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How is Heaven enjoyable?

Great question, SD. In my estimation, the only way that a person WOULD be able to "forget a close loved one" would be to rip a part [IMO, a huge part] of who that person was out of them. Question is, are they still the person they were?

This question goes even further than "loved ones". Humans are how we are here on this earth. More than just "removing the thoughts of loved ones" will be required to be removed [jealousy, greed, hate, . . . even self determination, desire to achieve goals, etc.] in order for that person to successfully be able to remain in heaven. Question is, can that person still be who they were?
 
Great question, SD. In my estimation, the only way that a person WOULD be able to "forget a close loved one" would be to rip a part [IMO, a huge part] of who that person was out of them. Question is, are they still the person they were?

This question goes even further than "loved ones". Humans are how we are here on this earth. More than just "removing the thoughts of loved ones" will be required to be removed [jealousy, greed, hate, . . . even self determination, desire to achieve goals, etc.] in order for that person to successfully be able to remain in heaven. Question is, can that person still be who they were?

Yeah, you've put your finger on exactly the part of that explanation that terrified me so much.

It actually sounds scarier than hell does.
 
Great question, SD. In my estimation, the only way that a person WOULD be able to "forget a close loved one" would be to rip a part [IMO, a huge part] of who that person was out of them. Question is, are they still the person they were?

This question goes even further than "loved ones". Humans are how we are here on this earth. More than just "removing the thoughts of loved ones" will be required to be removed [jealousy, greed, hate, . . . even self determination, desire to achieve goals, etc.] in order for that person to successfully be able to remain in heaven. Question is, can that person still be who they were?

If the EARTH that WE walk on is here which GOD made, the answer clearly is yes. Nothing is impossible for God ...
 
If the EARTH that WE walk on is here which GOD made, the answer clearly is yes. Nothing is impossible for God ...
Here's something to think about... could "Free will" be kept intact after altering somebody so that they aren't made miserable by the knowledge that their loved ones are in hell?
 
Here's something to think about... could "Free will" be kept intact after altering somebody so that they aren't made miserable by the knowledge that their loved ones are in hell?


Re previous post: NOTHING is impossible for God ...
 
Okay, I was remiss in my assumption that you had contrived a scenario in order to prove that God was incapable of Justice. Kindly allow me then to set that aside and respond.

  • Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. ...
  • What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.
  • And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
  • Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
  • Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.
  • He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
  • And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
  • He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
  • And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
[Matthew 10:16, 27-42 KJV]


Your premise included you being a devout Christian. I can not say if this is the case or not but would suggest that before you take your first step on that road (if you are not a Christian, that is) you would do well to count the cost first.
 
Re previous post: NOTHING is impossible for God ...

not contesting that, but does that extend to things that are logically impossible?

if not, my question is whether it's logically possible to maintain free will after the modifications described in this thread.
 
The fact that such knowledge would horrify me is a part of what it means to love. If heaven is a place where I don't feel bad about my spouse burning in hell, then heaven would be a place where I don't love.

The problem is your human centered concept of heaven. It really is all about man. Is there a god in your heave?
 
If the person in heaven isn't the person they were on earth, nor could be again, . . . then why even go through all this ridiculous stuff people go through on this planet? We could have just been made in that way from the start.

An entirely important question. The people in heaven, will they have the same mind/mindset as the "pre-fall" Adam?
 
not contesting that, but does that extend to things that are logically impossible?

if not, my question is whether it's logically possible to maintain free will after the modifications described in this thread.

If the person in heaven isn't the person they were on earth, nor could be again, . . . then why even go through all this ridiculous stuff people go through on this planet? We could have just been made in that way from the start.

An entirely important question. The people in heaven, will they have the same mind/mindset as the "pre-fall" Adam?


We're not there yet guys ... ;) ...
 
