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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
How Many Returns?
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
Vic C.
Member
Once. Maybe after the harpazo, just before Armageddon; at the time of the pouring out of the last vial (bowl).
Or it could be right here:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Either way, I believe it is only once. Please correct me if I missed any verses that clearly show He came, went and came back again... in the future of course.
;-)
Or it could be right here:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Either way, I believe it is only once. Please correct me if I missed any verses that clearly show He came, went and came back again... in the future of course.
;-)
Vic C. said:
Vic, could you explain what you mean by "after the harpazo?" It's at the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4:16) the rapture and resurrection take place together. This is what I was getting at in a different thread. The rapture and resurrection take place on the same day, the last day, when Christ returns.
Resurrection in connection with the second coming:
John 5:28-29 see in connection with Dan 12:2
John 6:39-40
John 6:44
John 6:54
We are safe from God’s wrath already = John 17:15
2 Th 2:1-8 = The antichrist is destroyed and God’s elect are gathered
Believers and unbelievers are separated at the end of the age, Mat 13:37-43, Mat 13:47-50
Rewards are given when Christ returns = Isa 40:10, Mat 16:27, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 11:15-18, Rev 22:12,
Vic C.
Member
Hi Jason,
You know by now that I am fond of looking at this from a Jewish perspective, so I'll post this in reference to the Trumps of God and how they relate to End Times. Honestly, this goes over most people's heads.
The Last Trump; Rosh HaShanah; the Day of Trumpets
:
Quotes are from http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm See also http://members.aol.com/zimlechem/trump.html
This why I believe that Jesus actually sets foot on Earth some time after the harpazo. Jesus and Paul tell us we meet Him in the air; in the clouds. I'm open to correction but I believe this to be correct.
OK, so maybe we really need to define "last day". Are you reading it in a literal or literalistic sense?:
You know by now that I am fond of looking at this from a Jewish perspective, so I'll post this in reference to the Trumps of God and how they relate to End Times. Honestly, this goes over most people's heads.
The Last Trump; Rosh HaShanah; the Day of Trumpets
So according to Jewish tradition, the dead are reunited with their decendants (still alive) at the Last Trump. Messiah comes at the Great Trump, which is at Yom Kippur. Very fitting that Messiah would come on the Day of Atonement.
:Quotes are from http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm See also http://members.aol.com/zimlechem/trump.html
This why I believe that Jesus actually sets foot on Earth some time after the harpazo. Jesus and Paul tell us we meet Him in the air; in the clouds. I'm open to correction but I believe this to be correct.
OK, so maybe we really need to define "last day". Are you reading it in a literal or literalistic sense?
:JM would it make sense for the dead and the living to go to heaven at the Last trumpet, then mention us being raptured AGAIN when Jesus makes his second coming at the Great trumpet? To me, the bible is clearly talking about those that refused the mark, and have turned to God. Don't be confused by the word "Saint".. Alot think Saints are the perfect ones that haven't sinned.. Well we all have sinned, but when you are born again you have washed away all of your sins.. Alot will be born again, they will give their life to Christ, but they will still have to suffer.
Vic, I hate to be the one to break it to you but Judaism is a false religion, period. Judaism denies Christ, that’s makes what Jews believe no different then what the pagan believes, there tradition and understanding of the OT is invalid and Godless. Looking through the lens of Jewish tradition doesn’t allow us a deeper insight to truth.
Unless you believe we are saved without faith in Christ, which you don’t, you’ll agree with me. .
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Is Tit. 2:13 talking about the rapture or the second coming? Paul is talking to believers about “the blessed hope†which is God appearing. How does the rapture factor into this passage? If Paul is telling us that our blessed hope is the appearing of Christ, where does the rapture fit into all this? Will believers see Christ when He comes to rapture us?
1Cor.15:51-53
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor. 15 is speaking about dead believers being raised and given immortal bodies, which raises a tough question: if this is a rapture passage, then how do those who are alive enter into the millennial kingdom, in natural bodies? That would mean we have those who are changed from corruptible to incorruptible, mortal to immortal, along side of corruptible and mortal believers…right? That would mean those who are alive at Christ’s second coming, not the rapture, will die due to mortal and corruptible bodies.
