How liberal is the church in Europe?

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm curious. Can anyone, especially you Europeans, help us know how different they are in this regard?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Are you concerned with Luxembourg or Hungary?

 

[Claudya]

Are you concerned with Luxembourg or Hungary?

hehe, good question.

Please specify which country you mean. I tried to tell you that in the other thread but it got locked. :-( There are huge differences between how liberal people are depending on country. I would guess the southern European countries aren't quite as liberal as the middle or north European ones. Also, which of our churches do you mean? Catholics have slightly different values than protestants, and the "smaller" denominations (like baptists, methodists, adventists, pentecoastals, and so on) may have another set of opinions.
In Germany the protestant church leans toward a horrible sort of "liberalism", in an indifference and cowardice kind of way. That's not about things like public nudity or being on a leftist politcal path, but it's like they don't dare have an opinion at all. They are trying to please just everyone. And in many places the protestant church offers lame and boring services because they seem to have forgotten that church isn't just a sunday morning routine, but a meanignfull gathering before God. So they are losing members rapidly, either into agnosticism, or into other churches with a stronger identity.
Like I said, it's not because they have liberal ideas, but because they have no ideas at all. They only appear to be liberal.
The catholics are officially in line with the pope, but individual catholics may range from extremely conservative to totally liberal and most are somewhere in the middle.
We do probably have a higher percentage of liberal and politically leftist christians here than in the USA, but we do also have very conservative ones. We even have creationists, but they are a small minority. What you call "liberalism" or even "socialism" is probably something that we accept as our way of life without giving it much thought and without considering it a problem. Most of us aren't "extremists" for liberalism.

But things may be completely different in France or in Norway or in Spain. Like I said, it all depends on what country and what state or province or district of that country, and what church, city vs countryside, older vs younger christians, and so on.

I'm very certain "the church" in the USA does have a lot of diversity in itself, too. I bet there are very liberal pastors and congregations as well as very conservative ones. So it might actually be difficult to compare the churches of both continents at all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

See, that was easy, wasn't it? Lol.

Well it doesn't sound too terribly different than the church in America. God has always preserved/reserved a remnant for himself through the ages.

But honestly, I wondered how liberal your own personal views of Christianity are. Nothing personal that you should take offense (I don't even know you). It's just that it has been interesting to talk to someone from outside of the US about church. And I knew that, generally speaking, the European church has gone down the liberal slide farther than the American church has.

I've come to the conclusion so far that 'liberalism', whether it be in politics or religion, is about setting people free from God/religion. IOW, saving them FROM God, not so much about saving them TO God. Of course, liberals would not recognize that's what they are doing except by the fact that--if they'd see it--they enjoy redefining God as he has been revealed to us in the Bible.

 

[Claudya]

....has gone down the liberal slide...

... or climbed up the liberal hill. ;-)
Those churches that clearly focus on left wing politics or liberal agenda attract a weird audience, but they still attract an audience.

I've come to the conclusion so far that 'liberalism', whether it be in politics or religion, is about setting people free from God/religion. IOW, saving them FROM God, not so much about saving them TO God. Of course, liberals would not recognize that's what they are doing except by the fact that--if they'd see it--they enjoy redefining God as he has been revealed to us in the Bible.

Yeah that's a big problem about the protestant church, they hardly mention God out in the open. My church is part of the protestant church, but it's different in that regard. We have a high emphasis on prayer and on Jesus. It's a liberal church insofar as we are very far from being legalistic and willing to question tradition.

On the other hand I'm having a problem with the "redefining God" argument. Any image of God that we can possibly have is only an interpretation. The most conservative view is as much a redefinition as the most liberal one. In this world there is just no absolute knowledge of God.

 

[farouk]

... or climbed up the liberal hill. ;-)
Those churches that clearly focus on left wing politics or liberal agenda attract a weird audience, but they still attract an audience.



Yeah that's a big problem about the protestant church, they hardly mention God out in the open. My church is part of the protestant church, but it's different in that regard. We have a high emphasis on prayer and on Jesus. It's a liberal church insofar as we are very far from being legalistic and willing to question tradition.

On the other hand I'm having a problem with the "redefining God" argument. Any image of God that we can possibly have is only an interpretation. The most conservative view is as much a redefinition as the most liberal one. In this world there is just no absolute knowledge of God.