Rev 21
"3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.â€

Obviously, we can't speak from personal experience, but as believers, we believe in the promise that Christ Spoke. However difficult it is for us to imagine what eternity will be like in His Presence, He tells us there will be no more tears, mourning, and pain. When I imagine Heaven, I see a place where we are so much more connected to the very Truth of God's Presence, there will be no negative emotions capable of penetrating our joy. We might remember those left behind, but we will be capable of seeing clearly His Purpose for everything.

No one's going to give a satisfactory answer to this question posed by nonbelievers who have a bend on not believing scripture, but we rely on God's Promise.
 
Rev 21
"3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.â€

Obviously, we can't speak from personal experience, but as believers, we believe in the promise that Christ Spoke. However difficult it is for us to imagine what eternity will be like in His Presence, He tells us there will be no more tears, mourning, and pain. When I imagine Heaven, I see a place where we are so much more connected to the very Truth of God's Presence, there will be no negative emotions capable of penetrating our joy. We might remember those left behind, but we will be capable of seeing clearly His Purpose for everything.

No one's going to give a satisfactory answer to this question posed by nonbelievers who have a bend on not believing scripture, but we rely on God's Promise.

And this about sum's it up :thumbsup, so the discussion should now come to an end on the matter. Either one believes scripture, or they don't. It's not about human argument, it's about God's promises. :praying
 
I'll go along on this trip for a bit at least...just to discuss the more philosophical points raised.

It truly is all about love and justice isn't it. Can we truly be capable of love, if we know loved ones are in hell? God is love, and God will know that there are those in hell. Does He not love them? That is the view of the Calvinist to be sure, but others believe that God so loved the whole world that He sent His Son to die that all might be able to attain eternal life.

But, it's a sad fact, not all will.

So, now what about justice? What kind of justice demands that someone would spend an eternity in hell? It's hard to even think of anything so bad here on earth that it demands such a steep price, even one which was willingly opted for (for God will make sure that there is no one without excuse.)

Well, here on earth, it is hard to imagine "what's so bad about that?" Because sin permeates everything we say, do, every thought we have, all throughout creation, it is hard to see "what's so bad" about anything that God takes offense of.

Scripturally, I'm not sure if we will have recollection of damned loved ones in heaven or not. There are some verses that suggest that, but it's hard to say that our memories will be wiped...and I do see an Orwellian connection with that, to tell the truth.

However, I also think that most of this is going to be sorted out in the Great Day of Judgement. That will be the day that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. And, that will be the day that He will separate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares, those with eternal life and the damned.

And, that will also be the day that we see what holiness is truly all about. Because in the discussion of love and the discussion of justice, one thing I haven't seen yet discussed is holiness.

Holiness is a word that the Church has mangled...with about every other great concept in the Bible. The Church, especially those of "holiness" movement has defined holiness mainly in things we aren't supposed to do. If one is holy, one cannot ---- (fill in the blank, watch R rated movies, smoke cigarettes, be gay, be a Democrat.)

We have to admit, that is the concept that the Church has pushed, and it's entirely wrong. Holiness is being without sin, being perfect in every way. It is a hard concept for the Church to define, because, so far, the only One in the Church that is holy is Christ Himself. (Possibly excepting the saints that have gone on before us.) We all of us, including what we know of the saints, pale by comparison.

And, because we do not grasp the concept of true, heavenly holiness, we also do not grasp just how bad sin is. Sin, not things we do or don't do, but actual sin.

On the day of judgment, we humans will finally see what true holiness is really all about, and we will then understand why, when God was upon Mt. Sinai, the Israelites couldn't look upon Him without dropping dead. The Bible tells us that anyone who actually comes upon even a taste of heavenly holiness and glory is first and foremost overcome with fear. And, I don't mean respect, I mean abject terror. It was the first things the angels said to the shepherds, "Fear not". His true holiness and glory is why, during the Transfiguration of Christ when God the Father spoke, the disciples, those men who knew and loved Christ the most, were so afraid they fell to their faces.

