How far should we go with enforcing sinlessness on non believers?

[ezrider]

I guess what I am saying is is it acceptable that we force compliance of the ten commandments or Jesus teachings on an atheist or a Buddhist?

Chris, I understand your thoughts here. Might I suggest reading Micah chapter 4, with particular emphasis on versus 4-5 (KJV).

 

[Sparkey]

Chris, I understand your thoughts here. Might I suggest reading Micah chapter 4, with particular emphasis on versus 4-5 (KJV).

Sparrow looks down at his shoes and pretends to be the most humble man on earth, "I live to serve..."

:waving Micah, chapter 4 it is: (I like the Hebrew Names Version)

But in the latter days, It will happen that the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established on the top of the mountains, And it will be exalted above the hills; And peoples will stream to it. Many nations will go and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, And to the house of the God of Ya`akov; And he will teach us of his ways, And we will walk in his paths." For out of Tziyon will go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Yerushalayim; And he will judge between many peoples, And will decide concerning strong nations afar off. They will beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Neither will they learn war any more.

(vs 4&5): But they will sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; And no one will make them afraid: For the mouth of the LORD of Hosts has spoken. Indeed all the nations may walk in the name of their gods; But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God forever and ever.

"In that day," says the LORD, "I will assemble that which is lame, And I will gather that which is driven away, And that which I have afflicted; And I will make that which was lame a remnant, And that which was cast far off a strong nation: And the LORD will reign over them on Mount Tziyon from then on, even forever.

(Mic 4:1-7 HNV)

 

[Chris]

the words that stod out to me was in that verse was "he will not make them afraid". They seemed peaceful verses. I like that!

 

[modernnihilst]

As a nonbeliever I have a unique view of Christianity "forcing sinlessness on non believers." For example this past sunday I went to a church by me(no idea of the denomination) simply to see what is being preached/taught, mostly to see if it was still the hellfire and damnation routine from my childhood that was part of what sent me away in the first place, it was a plesant experience for the most part, HOWEVER, after the mass I stayed to talk to some of the church goers and during the conversation my own current beliefs were brought up. I was told that without a doubt because of my past history and current beliefs that I would "be sent to hell, insert hellfire and damnnation speach here" after all this the practically insisted that I be "saved" right then and there, when I attempted to explain that I ws not ready to "be saved" that my intentions were simply to "test the waters"(I was respectfull I thought I sat in the back, dressed correctly, didnt even mock nothing in my head) they(the churchgoers) all but told me to not bother comming back. Honestly it has put me off the church for the time being untill I decide to give it another shot(if indeed I do).

 

[Jman96]

This is a sad thing, I want to apologize to you and let you know that these people were not representing Christ and who he is. Sadly some people think they are right in there view like this but it's not. You have every right to go and see how it goes and then slowly move in. I'm sorry this happened and I will pray you have better experiences.

 

[Chris]

With reference to the 2 posts above, there are those who have gone from being fellow citizens of the earth with everyone else being just like them to people with a personal faith in something.

There is for some a progression to self righteousness and a decision to become the pious moral policemen of the universe and to decide for everyone else how they are to live their lives and attempt to override their choices and try to restrict people's right to free choice in line with their own personal or learned moral code.

I have been whinging about it all thread.



Btw lots of Christians at least that I hang around would value the beliefs of anyone and really treat them good and with dignity. In some ways they are the good example set for me. They are not like the people in my above paragraph.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

As a nonbeliever I have a unique view of Christianity "forcing sinlessness on non believers." For example this past sunday I went to a church by me(no idea of the denomination) simply to see what is being preached/taught, mostly to see if it was still the hellfire and damnation routine from my childhood that was part of what sent me away in the first place, it was a plesant experience for the most part, HOWEVER, after the mass I stayed to talk to some of the church goers and during the conversation my own current beliefs were brought up. I was told that without a doubt because of my past history and current beliefs that I would "be sent to hell, insert hellfire and damnnation speach here" after all this the practically insisted that I be "saved" right then and there, when I attempted to explain that I ws not ready to "be saved" that my intentions were simply to "test the waters"(I was respectfull I thought I sat in the back, dressed correctly, didnt even mock nothing in my head) they(the churchgoers) all but told me to not bother comming back. Honestly it has put me off the church for the time being untill I decide to give it another shot(if indeed I do).

Unfortunate. I myself rarely attend church due to how closed they are. That reaction is amazing (despite it's commonness) when you consider how many churches are shriveling up and blowing away due to loss of membership. Church isn't necessary for closeness to God, if you are truly testing the waters the Bible is your best guide.

If you aren't ready to be saved, that's fine in a way. My path went through atheism, agnosticism, and even heathenism before I found my way. If you are willing you will find your path as well.

