How is Heaven enjoyable?

[tig]

You're the only one to post in this thread who seems to think so. So why don't you just back off?

I agree 100% with you SD. It is one of the most important questions that anyone with one ounce of love within themselves would have to ask.

And man, am I so glad that it is answered over and over and over in scripture. Though there are those who obscure this answer so that ultimately, you will become imbondaged to them or their organization, or so it seems to me.

Those unbelieving in the message of Christ live a life of burning here in this world. They don't know who they are, who God is, or if he exist in some instances, why they are here on earth, or what exactly is going to be their fate at the death of the flesh. Even though they may be comfortable and at peace physically, spiritually they are dead to these great truths that give real comfort and peace.

What happens to your "athiest" wife when she dies? Her spirit returns unto God who gave it (Eccl 12:7).

Many people misunderstand that it is not in heaven that God wipes away all tears, it is in the new covenant that God wipes away all tears. Once you enter into this second covenant by believing the simple truths JC taught (that God is our Father, we are his children, and just like God is a eternal spirit, so are we), then God your Father wipes away all your tears about the suffering you and all others do here on this earth. It is all worth it and is not able to be compared with the glory that will be revealed after this life. God is putting us all through the suffering of death to perfect us, to give us an understanding of just how valuable our free gift of eternal life is.

Those last two chapters of revelation describe the new covenant, of which we are living now, not heaven. The spiritual city of Jerusalem is here now, and the gates are open, unbelief is the only thing that keeps us out. The healing can begin now, living water is offered to all who thirst. The time is here, at hand, as the book says in conclusion.

The only difference between you and your wife (if indeed that scenario is true), is that you have the peace of God ruling in your heart because you know all things are going according to God your Father's will, your wife would be lost to the fact that all things are going accordng to God her Father's will and would not have that peace of God.

What is the same about both of you, is that God is your Father, both of you are his children, and both of you are spirit, not the flesh. One knows it, the believer, the other doesn't, the unbeliever. But there is no way you will be mourning for her in heaven, she'll be right beside you, in the room JC has prepared for her.

 

[lamplady]

I don't know, . . . it seems like heaven will be filled with a lot of selfish people. . . . not caring about loved ones suffering in agony, but happy that they are in this realm. IF I ended up in heaven and knew loved ones were in hell suffering, I could not be happy, unless I was no longer the person I am now. So what was the point of this existence? That is a rhetorical statement, not a question.

What part of 'change' don't you understand though and they,(unrepentant sinners), will be remembered no more?

It's not about being selfish - sin CANNOT enter heaven ... you got your chance NOW to get there ... it's yours FREE!

 

[Deavonreye]

Did not Satan enter heaven to get god to ruin job . . . without any reason? Yes.

I understand the "change" that must occur. My point is that we won't be able to be who we are HERE. . . . so again, what is the point.

I suppose if I trusted in my own self, and my own unerstandings before searching the scriptures in the matter, I might feel the same way you do.[/qoute]

This is my point. This is what we understand and trust in. The here and now. If this life no longer matters to people, in heaven, . . . what is the point of it.

 

[Lloyd]

Other than the obvious scriptural references that have already pointed out in this thread, do people REALLY doubt the power of God? Do you honestly believe you're going to be in heaving thinking "Damn... I can't believe my wife is burning in hell"? What on earth is your perception of God, who knows love far greater than we can even imagine? Our problems always lie in our limited understanding, and our understanding based on our own knowledge where everything has to be within our logic.

I'm baffled by the people that pose such questions. If you alone promised someone you loved something far greater than they could imagine, wouldn't you do your utmost to make it as special as possible? What about God then, who's love exceeds our understanding, who's love has no measure?

I also want to say, all glory belongs to God, so we need to think from a less selfish viewpoint, but that's another thread entirely.

 

[lamplady]

Did not Satan enter heaven to get god to ruin job . . . without any reason? Yes.

I understand the "change" that must occur. My point is that we won't be able to be who we are HERE. . . . so again, what is the point.

