How many people have you sent to Hell?

[Jethro Bodine]

Pious hypocrisy would be one of their charges

Ah, yes, the hypocrisy card.

I remember years ago having to sit uncomfortably close to another person at work because of the merger of two divisions of our company. Something on the radio, I think it was, came up that caused him to play the hypocrisy card against the church. I told him he was condemning himself because he was showing that he knew what the standard of righteousness was but was not keeping it himself. The discussion ended immediately.

Probably the hardest thing to explain to an unbeliever--the difference between the growing pains of growing up in the faith, and outright hypocrisy.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, I believe whole heartedly that if God is tugging at their soul, and they have been feeling this need to come to know Christ, that God will provide a way for them.

I believe this wholeheartedly...because that's what God did for me.

I remember wanting to be saved but knew absolutely nothing about God (except that I was condemned and separated from God by my sin). I was hungry for God.

One Sunday I went to the local (wouldn't you like to know, lol) Church. My heart sank as I sat there in that cold dead place knowing they weren't going to be able to help me. I went back home discouraged and sad. But eventually, through a TV ministry, God told me about the love he had for me and that he cared deeply that I was trapped in sin and unable to get to him and was doomed to an eternity without him. In time, with the encouragement of the host on the TV, I cried out to him in my despair and received the mercy of God and was saved.

Despite the failure of various churches I had attended to adequately teach and live out the gospel, God led me to someone who could educate me...and I was saved. I didn't use the failure of the churches I had visited as an excuse to reject the gospel.

Even 26 years later, the grace of God I experienced during that time still brings tears to my eyes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I also think it is very wrong to deliberately try to derail a persons salvation to see just how much of a "christian" that person is.

My experience has been that is what unbelievers do, not fellow believers.

It's important to recognize it and seek quiet refuge in God during those times. That is what Christ did. He kept quiet and leaned heavily on his Father.

 

[Riniel]

I believe this wholeheartedly...because that's what God did for me.

I remember wanting to be saved but knew absolutely nothing about God (except that I was condemned and separated from God by my sin). I was hungry for God.

One Sunday I went to the local (wouldn't you like to know, lol) Church. My heart sank as I sat there in that cold dead place knowing they weren't going to be able to help me. I went back home discouraged and sad. But eventually, through a TV ministry, God told me about the love he had for me and that he cared deeply that I was trapped in sin and unable to get to him and was doomed to an eternity without him. In time, with the encouragement of the host on the TV, I cried out to him in my despair and received the mercy of God and was saved.

Despite the failure of various churches I had attended to adequately teach and live out the gospel, God led me to someone who could educate me...and I was saved. I didn't use the failure of the churches I had visited as an excuse to reject the gospel.

Even 26 years later, the grace of God I experienced during that time still brings tears to my eyes.

Hmm... yeah.. no.. I don't want to know.. not really.. lol.

I'm sure you're old enough to be my father, so I don't want to know what local church that was. lol.

I love hearing stories of how people were saved. I was born in a Christian home, so I didn't have extreme experiences outside Christianity. However, I did go through a period in my life when I was a teenager, to the age of 21, of rebellion. I wasn't really talking to God, and I was living in sin while I was searching for the truth. When you grow up in a Christian home, all your life you've been told about God, and Jesus dying for our sins, and you believe it, because up to the age of about 12, everything your parents say HAS to be the God honest truth. So, when I turned 14 I started to question the authenticity of everything that I was told. I started researching other religions, and started sinning, not caring about the consequences. At one point I was wondering if maybe I was atheist, because I wasn't finding the answers I wanted. Long story short, when I was 21, it was like a switch went off in my brain, and I suddenly knew without a shadow of a doubt that God does exist, and I re-dedicated my life to God. I decided to live celibate, and I have ever since. I've had opportunities, and temptation to go against my celibacy, but I stayed strong.

Anyway, for me, the stories of how people come to know Jesus is much more inspiring when it comes from a person who didn't know much about God before they were reborn. I still like the stories from people who grew up in Christian homes, but sometimes when you meet someone who perhaps lived a very rough life, and you hear their story of how they came to know God it can be a very powerful, and spiritually moving testimony of how great God can work in the lives of people who truly thought they would never be saved. Some people honestly believe that because of the horrible things they've done, that they are going to hell, so what's the point of being saved, since it's impossible anyway. That's what some people think, and before I changed my life, I thought that God would never forgive me for my rebellious ways, and I was nearly certain that I was going to hell.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

I figure if I can derail someone's spiritual growth, they probably were halfhearted Christians to begin with. So in reality, I am doing God's work.

If getting into heaven was easy, then everybody would be there and the place would be overcrowded.

No, seriously, I love this. I love the raw honesty here, that you're cutting to the chase of what Christianity is all about for people. What's in it for them, and forget about anyone else.