 

[ivorhughjarse]

its a journey... just read Pilgrims Progress. Wherever we are now, we will continue on our walk and learn to be closer to God. Sometimes that involves religiousness and sometimes some churches hinder us, it depends upon the members if they view that they have finished their journey and are perfect in their knowledge then they will think that their way alone is the only way and they know everything its seen in the manner of their delivery of any information given to you or alternatively if the group do accept that they have come a long way but are still being guided by the bible and taught daily by The Holy Spirit then its not difficult to work out which direction to walk next time

 

[felix]

Jesus went to the prostitute shouting "you Harlot you will go to hell" the thieving Tax collector he refused to share a meal with because of the sin of this extortioner. The woman at the well, he did not tell her anything about her life because she was an adulteress. Oh no! sorry he did the opposite and showed love

He also took a whip!

 

[Sparkey]

I too had a negative experience once when I rode my motorcycle to a "new" church to check it out. The youth pastor was outside in the parking lot with a group of kids and I walked over while taking off my gear. To keep the story short, it was not a warm nor welcome greeting. Both of us (the youth pastor and I) made quick judgments and jumped to conclusions about each other.

But, this isn't the norm (for me). My experience when visiting Christian churches is overall very positive.

 

[Elijah674]

You cannot mix Government into Truth from Matt. 18:15-18 & be right with God!

Force by Government is only seen in Rom. 13 last 6 commandments (or second commandment of stone's duty to man) Forced worship is satan's stuff and has nothing to do with God!

And the Lord's Church?? They are to abide by ALL the verses.. 14-18 above.

 

[Aardverk]

The early church was strong on enforcing religious morals through laws and it became very corrupt, our legal system would be just as corrupt in doing so. Many choices on morals are taught by parents, churches, etc....not forced, that's the way it should be. I certainly wouldn't want a certain religious group forcing it's morals on me or my family against my consent.

Exactly Ace. People keep forgetting the lessons of history.

MORALS. If we were to have Christian 'morals' imposed on others, who's morals would they actually be? Throughout history church leaders have imposed their own 'morals' which were often nothing to do with scripture. Try living the life of a Puritan or even an Amish. Most Christians reject those 'moral' standards and recognize them to be man made and unnecessarily restrictive. Perhaps we should be clear that 'morals' are defined by man but 'sins' are defined by God!

LAW. I do not consider laws to be based on morality but based on natural justice, common sense and the good of the community. These frequently coincide with morality for pretty obvious reasons.

SIN. Sin is a matter between the individual and God. Whilst I support and abide by most laws, I do not agree with everything that every person regards as sins and neither does anyone else. Each of us has his own view in much the same way that each of us ignore some parts of the Bible. Please note the very sensible observation by Ace1234 quoted above.

PREACHING. If you try preaching to someone with different beliefs and start telling them what they should or shouldn't do, you are most likely to make them even more adamant to ignore Christianity. The first step in spreading Christianity has to be to show love and tolerance and that Christians are good, loving, sensible people who only want to help. Show that you hate the sin but love the sinner. 'Love' is the message and try to remember... Ye shall know them by their fruits.

If you can get to the point where someone is agreeing with your beliefs, then they may share your view of sin. Try it the other way around and you will probably drive them away for ever.

 

[modernnihilst]

PREACHING. If you try preaching to someone with different beliefs and start telling them what they should or shouldn't do, you are most likely to make them even more adamant to ignore Christianity.

If you can get to the point where someone is agreeing with your beliefs, then they may share your view of sin. Try it the other way around and you will probably drive them away for ever.

yup.the issue I (and several people I know) isnt the style of openness that is/has been shown to me(and the other non Christians) here. the issue is the intolerant bible toting preacher person who will brow beat, look down upon, and attempt to convert any and everyone in sight to thier particular twisted belief system(I dont see them as Christians more as lost little people who dont understand the book they claim to base thier life on).

 

[Sparkey]

The question, "How far should we go in enforcing sinlessness..." is a biased question. If this were a sociology survey it would have to be changed so as to not reflect the bias of the survey taker. The OP did have a point that he wanted to make but since nobody (not even God) can infact "enforce sinlessness," the question itself must be reconsidered.

If, for instance, a Christian is asked to vote on a law or asked to vote to choose a candidate, and he/she votes according to their conscience, does this mean they are intolerant? Society at large is comprised of all kinds of people who hold various beliefs.

The idea that Christians should not be able to express their voice, or speak out about sin, or vote according their conscience without being exposed as intolerant is somewhat unfair. If I believe that God established rules that are beneficial for everybody and vote my one vote in accordance with that belief, and if I am a minority -- what does it matter? How can I possible "force" others to behave according to my personal ideal when my voice and vote is only one voice, one vote?