If you will, reconsider the passages that link the dead rasing with the last day, John 5:28-29 see in connection with Dan 12:2, John 6:39-40, John 6:44 and John 6:54 it may offer something, may not.
I’ve been doubting this lately. Not enough to change my views, but enough to continue to question and study the second coming of Christ and the rapture. It just seems to make more sense to view the second coming and the rapture as one event instead of two. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1 we see "the" being used, this is singular and describes one event.
I believe that as well, the question is, how many times do believers [dead and alive] meet Christ in the air?
Please Vic, define “last day†for us. As for the literal vs. literalistic idea, let me have a swing at it. Consider Romans 9:25-26 for moment, the Holy Spirit cites Hosea 1:9-10 and 2:23 as applying an OT prophecy to the Church. This in effect identifies the Church as a “Spiritual Israel.†BUT, some will apply a literalistic interpretation of this passage, which means they’ll apply a pre-existing presupposition/hermeneutic that isn’t true to the text and maintain the Church is different from Israel. In the OT it referred to Israel, but in the NT it refers to the Church. A few other examples according to George E. Ladd would be Romans 2:28-29, 4:11, 16; Gal. 3:7, 29. Let’s not forget most of us will apply the New Covenant of Jer. 31:33-34 [rightly so] as the New Covenant made with the Church. [see Hebrews 8]
If we maintain a consistent literal interpretation we see the Church as Spiritual heir to the promises made in the OT.
That doesn’t make sense at all. I vote for one second coming.
I think you talking about Rev. 20:5 and I see evidence for your point made in v. 4 of that chpt.
~JM~
Vic C.
Member
That's entrappment!
: I can be a born again believer and still believe this. Who saya I have to agree with you? Whether or not you feel Judaism is a false religion does not negate the possibility that God will indeed use these times of years to fulfill HIS prophicies. When I think about this, I think of Jesus actually partaking in meny of these feasts. You deny Him being Jewish. I don't believe anywhere in His teachings dod He ask that no one partake of the feasts any more. He did not declare them as invalid now, did He? I'm not suggestinh we reinstitute them, but I do believe God will use them to accomplish HIS will.I'm not quite following your line of logic and thought here Jason. I really don't see a dilemma. Jesus' Second Coming will usher in the millennium, correct? Unless you aren't premil anymore, I assume you agree. Maybe I missed something, but where in the Bible does it say all who enter into the millennial period will achieve immortality?
Good, keep questioning. That's how one lears. Jason, maybe there isn't a "rapture" as we know it. Do you notice I often use harpazo instead? Maybe this is really some sort of resurrection of the dead and restoration os sorts of the living prior to Jesus' Second coming. I have no problems with it being two events and I'll get to that in a moment.
Once, is these more I missed?
Go for it! You brought it up in another post and I'm eager to learn more about it. As for me defining Last Day, I can't. I do understand it to possibility be like The Day of the Lord. As we know, the Day of the Lord isn't actually one day, so maybe Last Day isn't one day either. Is it literal or literalistic?
:You don’t have to believe that Christ is the only way of salvation, but I thought you did.
I believe you're mixing what you wrote with something you believe. You were speaking of Jewish interpretation of a text, which is just a tradition, not Biblical fact.
Yes, HE did. We are no longer required to partake of the feasts.
Nope. But I do deny Old Covenant shadows are pertaining to New Covenant realities.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
In v. 17 we find the idea of the shadow being the “holyday†and the reality being Christ. Christ lived a perfect life under the Old Covenant, He was required by Mosaic Law to keep the feasts, no where in the NT are we commanded to keep the feasts.
Yes, He did, by the Holy Spirit the Bible was written.
[Funny, but this the first verse to come to mind, it doesn’t apply but someone in the Amil camp might throw it at you] Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
1 Corinthians 5:7-8, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
As believers we have a better Sabbath and feasts, the shadows of which were prefigured in the Old Testament.