If you understood about sin then you'd understand that change is necessary.

We're not there yet so we cannot tell you, 'that we won't be able to be who we are here', but it is possible we would but without the conscious mind to worry over it ...

I suppose if I trusted in my own self, and my own unerstandings before searching the scriptures in the matter, I might feel the same way you do.[/qoute]

Yes

This is my point. This is what we understand and trust in. The here and now. If this life no longer matters to people, in heaven, . . . what is the point of it.

Originally we were put on this earth to live. Because of one man who sinned we all became sinners. The wages of sin is death. But God so loved the world that he gave us his only begotten Son to die for our sins sake that we may LIVE with him ETERNALLY in heaven if we believe. End.

....

 

[Mike]

Many people misunderstand that it is not in heaven that God wipes away all tears, it is in the new covenant that God wipes away all tears. Once you enter into this second covenant by believing the simple truths JC taught (that God is our Father, we are his children, and just like God is a eternal spirit, so are we), then God your Father wipes away all your tears about the suffering you and all others do here on this earth.

If you believe this, how do you account for the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, leading into this in 21...

"1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,†for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.â€

This seems clearly to be speaking to the New Jerusalem.

 

[stovebolts]

Did not Satan enter heaven to get god to ruin job . . . without any reason? Yes.

God had his reasons...

I understand the "change" that must occur. My point is that we won't be able to be who we are HERE. . . . so again, what is the point.

Maybe it's as much about who we are here, now as it is about who we will be then, there? I mean, we were once infants, dependent upon our mothers for nourishment, and if we wern't infants, we would never grow to be todlers, let alone tweens, teens, young adults, adults who would eventually go through their mid life crisis, get old and then one day die.. It's all important because it's always about who we are here, now. Really, the only thing that changes is the now... Does that make sense?

I suppose if I trusted in my own self, and my own unerstandings before searching the scriptures in the matter, I might feel the same way you do.

This is my point. This is what we understand and trust in. The here and now. If this life no longer matters to people, in heaven, . . . what is the point of it.

I don't understand how here and now doesn't matter. The gospel is about the here and now as much is it about the life after. I recall a story where a man had a bumper crop, so he built bigger barns... and that very night the Lord demanded of him his life for being so selfish in a time where people all around him were starving. I also recall something Jesus said in Matthew 5 where he said that the meek would inherit the earth. Now has always mattered to God.

 

[Sparkey]

Biconditional elimination allows one to infer a conditional from a biconditional:
if ( A ↔ B ) is true, then one may infer either direction of the biconditional, ( A → B ) and ( B → A ).

For example, if it's true that I'm breathing if and only if I'm alive, then it's true that if I'm breathing, I'm alive; likewise, it's true that if I'm alive, I'm breathing.¹​

The logical syllogism presented infers that the devout man is enjoying himself if and only if his wife were known to be enjoying herself. If there were even one instance where 'SDJonathan The Devout' enjoyed himself (let's say, at a football game and his team won) and 'Mrs. SDJonathan The Godless' did not (let's say she hates football) the entire argument falls apart.

So much for logic.

If what Jesus said happens to be true, "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me," the man would not enter be worthy of heaven in the first place. That is not meant to say that no man who is married to an unbeliever can or can not be saved. Believers are told to not yoke themselves to unbelievers.

Being devout is not sufficient to gain entrance. The argument is moot.

You may do well to examine the Scripture that deals with this "scenario" specifically, [1 Corinthians 7:12-14 KJV] - "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


FOOTNOTE:
¹ Biconditional elimination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tig]

If you believe this, how do you account for the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, leading into this in 21...

"1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,†for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.â€

This seems clearly to be speaking to the New Jerusalem.

Hey Mike, before I begin, let me remind you, this is what I am reading for myself, when I see different, God help me, I'll adjust.

That said, I love the book of Revelation, as I believe it to be what it claims to be: The revelation of Jesus Christ. Who is JC? From what I understand, the tree of life in the midst of the garden.