He is revealed fully in the Person of His Son, in the Scriptures.

This is all part of the wonder of the Incarnation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He is revealed fully in the Person of His Son, in the Scriptures.

This is all part of the wonder of the Incarnation.

That would be my answer too. If you've 'seen' Jesus you've seen the Father.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

... or climbed up the liberal hill. ;-)
Those churches that clearly focus on left wing politics or liberal agenda attract a weird audience, but they still attract an audience.



Yeah that's a big problem about the protestant church, they hardly mention God out in the open. My church is part of the protestant church, but it's different in that regard. We have a high emphasis on prayer and on Jesus. It's a liberal church insofar as we are very far from being legalistic and willing to question tradition.

On the other hand I'm having a problem with the "redefining God" argument. Any image of God that we can possibly have is only an interpretation. The most conservative view is as much a redefinition as the most liberal one. In this world there is just no absolute knowledge of God.

I can see how defining liberalism in regard to politics and religion will be in order here. For I definitely agree with you about conservative, fundamentalist thinking versus the 'liberality' of religious thought. I'm definitely liberal in that regard. (Yes, farouk, I really am, lol.)

 

[farouk]

I ain't political...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Any conversation that takes you away from the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ is influenced by the enemy.
Don't dwell on it, instead dwell on Jesus.

 

[jasoncran]

Any conversation that takes you away from the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ is influenced by the enemy.
Don't dwell on it, instead dwell on Jesus.

so what about Christian martial ministries then where the sensei uses the arts as means to teach the word? my mma coach does that. he has done what I pondered but never got to do.

 

[Claudya]

where the sensei uses the arts as means to teach the word? my mma coach does that

No offense but that sounds weird.
Did he practice Matthew 5:39 with you - turning the other cheek?

Okay, on a serious note. I can see how traditional martial arts have things in common with christian teachings. The spiritual path of martial arts can go together with christianity very well. But if some martial arts trainer would start teaching me christian doctrine during training that'd feel kinda out of place.... or at least I'd be very surprised about any of my trainers being a christian.

 

[jasoncran]

turning the other check isn't about what is taught today but about what a rabbinical teaching was. they jews were taking the torah about judgements and taking that out of context to avenge themselves on the romans. jesus said that is suicide. instead let them hit you after all when you turn the other way they MUST then turn to hit you with the right hand. that forces them to think about what they are doing. its better to do passive resistance then all out war. the insults weren't worth the fights. even sinners will teach that if one insults another its not right to hit back. same thing.

 

[Claudya]

HeyJason, the cheek reference was just a bit of a joke. :wink I know why Jesus taught that.

 

[jasoncran]

one of my habits is i take things too literally. i will poke at medina with one after class.

 

[Deborah13]

No offense but that sounds weird.
Did he practice Matthew 5:39 with you - turning the other cheek?

Okay, on a serious note. I can see how traditional martial arts have things in common with christian teachings. The spiritual path of martial arts can go together with christianity very well. But if some martial arts trainer would start teaching me christian doctrine during training that'd feel kinda out of place.... or at least I'd be very surprised about any of my trainers being a christian.

We have a new pastor at our church and so far he and his wife are really impressive. Their two teenagers are really neat kids and love the Lord.
She teaches kids martial arts (karate) for free. The school is letting her use an area at the school. My 8 yr old grandson is taking lessons.

 

[jasoncran]

medina does it is indirectly. he will say it since most of his students are Christians. i will poke him with the first wrestling match in the bible.

Jacob and god over the blessing, he will love that

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

so what about Christian martial ministries then where the sensei uses the arts as means to teach the word? my mma coach does that. he has done what I pondered but never got to do.

If it is used to share Jesus with people, then it is good!
I don't see how this is in response to what I said.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

bump

 

[GodsGrace]

turning the other check isn't about what is taught today but about what a rabbinical teaching was. they jews were taking the torah about judgements and taking that out of context to avenge themselves on the romans. jesus said that is suicide. instead let them hit you after all when you turn the other way they MUST then turn to hit you with the right hand. that forces them to think about what they are doing. its better to do passive resistance then all out war. the insults weren't worth the fights. even sinners will teach that if one insults another its not right to hit back. same thing.

??