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How Machiavellian are you?

humble soul said:
i agree but that might be a politician's answer too. ?
Click to expand...
Gee. I think I'll take that as a compliment !
They're so good at talking a lot and not saying anything!!

But I really mean it.
We only really know what we experience...
we only THINK we know the rest.
:yes
 
Watched a doco on Winston Churchill. one of the greatest war time leaders.some decisions he had to make , risking thousands of lives. actually the lives of soldiers were often treated as ststistics or even canon fodder. I wonder if he read Machievelli. Im guessing he did. Successful leaders have to , if not embrace evil, at least make decisions which makecthem look merciless.
 
humble soul said:
This 20 question quiz/survey looks fun. You get a score out of a 100. Ive only recently become interested in Machiavelli. Ive managed to stay naïve all my life. its time I woke up perhaps? Please delete this thread if its either too political or unchristian.

www.aconsciousrethink.com

How Machiavellian Are You On A Scale From 1-100?

Are you a high Mach or a low Mach? Take this test and find out how Machiavellian you really are on a scale from 1-100.
www.aconsciousrethink.com www.aconsciousrethink.com
Click to expand...

I scored 76. The problem with this test is it assess how well you are aware of how you could manipulate people, not that you do. It is about motivation and how information and truth effect behaviour.

What Machiavelli worked out, is if you profile someones emotional make up you can push them in the right places and get their behaviour to match your own goals while the target is completely unaware they are being played.

I have met people who do this on different levels. One lady could read emotions implicitly and then respond appropriately. It was like being in the focused eye of someone else and they could see your changes. It was almost overwhelming to get that level of detailed attention. Because I knew my emotional states well, I could track what was going on. I am sure she had no idea she did this consciously or others could not.

Another is someone on forums who could feel someones emotional tells in their language in a few words and with a few words demolish them. The target would then get upset, like someone had put a knife into them. But you only saw it if you followed the interplay and felt what they were expressing, the vulnerability and the game. Again this individual seemed unaware of their talent, but it was powerful in social power settings like church leadership. When I tackled them about their emotional drivers, I was attacked as if I had gone where no one should go, a real enemy, and I mean full on I will tear you down approach. But if you know the game and the play it does not really work.

Another hid insults and slurs in nice speech and christian aspirations. The victim would give the benefit of the doubt to the other party, until finally the penny dropped and they asked, you were not being rude and calling me a liar were you?
And they were. The betrayal got deeper, and the person then started a war of liar calling etc. I have seen this individual do this with 10's of people, so I think it is a personality trait, and this ego boost makes them feel good, though the cost in anger and hurt is quite high.

I myself have been accused of being friendly and when speaking the truth about belief being hurtful and condemning. But the problem is Jesus is both loving and ultimately righteous and absolute. You cannot compromise. But within this also the Lord sets limits and a road of repentance and reconciliation, even negotiation. But His moving of emotion is because there is real danger and real problems that must be faced, and the benefit is both to the listener and follower and to the Lord in His work.

Machiavelli problem was his goals were wrong, not people are vulnerable. God bless you.

In ministry if you cannot read people you cannot help them or see a way through to a better resolution. Some things can be told to some and not to others, but in a different way possibly. Some need the truth plain and simple, while others need to discover it step by step, so they can cope.
 
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PeterJens said:
I scored 76. The problem with this test is it assess how well you are aware of how you could manipulate people, not that you do. It is about motivation and how information and truth effect behaviour.

What Machiavelli worked out, is if you profile someones emotional make up you can push them in the right places and get their behaviour to match your own goals while the target is completely unaware they are being played.

I have met people who do this on different levels. One lady could read emotions implicitly and then respond appropriately. It was like being in the focused eye of someone else and they could see your changes. It was almost overwhelming to get that level of detailed attention. Because I knew my emotional states well, I could track what was going on. I am sure she had no idea she did this consciously or others could not.

Another is someone on forums who could feel someones emotional tells in their language in a few words and with a few words demolish them. The target would then get upset, like someone had put a knife into them. But you only saw it if you followed the interplay and felt what they were expressing, the vulnerability and the game. Again this individual seemed unaware of their talent, but it was powerful in social power settings like church leadership. When I tackled them about their emotional drivers, I was attacked as if I had gone where no one should go, a real enemy, and I mean full on I will tear you down approach. But if you know the game and the play it does not really work.