The whole book of Revelation (of Jesus Christ) is about JC, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, taking this book sealed with seven seals (what book is this? The obvious and clear answer, the bible, the completed and perfected word of God) out of the right hand of God, and JC taking those seals that has sealed it, off, one by one, revealing the true nature of the bible itself.

As you know, the first seal is removed, and God is revealed as One that sits upon a white horse, having a bow, and a crown, going forth conquering, and to conquer. Then God is revealed as one on a red horse, black horse, and pale horse, so on and so forth until JC has described in perfect detail the story of the bible and the woes and tribulation one experiences leading up unto the new covenant, the new heavens and the new earth, where God is our Father, not our judge, where he wipes away our tears by giving us understanding of why things are the way they are.

What is the great white throne? It's the very last step before entering into the new covenant. When one is revealed the judgement of God, where death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, along with all those who are not written in the book of life, it is the second death, where all sinful things remain, and no sinful flesh shall pass through it.

Immediately after this great white throne experience, the new covenant is revealed, where as Paul said in 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

This directly correlates to Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

When one is "in Christ", believing his message, then all things become new, the heaven, the earth, sinners, yourself, and then one understands that all things are of God. He is working all things out for the good (though only those who love him can perceive it).

That great white throne really seems to me to be when God reveals to those who endure the revealing up to that point, how sinful it is to love and believe a lie, that there is something one can do to be in the family of God, or to gain eternal life. That can only be produced by God himself, who himself conceived us, we have nothing to do with it, but experience it. So all the old things we held to be true, but was a lie, is cast into a lake of fire that burns them up.

The new Jerusalem is the city that is here now, whose gates are never closed, open to all who will but believe the truth Christ taught. There are no more tears, or death, or any of the things that come from unbelief, It is done, Christ has been revealed, that great mystery, that lies within us all.

So I read it anyways.

 

[Mike]

Hey Mike, before I begin, let me remind you, this is what I am reading for myself, when I see different, God help me, I'll adjust.

You have a refreshing approach, and I'll open myself to the same. In keeping this an amicable discussion, I'm going to express the difficulty I have with your premise, but I pray I have ears to hear if I am wrong.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to return to my post and stress the Words and context of them to demonstrate why I believe Christ is speaking about the time to come when He will establish the New Jerusalem and our world as we know it will be done. But first, you mentioned 2 Corinthians.

2 Cor 5
" 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"

While Rev 21 is speaking to a "new Heaven and a new earth", verse 17 above seems to be speaking to the inner-change of the person. If someone is abiding with Christ, his old self will be gone and he himself is indeed a new person. But this doesn't preclude him from having the struggles during this lifetime that will be wiped away in Rev 21:4. At that time, he will wipe away all of them in the resurrection. But for now, we still have them, and Jesus said we would:

John 16
33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.â€

So Christ has overcome the world and we can have peace in Him, but having peace doesn't mean you won't have sorrow, tears and pain. You will just be empowered to move through it. Paul wrote about being content (or having peace) in all circumstances.

Phil 4
"11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength. 14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 "

Jesus said we would have problems, and we as well as Paul do. Now back to Revelation 21 which immediately follows the final Judgment.

Rev 21
"1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,†for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.â€

John describes what he saw in a new heaven and earth AFTER the first heaven and earth had passed away. This new earth appears to be the Holy City (new Jerusalem) coming down from heaven. I'm not sure how this can be interpreted to be anything else than the Paradise in the presence of God that we are promised upon the resurrection. And as verse 4 says, at that time, there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain. We see all these things around us now while we wait for His return.

tig, I appreciate your input and look forward to your response if you are led to.

 

[Deavonreye]

Maybe it's as much about who we are here, now as it is about who we will be then, there? I mean, we were once infants, dependent upon our mothers for nourishment, and if we wern't infants, we would never grow to be todlers, let alone tweens, teens, young adults, adults who would eventually go through their mid life crisis, get old and then one day die.. It's all important because it's always about who we are here, now. Really, the only thing that changes is the now... Does that make sense?