I joined this board because of the second half of its missions statement:

ChristianForums.net desires to serve non-Christians, seeking answers to questions about Christianity, by sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ so they too may acquire the hope, joy, and peace that come from fellowship with the saving grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Why did you join this board? Because your statement is 100% incompatible with that, and most people here seem to agree with it completely.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

You can lead a sinner to salvation, but you can NOT make him accept it, because he needs to know he needs it, and make space in his heart to receive it. God can't pour into your glass if it's already full of something you put in there yourself.

I realize that. Sorry for wanting to nevertheless do whatever I can to at least get people to examine God in a positive light. But don't worry, I'll be one less soul in heaven someday, burning with all those people who happily are not taking up too much space on your personal cloud.

 

[joethemechanic]

Why did you join this board?

Because I'm 51, divorced, caring for a handicapped mother who now needs 24/7 care. I am looking for answers, and I really kinda lonely. I thought fellowshipping with Christians online might help.

I've found some of that here. Although I am bothered by some of the things I read here.

 

[BobE]

I tend to agree, but would prefer to play it safe when dealing with other people's eternity. The problem with your argument here is that God doesn't desire ANYone to not believe; yet there are so many who do. This leads us to two possibilities:

1. These people's hearts are hardened; no effort of man can change them. I reject this concept because there have been numerous people who were firm nonbelievers, yet changed through the efforts of Believers.

or,

2. We ultimately have no free will; to ensure that everyone receives the exact opportunity needed to make a choice about following God, all our actions (Believers and non) are under direct Heavenly control. I reject this idea because if it is true, I had no choice but to reject it.

Therefore, I believe that we do have free will, and that there are consequences to our free will (not all of them involving solely ourselves). I'd also point out that I see this differently than mission work towards people who haven't heard the Gospel; rather my post was referring to individuals who were aware of it, and were flirting with the idea of pursuing it.

But yeah, at the end of the day I REALLY don't think we have the right to potentially gamble with other people's salvation just for our own power trips. At least, I don't see an argument that justifies it.

I think Jesus would agree with the point of your thread:

Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

“Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering” (Luke 11:46, 52, NIV).

Jesus made all of these comments when Pharisees were surprised that he did not participate in ritual washing before a meal. They had all kinds of traditions, and assumed that keeping them made one righteous. Not keeping them, in their minds, became sinful--even though the traditions did not have their origin with God. They were human standards of righteousness, not God's.

Regarding this, Jesus said they were burdening people, and hindering them. I think this can happen just as easily today, and I think Jesus would have the same message.

P.S. Btw, Jesus makes the same point, using stronger language here: Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are" (NIV).

He highlights the problem here: Mark 7:8
"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions” (NIV).

 

[Tri Unity]

Because I'm 51, divorced, caring for a handicapped mother who now needs 24/7 care. I am looking for answers, and I really kinda lonely. I thought fellowshipping with Christians online might help.

I've found some of that here. Although I am bothered by some of the things I read here.

I like reading your comments Joe; you are refreshingly honest without trying so memorize all of the lyrics in the chorus. I hope you do find some friendship here to smooth the circumstances you are in. I was a carer for many years while my wife was ill. Keep the faith brother.

 

[Tri Unity]

No, seriously, I love this. I love the raw honesty here, that you're cutting to the chase of what Christianity is all about for people. What's in it for them, and forget about anyone else.

You're inspirational for an "unbeliever"; but I suspect you believe a little. Is the whole question of evolution the big stumbling to you? or is it Christian short-sightedness? or something other? My father (and family) was stumbled by being abused by a priest. Those wounds cut deep. All of my family have contempt for God because of this one act of lunacy. Sure, if they are not meant to be God's, then they won't be... but really, they didn't need such a push into the lake of fire. I sympathize with your question and pursuit. Christians can sometimes be a big stumbling block to others. It is not "Christianity" which causes this; it is the lack of Christianity. Christians very often keep their same hardness (and sins) they had prior to becoming Christians. God has virtually had no affect on them apart from what they believe. This is not the goal of Christianity. I hope you continue to learn and finally be the Christian you think we should all be.

Tri

 

[joethemechanic]

I like reading your comments Joe; you are refreshingly honest without trying so memorize all of the lyrics in the chorus. I hope you do find some friendship here to smooth the circumstances you are in. I was a carer for many years while my wife was ill. Keep the faith brother.

Thanks

 

[Danus]

I realize that. Sorry for wanting to nevertheless do whatever I can to at least get people to examine God in a positive light. But don't worry, I'll be one less soul in heaven someday, burning with all those people who happily are not taking up too much space on your personal cloud.

If there is one thing I know about God, He will not be "accepted" or "rejected" on your terms.

He's proven this many times.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hmm... yeah.. no.. I don't want to know.. not really.. lol.

It started with an 'M'.

Now google all the churches that start with an 'M'...and continue to wonder, lol.

I'm sure you're old enough to be my father, so I don't want to know what local church that was. lol.

Old enough to be your father? What gave it away? Me sleeping in my favorite chair with my mouth hanging wide open...at 5:00 in the afternoon?