Another hid insults and slurs in nice speech and christian aspirations. The victim would give the benefit of the doubt to the other party, until finally the penny dropped and they asked, you were not being rude and calling me a liar were you?
And they were. The betrayal got deeper, and the person then started a war of liar calling etc. I have seen this individual do this with 10's of people, so I think it is a personality trait, and this ego boost makes them feel good, though the cost in anger and hurt is quite high.

I myself have been accused of being friendly and when speaking the truth about belief being hurtful and condemning. But the problem is Jesus is both loving and ultimately righteous and absolute. You cannot compromise. But within this also the Lord sets limits and a road of repentance and reconciliation, even negotiation. But His moving of emotion is because there is real danger and real problems that must be faced, and the benefit is both to the listener and follower and to the Lord in His work.

Machiavelli problem was his goals were wrong, not people are vulnerable. God bless you.

In ministry if you cannot read people you cannot help them or see a way through to a better resolution. Some things can be told to some and not to others, but in a different way possibly. Some need the truth plain and simple, while others need to discover it step by step, so they can cope.
Click to expand...
wow great share. i was hoping there could be more posts like this.
I find myself getting in trouble at workplaces because I dont want to "play the game". i would rather be transparent and direct. this serms to attract trouble and relationship breakdown.
anyway..sorry that is not exactly machievelli I guess. thanks anyway
 
humble soul said:
wow great share. i was hoping there could be more posts like this.
I find myself getting in trouble at workplaces because I dont want to "play the game". i would rather be transparent and direct. this serms to attract trouble and relationship breakdown.
anyway..sorry that is not exactly machievelli I guess. thanks anyway
Click to expand...

I agree with being direct. But honesty may not actually be relevant. A great leadership problem is being confident in public about a choice but racked with doubt in private.
The greater the power one wields the greater the compromises actually have to be, and whatever you do, people will probably die.

And this is the issue, some jobs are tough, we just have to suck it up and give it a go.
Being honest at this cost or the difficulties after it is achieved or before the decision to take on the job is a good time. Showing support to the decision maker along the way can really help. When a new direction becomes blindingly clear, speaking up is important, it can change everything, except if timed wrongly, can be a serious problem.

So here one has the dilemma. You need to know the effect of what one is doing, and when is a good time to just carry on. It is like when someone asks how are you. What they mean is can I help in some way, or I am being polite and showing interest, or I can see you need help, but you need to ask for it, because I need your permission.

My mother who has dementia had to give permission to agree to do not resusitate instruction. So she needed to understand the question and then the answer, even though it was obvious, this had to be done. Equally not giving her biscuits in the home because she is getting too over weight cannot be done, because she must say no everytime herself, even though it is not really something she is aware of or will remember. I understand the principle of rights, but in our own home such a minor issue would be dealt with appropriately, but in a care home it is more difficult.

Equally a lot of my mothers clothing goes astray. It is because so many people are involved, and structurally it is impossible to keep control. I could lose it with someone, except there is no one, because this is just part of being in care home, it is the cost of this life. My wife got annoyed with me that I did not do more, except I want to carers to feel supported and appreciated in a difficult setting which is much more important than the clothes issue that slowly resolves. Honesty can here be counter productive.
God bless you
 
PeterJens said:
I scored 76. The problem with this test is it assess how well you are aware of how you could manipulate people, not that you do. It is about motivation and how information and truth effect behaviour.

What Machiavelli worked out, is if you profile someones emotional make up you can push them in the right places and get their behaviour to match your own goals while the target is completely unaware they are being played.

I have met people who do this on different levels. One lady could read emotions implicitly and then respond appropriately. It was like being in the focused eye of someone else and they could see your changes. It was almost overwhelming to get that level of detailed attention. Because I knew my emotional states well, I could track what was going on. I am sure she had no idea she did this consciously or others could not.

Another is someone on forums who could feel someones emotional tells in their language in a few words and with a few words demolish them. The target would then get upset, like someone had put a knife into them. But you only saw it if you followed the interplay and felt what they were expressing, the vulnerability and the game. Again this individual seemed unaware of their talent, but it was powerful in social power settings like church leadership. When I tackled them about their emotional drivers, I was attacked as if I had gone where no one should go, a real enemy, and I mean full on I will tear you down approach. But if you know the game and the play it does not really work.