So on judgment day, we will finally understand, "just what's so bad about that". Much that is veiled now, will be revealed, and we'll finally "get it". Also, for those who reject Christ, even as they do bow the knee, we will understand that they actually reject Him, have all along, and have no desire to be with Him. It's easy to make excuses now, but no excuse will be forthcoming on that day, because God has shown Himself to all, even to atheists. They just choose to not believe, and that is after all, what separates all humans, those who believe and those who don't.

It is grim, no doubt about it. So much for love? Well, the thing is, God does love, and He does give countless promises and encouragements, warnings and exhortations to us shouting out, "Today is the day of salvation." There are even intriguing and hopeful texts that tell us things like God is willing to overlook times of ignorance. And, even that the unbelieving spouse is sanctified through the believing spouse.

So, we can take this dilemma of just how can we enjoy heaven if a loved one is in hell and we can do several things with it. First and foremost, it encourages us to pray for said loved ones. When I first became a Christian, not one of my family was living for the Lord. Now, they all are...and there's a bundle of them, let me tell you. That was because I claimed as a promise from God, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and all your household."

Secondly, it should get us off our heinies and get out there and share the gospel, that no one need suffer hell, eternal life is right here for the taking, it really is.

Thirdly, we know that God is patient with us and holding off judgment because He isn't willing that any should perish, that He sent Jesus to pay the price for all sin, that He gave us both the gospel and the Scriptures to bear witness, that He blesses the world, even the lost, and even after His Son's death was rejected. So, we can also be sure that when He promises that every tear will be wiped dry, it will indeed happen, and although we cannot, in our current sin-induced blindness, understand how it can happen, we will understand fully how God's love, holiness and justice all works together.
 
Yep, leave it to Mike to come up with a far more concise explanation as I was composing my overly verbose response! :p
 
Yep, leave it to Mike to come up with a far more concise explanation as I was composing my overly verbose response! :p

Yes, but I personally enjoyed reading such a verbose, and wonderfully written explanation :clap
 
Rev 21
"3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.â€

Obviously, we can't speak from personal experience, but as believers, we believe in the promise that Christ Spoke. However difficult it is for us to imagine what eternity will be like in His Presence, He tells us there will be no more tears, mourning, and pain. When I
imagine Heaven, I see a place where we are so much more connected to the very Truth of God's Presence, there will be no negative emotions capable of penetrating our joy. We might remember those left behind, but we will be capable of seeing clearly His Purpose for everything.

No one's going to give a satisfactory answer to this question posed by nonbelievers who have a bend on not believing scripture, but we rely on God's Promise.


:clap2
 
Let's say I was a devout christian, but my wife was atheist. Imagine we both died suddenly, and I went to heaven, while she went to hell.

Obviously, the knowledge that my dearest loved one is currently in unending and excruciating agony would horrify me, and it would be impossible to enjoy heaven as long as she's in hell.

How does God get around this issue?



Hi I hope you get to hear this--

When we die and go to heaven we will be perfected. In other words we will be made like Christ.

Christ knows perfect justice and gives freely to people what they want

If the wicked wan't hell, they get it

If the righteous want heaven they get it


When we are perfected we will think the same way. So in other words

You're wife got what was justice. Also she would've know about the bible and Jesus if you were a devout Christian so she had ample opportunity.

If someone sins they deserve hell. Thats the way it is.

And it only seems wrong because we are sinful and we can't empathize with people heading there-- but God who know infinitely more than us says its right


So you will not be upset actually you will be happy.:thumbsup
 
I don't know, . . . it seems like heaven will be filled with a lot of selfish people. . . . not caring about loved ones suffering in agony, but happy that they are in this realm. IF I ended up in heaven and knew loved ones were in hell suffering, I could not be happy, unless I was no longer the person I am now. So what was the point of this existence? That is a rhetorical statement, not a question.
 
So Deavon,
You don't believe scripture when it says,

Rev 21
"3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.â€

I suppose if I trusted in my own self, and my own unerstandings before searching the scriptures in the matter, I might feel the same way you do. :(
 
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