I don't want to say I'm old, but the church I went to was the 'First so-and-so Church'...No, I mean it was the first one. The very first one, lol.

Some people honestly believe that because of the horrible things they've done, that they are going to hell, so what's the point of being saved, since it's impossible anyway.

And thus the wisdom of God's way of bringing people to the utter end of themselves so they can be saved. But, part of that wisdom is being able to then see how a person will respond when they get to the end of themselves and face the impossibility of getting from here to there. Some use it as an excuse to remain as they are. Some, like me, fall on the mercy of God's court knowing there is nothing left to spare them...and are saved.

Who am I that I took the way of mercy, while others don't? I don't know. I just know it happened that way and I give all the praise and thanks to God. This is one of my favorite passages of scripture because it is exactly how I got saved:

13 “...the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.†(Luke 18:13-14 NIV1984)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

“Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering” (Luke 11:46, 52, NIV).

That is the danger...hindering people's faith. But it's impossible for a mere human to send a person to hell who would have otherwise believed and been saved had they not been exposed to someone's abuse, false teaching, etc.

Jesus made all of these comments when Pharisees were surprised that he did not participate in ritual washing before a meal. They had all kinds of traditions, and assumed that keeping them made one righteous. Not keeping them, in their minds, became sinful--even though the traditions did not have their origin with God. They were human standards of righteousness, not God's.

Regarding this, Jesus said they were burdening people, and hindering them. I think this can happen just as easily today, and I think Jesus would have the same message.

P.S. Btw, Jesus makes the same point, using stronger language here: Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are" (NIV).

The interesting thing is, Jesus knew that false teachers can only lead blind people astray, not those God has enabled to see:


10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’”

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matthew 15:10-14 NIV1984)


Only blind people can be led by a blind person. Think about it. Imagine a blind person taking you who can see by the hand and saying, "I will lead you." Can you see how impossible it is for a person who can see to submit to that? What a wonderful illustration Jesus uses.

This is one of the passages that suggests to me that God purposely allows false teachers and teachings in order to sort out the insincere from the flock ("leave them"--vs. 14). For as much flack as we raise about all the various beliefs and denominations, it actually is a way to know who can see, and who can not...for those who can see, that is.

And if anyone is still not convinced that God lets falseness reign in the earth for the purpose of sorting the sheep...

"9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NIV1984)


Are we true Christians supposed to be workers of the delusion? Of course not. As I said in a previous post, we need to be aware of how what we do can hinder people's entrance and growth into the kingdom, but we can reject any burden someone places on us that somehow someone is going to hell solely because of what we did. From the passage BobE shared (Matthew 23:15), it is actually the unbelievers who are doing that.

 

[reba]

Yup this one

 

[BobE]

That is the danger...hindering people's faith. But it's impossible for a mere human to send a person to hell who would have otherwise believed and been saved had they not been exposed to someone's abuse, false teaching, etc.




The interesting thing is, Jesus knew that false teachers can only lead blind people astray, not those God has enabled to see:


10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’”

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matthew 15:10-14 NIV1984)


Only blind people can be led by a blind person. Think about it. Imagine a blind person taking you who can see by the hand and saying, "I will lead you." Can you see how impossible it is for a person who can see to submit to that? What a wonderful illustration Jesus uses.

This is one of the passages that suggests to me that God purposely allows false teachers and teachings in order to sort out the insincere from the flock ("leave them"--vs. 14). For as much flack as we raise about all the various beliefs and denominations, it actually is a way to know who can see, and who can not...for those who can see, that is.

And if anyone is still not convinced that God lets falseness reign in the earth for the purpose of sorting the sheep...

"9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NIV1984)


Are we true Christians supposed to be workers of the delusion? Of course not. As I said in a previous post, we need to be aware of how what we do can hinder people's entrance and growth into the kingdom, but we can reject any burden someone places on us that somehow someone is going to hell solely because of what we did. From the passage BobE shared (Matthew 23:15), it is actually the unbelievers who are doing that.

Hiya Jethro,

I agree with your emphasis of the word "hinder." This is, after all, the word Jesus himself used. I think it's assigning too much responsibility to a third party to suggest that one person "causes" another to go to hell. We're talking about influence.

At the same time, I'm aware that the Pharisees were the religious leaders of Jesus' day. Because of their religiosity, they wrongly assumed they couldn't possibly be hindering people. I think it would be right to call this spiritual pride.

In their pride, they didn't see--were blinded--to the fact that they had replaced God's ways with human traditions.

Is it possible for us as Christians to do this? If we confuse our traditions with God's ways, do we also hinder others' approach to God? I think these are questions worth reflecting on, humbly and prayerfully, without shaming ourselves and assuming responsiblitiy for others' choices.

 

[reba]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

My words can hurt folks, they can help them, from one extrem to the other and every thing in between. My words, so simple or fancy, loud or quiet, no way carry the power of the Spirits calling in anothers life.