it's morals on me or my family against my consent.

 

[Hitch]

This country wasn't founded not intended to be a theocracy,

<dl><dd>Our fathers' God to Thee,</dd><dd>Author of liberty,</dd><dd>To Thee we sing.</dd><dd>Long may our land be bright,</dd><dd>With freedom's holy light,</dd><dd>Protect us by Thy might,</dd><dd>Great God our King.

</dd></dl>

we can't force morality of our liking.

Why I accept certain morals, I wouldn't legally force my morals on anyone, that isn't freedom of choice.

Prohibiting murder is a moral stance like it or not

The early church was strong on enforcing religious morals through laws and it became very corrupt, our legal system would be just as corrupt in doing so. Many choices on morals are taught by parents, churches, etc....not forced, that's the way it should be. I certainly wouldn't want a certain religious group forcing it's morals on me or my family against my consent.

As Christian believers we are entrusted with the best moral/civil code and Im not about to apologize to anyone about it. Part of our commission is to bring the Light to the world and that cannot be done without practical application.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Hitch has a point. Our laws reflect someone's morals (even if they don't necessarily protect the interests of the masses). I used to think that the fight was between Christianity and a sort of post-modern, relativist amorality. I see now that its really a fight between good and evil, with evil putting on its most modern, up-to-date garb to disguise its true identity: the path to the grave.

 

[Hitch]

Hitch has a point. Our laws reflect someone's morals (even if they don't necessarily protect the interests of the masses). I used to think that the fight was between Christianity and a sort of post-modern, relativist amorality. I see now that its really a fight between good and evil, with evil putting on its most modern, up-to-date garb to disguise its true identity: the path to the grave.

Our laws reflect someone's morals