How would it be better if I started voting against my conscience? How would it be better if I started advocating for things that are sinful to be allowed to continue and spread without any restraint? What does, "you are the salt of the earth" mean if we are to lose our saltiness? What worth have we then?

 

[phantom309]

Yes and no. Look at the verse I put in. Jesus wasn't throwing stones. I liken our hard stance to throwing stones. For members of our congregation sure encourage repentance. For people that have nothing to do with us why force them to abide by what we want. They are no threat to us. Wouldn't free will conversion and repentance be our goal for people over forcing our will.

On the contrary,it could be looked at as them imposing their values on us..and many times that is exactly the case.

In numerous courtrooms and govt installations the ten commandments or other displays of faith have been removed.They werent a distraction to justice or other govt affairs,but small groups of atheists demanded through court action they be removed because they were offended..even though the majority of americans are either indifferent or would like them to stay.

Military chaplains have come under heavy fire in latter years for praying in Jesus' name,or gathering for other christian activities.Again special interest groups were key in this procedure and continue to pursue the harassment of our chaplains and other military personnel for daring to mention Jesus.I guess its totally acceptable to lay down the double standard these days.Nothing is said at the mention of other religious figures,and many have even begun to unfairly give more room to muslim figures to the point of outright brown-nosing.

Various displays of faith in general have been attacked in this country.Statues of Christ,crosses,etc have been removed,by court order,again through special interest intervention.

Kids have been barred by school staff for carrying bibles or simply meeting with other like-minded students for prayer or bible studies on campus.And usually theres an atheist or other anti-God teacher/school board member at the helm,again forcing their beliefs on people who pose no threat to them.

We have a book set before us that tells us how to live.We are tasked with bringing others to God,and I fully believe that each has his own choice.I also believe that just like civilizations in the past that any society who pushes God aside and ignores His rules will fail,without question.This has been demonstrated repeatedly in the bible,and we continue to see further examples around us today.Those of us left who do not wish to see this happen to our country are doing what they can to both maintain what ground we have,and make people aware of what is to come should we continue to roll over and let corruption swell because were afraid to rock the boat.

I fully believe that we have a duty to defend what God has graciously given us.Here in America,we have many wonderful things to be thankful for.This,at least for now,is a free nation though I wonder how much longer this will last.We cannot maintain integrity by allowing those with corrupt agendas wreck everything the Lord has set in motion here.

I believe it was Mike that made an excellent observation.Everyone here agrees that murder,thievery,kidnapping,etc should not be legal,and for good reason.These are dark acts which do nothing but tear down society and corrupt many along the way.Likewise it could be stated with a number of other things.Activists and politicians who struggle to bar homosexual marriage are fighting to preserve the way of life that we have enjoyed here for years and ultimately to stave off the coming judgement should we become another Sodom and Gomorrah.

If the extremely passive approach would work,I would be all for it.It would mean less arguments,struggles and hassle for us all.We can plainly see that it does not.Society has continued to decline over the generations when we adopt the hands-off approach and allow those around us to do what they will unhindered.Edmund Burke said it best in his quote "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing."

If you wish to keep what you have intact,then inevitably you will have to speak your mind,and you will have to fight for it at times.Some people will never accept the truth as it is,no matter how you phrase it or candy-coat it.Most of the accusations leveled from the other side are nothing but smoke and mirrors designed to divert attention from their agenda and oppress those they proclaim are the oppressors.

Ill wrap it up here with an opinion on the so-called "tolerance" that people encourage these days.It seems that for christians to be tolerant to others we should always smile,nod and hug everyone who comes along.Always agree with their deviant lifestyles,never speak against any action and never,ever,mention the name Jesus.In short,for us to be tolerant we are expected to ignore everything the bible tells us,while at the same time silently accepting the condemnation that comes when we do follow the bible.Never voice an opinion,and never talk to anyone about morality.I guess the more we go,the more this starts to look like total censorship..or religious discrimination.We should not be apologetic about acknowledging God,and just cant be expected to bow down and cease all thought for fear of offending someone.People have grown into crybabies.What happened to the time when we could all disagree without calling the cops,or meet with friends to discuss common beliefs,within reason obviously,(christian or otherwise) without someone alerting the press and calling in the dogs?Things have gotten a bit squirrely.

 

[Chris]

You cannot mix Government into Truth from Matt. 18:15-18 & be right with God!

Force by Government is only seen in Rom. 13 last 6 commandments (or second commandment of stone's duty to man) Forced worship is satan's stuff and has nothing to do with God!