I'm afraid this doesn't make sense, unless that natural order of the heaven bound is to "grow up" out of having a care about loved ones who didn't make it.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm afraid this doesn't make sense, unless that natural order of the heaven bound is to "grow up" out of having a care about loved ones who didn't make it.

You've erred in your conclusion. They (the heaven bound) are not to "grow up" absent of love.

The OP asked if God had a plan to deal with a specific scenario and I've replied showing that the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband. That is not the whole plan though (Who can know the mind of God?). Here then, something to consider - the "How" it works part:

Paul is admonishing Christians here (not addressing the unsaved). There was dissent and argument, some saying, "I follow Paul [in this matter]", and others saying, "[No, you're wrong], I follow Appolos..."
The master builder replied and shows how it works - He explained that FIRE reveals the works of God:

• And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
• For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? ...
• For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
• According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.
• But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
• Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
• Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
• If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
• If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

[1 Corinthians 3:1-3, 9-16 KJV]


Those who build rightly upon the foundation (which is Jesus Christ) will have their work revealed (because it will last) but those who do not? That is also seen and that worker suffers loss. The "Day" itself shall reveal it.

Concepts that the unsaved imagine do not force the Lord of all Heaven to be less than just. There is a plan.

 

[Deavonreye]

I don't see how what you just posted answers how a person will no longer be grieved by an "unsaved loved one".

 

[Sparkey]

I don't see how what you just posted answers how a person will no longer be grieved by an "unsaved loved one".

How can you expect me to believe your scenario when the Word of God itself contradicts you?

What? I am to think that you can predict what God will or will not do more so than what has been declared? Here, let me try to help by retrieving the pertinent part of my previous post:

If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:

 

[Deavonreye]

Is that verse stating that the unbelieving wife of a believing husband will go to heaven when she dies?

 

[Sparkey]

Is that verse stating that the unbelieving wife of a believing husband will go to heaven when she dies?

Yep. Sure is. Their kids too. Paul isn't here to defend what the Holy Spirit declared through him and there could be some Christian who can reveal more about it but that is the gist of it.

Believers are not supposed to divorce. Even in the case of them being married to an unbeliever BECAUSE the spouse is sanctified (set apart unto God) by the believing spouse. Holiness isn't comprised by what we don't do - lots of people get that wrong. Holiness is the condition of being separate from sin. The Holy Spirit is completely and utterly apart from all sin. God called to mankind, "Come out from them and be separate". Christians are joined into Christ through belief and trust. Believers tried to "Come out and be separate," and tried to follow the law. It didn't work. Jesus offered a trade: His righteousness for our shame. Believers have the righteousness of Christ Jesus imputed to them. The acts of one are imputed to the other. That's an act of JUSTICE. Why? Because the sinless one had sin imputed also. The scales of justice MUST be balanced and some misunderstand the goodness of God when they don't look at the Father (God) through the life of the Son. Jesus showed us the nature of it by his life and ministry. He is the husbandman of the believer. Believers get to be like him. We don't know what we will be but we shall be like him. I don't get it (yet) but trust what has been declared: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [1 John 3:2 KJV].

Of all the various metaphors that could have been used to explain the relationship between Christ and the Church (ie., a farmer and the field, a shepherd and the flock, the roots of a tree seeking water and giving strength) one, and only one, was selected: The Union of Marriage. The Bible explains that, and all through it too. The believer is given more than he can imagine, not less.

Divorce is such a sad comment on modern society when seen in this light. Heaven is much more enjoyable now, yes? Hope this helps.

 

[Deavonreye]

Hmmm. . . . well, okay. Not what I was always taught when a christian.

 

[farouk]

S:

Actually, what it's saying is that the believing partner is the likely sanctifying influence in the life of the unbelieving spouse. The other person still needs to exercise individual faith.

 

[Sparkey]

S:

Actually, what it's saying is that the believing partner is the likely sanctifying influence in the life of the unbelieving spouse. The other person still needs to exercise individual faith.

IF that were true the children would not be HOLY. Pardon my disagreement, but that isn't what Paul emphasized.