Another hid insults and slurs in nice speech and christian aspirations. The victim would give the benefit of the doubt to the other party, until finally the penny dropped and they asked, you were not being rude and calling me a liar were you?
And they were. The betrayal got deeper, and the person then started a war of liar calling etc. I have seen this individual do this with 10's of people, so I think it is a personality trait, and this ego boost makes them feel good, though the cost in anger and hurt is quite high.

I myself have been accused of being friendly and when speaking the truth about belief being hurtful and condemning. But the problem is Jesus is both loving and ultimately righteous and absolute. You cannot compromise. But within this also the Lord sets limits and a road of repentance and reconciliation, even negotiation. But His moving of emotion is because there is real danger and real problems that must be faced, and the benefit is both to the listener and follower and to the Lord in His work.

Machiavelli problem was his goals were wrong, not people are vulnerable. God bless you.

In ministry if you cannot read people you cannot help them or see a way through to a better resolution. Some things can be told to some and not to others, but in a different way possibly. Some need the truth plain and simple, while others need to discover it step by step, so they can cope.
Click to expand...
I worked in offices all my life in secretarial positions (pretty high up)...and I know for sure that you cannot treat everyone the same.

Some persons get hurt at the slightest suggestion...
Some persons love to get input.
Some need you to be kind and loving,
Some just need you to tell them what to do.

Machiavelli is too philosophical for me...
but what you speak of is more practical.

I don't think we should be like Machiavelli because he sounds rather evil...
But I do think we should be a bit sensitive to others so we could understand each
other better.

I don't believe most persons are sensitive to others.
 
PeterJens said:
I agree with being direct. But honesty may not actually be relevant. A great leadership problem is being confident in public about a choice but racked with doubt in private.
The greater the power one wields the greater the compromises actually have to be, and whatever you do, people will probably die.

And this is the issue, some jobs are tough, we just have to suck it up and give it a go.
Being honest at this cost or the difficulties after it is achieved or before the decision to take on the job is a good time. Showing support to the decision maker along the way can really help. When a new direction becomes blindingly clear, speaking up is important, it can change everything, except if timed wrongly, can be a serious problem.

So here one has the dilemma. You need to know the effect of what one is doing, and when is a good time to just carry on. It is like when someone asks how are you. What they mean is can I help in some way, or I am being polite and showing interest, or I can see you need help, but you need to ask for it, because I need your permission.

My mother who has dementia had to give permission to agree to do not resusitate instruction. So she needed to understand the question and then the answer, even though it was obvious, this had to be done. Equally not giving her biscuits in the home because she is getting too over weight cannot be done, because she must say no everytime herself, even though it is not really something she is aware of or will remember. I understand the principle of rights, but in our own home such a minor issue would be dealt with appropriately, but in a care home it is more difficult.

Equally a lot of my mothers clothing goes astray. It is because so many people are involved, and structurally it is impossible to keep control. I could lose it with someone, except there is no one, because this is just part of being in care home, it is the cost of this life. My wife got annoyed with me that I did not do more, except I want to carers to feel supported and appreciated in a difficult setting which is much more important than the clothes issue that slowly resolves. Honesty can here be counter productive.
God bless you
Click to expand...
feel free to respond to any of my threads. even when they are silly or childish. and you can say so. i dont mind
 
Manipulation is obviously one of Machievelli's suggestions.
As Peter might be suggesting, we can be manipulative and not realise it.
My dog is very good at it btw.
I dont excel at it but i probably use it without knowing.
Maybe women are naturally good at it. Its a strategy we use because we cant just force our way. i worked in aged care support work briefly. we had to encourage daily showers. "Ron. You will feel like a new man if you have that shower". sorry that might be a weak example. But "my way or the highway" doesnt suit many situations.
 
wondering said:
I worked in offices all my life in secretarial positions (pretty high up)...and I know for sure that you cannot treat everyone the same.

Some persons get hurt at the slightest suggestion...
Some persons love to get input.
Some need you to be kind and loving,
Some just need you to tell them what to do.

Machiavelli is too philosophical for me...
but what you speak of is more practical.