And the Lord's Church?? They are to abide by ALL the verses.. 14-18 above.

that is a good post Elijah



It made me think of Romans 13 and the duality we face as Christians with government endorsed law decisions and how god put it there.

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28268">1</sup> Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28269">2</sup> Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

 

[Slider]

We shouldn't enforce it at all. At least not above the context of the law of the land. If you steal, you get a sentance. If you murder, you get a sentance. That is just and needed in society.

However, if you want to enforce "sinlessness" on non believers.... Jesus said him that is without sin cast the first stone. That's John 8:7. We all know the story. I have some personal beliefs about it, and what exactly Jesus wrote in the dirt. However, I'll hold them for now. He simply said, "Hey, if you are sinless, take your shot"

We shouldn't enforce it on non believers and we shouldn't enforce it amongst believers either.

Now, I know the mindset of boards. Someone is going to say, "Well, does that mean we shouldn't punish a murderer?" Yes, you should. But to say he will burn in hell.... Well, that's a bit strong. I'm not saying he will or won't. It is God that justifieth. Not me. Not the courts. The courts do so on earth. Not in Heaven.

I would much rather live next to a person who ate shrimp than a murderer... That much is true. But both sinned. Yea, I actually believe that one sin, no matter how small makes you a sinner on the same level! But I am rational.

 

[Tina]

As a nonbeliever I have a unique view of Christianity "forcing sinlessness on non believers." For example this past sunday I went to a church by me(no idea of the denomination) simply to see what is being preached/taught, mostly to see if it was still the hellfire and damnation routine from my childhood that was part of what sent me away in the first place, it was a plesant experience for the most part, HOWEVER, after the mass I stayed to talk to some of the church goers and during the conversation my own current beliefs were brought up. I was told that without a doubt because of my past history and current beliefs that I would "be sent to hell, insert hellfire and damnnation speach here" after all this the practically insisted that I be "saved" right then and there, when I attempted to explain that I ws not ready to "be saved" that my intentions were simply to "test the waters"(I was respectfull I thought I sat in the back, dressed correctly, didnt even mock nothing in my head) they(the churchgoers) all but told me to not bother comming back. Honestly it has put me off the church for the time being untill I decide to give it another shot(if indeed I do).

Giving you the benefit of doubt and assuming this is what really happened, I am just disgusted, and even I will probably stay away from a church like that ! ...

 

[Aardverk]

It seems that for christians to be tolerant to others we should always smile,nod and hug everyone who comes along.

That is indeed not far from what Jesus taught so probably it is a good idea.

Always agree with their deviant lifestyles,never speak against any action and never,ever,mention the name Jesus.

You should never agree with deviant lifestyles - this is where you should hate the sin but love the sinner. By all means mention the name of Jesus when it is constructive and not destructive.

In short,for us to be tolerant we are expected to ignore everything the bible tells us,while at the same time silently accepting the condemnation that comes when we do follow the bible.

This is a real problem. No one follows everything the Bible says, people choose which bits to accept and which bits to ignore. It is hardly surprising that people who piously claim to follow the Bible are criticized if they patently do not.

Never voice an opinion,and never talk to anyone about morality.I guess the more we go,the more this starts to look like total censorship..or religious discrimination.

In non Christian cultures, I have twice been politely told that my actions were offensive to their beliefs. Not shouted at, just told quietly and politely. That gave me the opportunity to apologize properly, ask about the background of their belief and have a really interesting conversation about their religion. A really good experience for me and hopefully for them as well - harmony not hostility.

We should not be apologetic about acknowledging God,and just cant be expected to bow down and cease all thought for fear of offending someone.

Absolutely right but the important question is - do you want to influence them or antagonize them? If you just want to antagonize people then shout your mouth off as much as you like. If you really want to influence people you should not insult their beliefs. If you TRULY want to be a 'fisher of men' you would do well to follow the example of a quiet angler!

The link below is a very good example of how NOT to preach. Despite his courage and good intentions, all James achieved was to make Christians look bad. His hard work has been entirely negative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ImdXvFB1hM&feature=related*LINK REMOVED FOR VIOLATION OF THE TOS*

EDITED BY STAFF

 

[phantom309]

"Absolutely right but the important question is - do you want to influence them or antagonize them? If you just want to antagonize people then shout your mouth off as much as you like. If you really want to influence people you should not insult their beliefs. If you TRULY want to be a 'fisher of men' you would do well to follow the example of a quiet angler!"

Influence is preferential,but anyone with a true desire to listen usually doesnt snap about someone shouting their mouth off when an opinion is being voiced.

This is a fine example of the things I discussed earlier.Everything is peachy while the hugs and smiles are discussed,and anything else is criticized,censored and/or dismissed.