I don't think we should be like Machiavelli because he sounds rather evil...
But I do think we should be a bit sensitive to others so we could understand each
other better.

I don't believe most persons are sensitive to others.
Click to expand...
Thou hatest a fellow Italian from Florence
 
wondering said:
I worked in offices all my life in secretarial positions (pretty high up)...and I know for sure that you cannot treat everyone the same.

Some persons get hurt at the slightest suggestion...
Some persons love to get input.
Some need you to be kind and loving,
Some just need you to tell them what to do.

Machiavelli is too philosophical for me...
but what you speak of is more practical.

I don't think we should be like Machiavelli because he sounds rather evil...
But I do think we should be a bit sensitive to others so we could understand each
other better.

I don't believe most persons are sensitive to others.
Click to expand...
Amen. Hard hearts stop feeling and do not empathise. It was found we relate to kids by remembering us as a child. If this is closed off we do not connect, because we do not see the small signals of a problem.

Psycopaths can read the emotions but never connect so have no remorse at hurt. I found I could not hurt others because it hurt me too much.

Sinners are cut off hurt and lash out to take revenge. The more shut down the less they feel. In Jesus with open hearts we can feel and see the bondage, the blindness and contradiction. But we cannot make people feel, they have to drop their defences and walk on. When people reject love you know they are locked down and insensitive, dead to life and others. Very lost. God bless you
 
I tried the strongest emotional approaches to reach some, the made me cry, yet for them, nothing.
These guys claimed they knew life and Christ better than me, but they were hard as nails. Even worse they did not notice, at all.
They would talk I mentioned feelings, but not respond where they should if they knew love and Jesus.

You cannot manipulate people into sensitivity. They need healing, repentance, openness and to let love in and their love out. They are aware something is wrong, but that is who they are, not Jesus can resolve this.

In Christ we are people of the heart. You would not notice it in Paul if you are hard hearted because there is no echo. He loved the guys he knew, really deeply. It is grapes and figs, not thorns and thistles. God bless you
 
I remember one member asking wondering on another forum do you need to love others. This guy was a pastor, a teacher and a missionary. He believed the facts, but had a real cruel streak, could feel a blow to deliver. Put downs was his skill, control and taking leadership.

He was getting treatment for cancer, and things were not going well. He was very polite and nice to friends but brutal otherwise. He was warned he would meet the Lord probably before anyone else on the forum. He did not blink. He was sure we were evil beyond measure, doomed to hell, and his faith was everything.

Whatever darkness made him like this, to oppose love and those sharing it in Jesus is the obvious sign things are totally wrong. How could the King of love be spotted by such a person, and if embraced the struggle and hatred would be clear.

The phrase I never knew you goes both ways. A pastor who asks a believer about love does not know it, is so closed down they wonder who they are and what Jesus meant.
Either you are born from on high or you are not. A bad tree cannot make itself good.
But we can repent, open our hearts and ask God to open us up and heal us.

While it is still day there is hope. God bless you
 
either you are born from on high or not?
not sure i agree with that..
most of us are born in the middle i would assert. sinful but a ray of light shining through too. a ray of hope
 
humble soul said:
either you are born from on high or not?
not sure i agree with that..
most of us are born in the middle i would assert. sinful but a ray of light shining through too. a ray of hope
Click to expand...
This is certainly how it feels. Jesus is very specific. The Father draws us. He makes us spiritually born. He chose us. We are His. We listen to Him and follow Him.
Wheat and chaff. The word finds a place to grow its roots deep in us. This is what God says we are, how heaven and His people work. On top of this we still choose, fight, struggle, persevear etc.

The Lord is encouraging us. He says simply abide, dwell and fruit will come, we will change, light dawn's, we become purified.

When you ride a bike, at what point does balance work? It does not matter, it works the longer you ride. Jesus is life, light shines, you see darkness, dirt, you clean it up. You love your sisters and brothers, you hear their struggles, you want to help, you become a body. Love in action is life. You hear its laughter and innocence, that casting way of defence and beginning of sharing. Amen
 
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God loves us all, so we need to learn how to like and love others (from PJ's signature)

So God love us. What does that mean exactly?
What part does he like? The sinful parts as well? Hubris? Hard-heartedness?
Does he like our personalities? or only our souls?
I think the better we understand God's love, the more effective we can be in loving others.
 
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