I guess I viewed Revelation 20:4-6 in a literal manner. Those who were resurrected were resurrected to life. Are you saying they can die again? What about those who were resurrected during the rapture, they can die again as well? I thought they had incorruptible bodies? When the text reads, “…they reigned with Christ for a thousand years…†are you saying they really don’t reign again for a thousand years and can die even when they have incorruptible bodies?
The use of harpazo makes sense.
The question steams from a doubt in two different returns of Christ, one called the harpazo and the other called the second coming. The essence of both seem the same.
Let me think on it. I’m better at thinking about a topic in eschatology then making posts.
~JM~
Vic C.
Member
Sorry bro, this is a misunderstanding. I do agree; I agree with John 14:6. What I was disagreeing with was this:
- 8-)
Ok, you got me there 8-) but I was speaking directly about the teachings of Jesus, not Paul.
I still think it's no coincidence that God's timing was set around these Feasts. There is strong evidence that Jesus and John the Baptist's births were around Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles. We all know the relationship between Jesus' death, Passover and the Passover Lamb. The importance of Pentecost (Shavuot) is paramount to Christianity, as will be Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur in the future. They will be inportant days in the gathering and salvation of Israel and since we are grafted in among them, they also have some importance to us as well.
Vic C.
Member
Oh, I missed this:
Just thinking...
Maybe I misunderstood you. Do you believe that there will be some who survive the Wrath and the cut during the sheep and goat judgement that make it into the millennial period? I believe there will be some and I am at a loss to find where they will be given incorruptible bodies as well, since I believe the harpazo is before this judgement.
Just thinking...
Vic C. said:
I think there would have to be unbelievers during the millennial period. Once a person is saved, they are always faithful to that calling by the power of God, for the final rebellion to take place there would have to be unbelievers who sneak by into the Kingdom...but is that possible? Man, I don't know.
:smt017
Vic C.
Member
Yes, I believe it's possible. If the Kingdom in the passage below is the millennial kingdom, this passage may explain how sin nature crept into the millennium. To me, it looks like a judgement based not on Faith but on some sort of "works". Matthew 25:32-40. Those who are cast out in this passage will get their punnishment. This is telling me that during the time of Wrath, there will be those who lend a "hand" to the Lord's people, the ones He calls "brethren" in verse 40.
Are these ones saved? Well the pasage doesn't suggest any saving faith in these individuals. It says they get the kingdom based on their merits! They get to inherit the kingdom, which I believe refers to the millennium. So it is possible that after a great amount of time, they become "ripe" to be deceived. Revelation 20:3
Maybe those who live into the millennium live for a long time, considering at this time, things may be restored to a shadow of what things were like in the the Garden. We know things will return to their full glory once the first Heaven and the first earth pass away and the new earth and Heaven are created.
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Are these ones saved? Well the pasage doesn't suggest any saving faith in these individuals. It says they get the kingdom based on their merits! They get to inherit the kingdom, which I believe refers to the millennium. So it is possible that after a great amount of time, they become "ripe" to be deceived. Revelation 20:3
Maybe those who live into the millennium live for a long time, considering at this time, things may be restored to a shadow of what things were like in the the Garden. We know things will return to their full glory once the first Heaven and the first earth pass away and the new earth and Heaven are created.
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Who gets judged at the judgement of the nations?
Let’s approach this by asking first who has been taken out. The Christians will have been taken to heaven in the rapture approximately 7 years before this. This does not mean people that are Christian in name only. People will not go up in the rapture just because they belong to a Christian church or a denomination. Only those people that have washed their sins away in the shed blood of Jesus Christ will go up in the rapture. Jesus called them “born again†because their spirit man became a “new creature†in Christ Jesus. The seal or “down payment†of the Holy Spirit was placed in their spirits. Only people with this seal will go up in the rapture.
The bible does not clearly spell this out, but I believe that all children below the age of accountability will be raptured also; at least the children with at least one born again parent. Why? If for no other reason, because many parents would insist that Jesus send them right back to earth if their children weren’t with them! It is not in the character of God to leave behind loved and innocent ones. Will the children of unsaved people be raptured also? It is probable, because they are innocent. The bible just doesn’t say. If we look at what God has done in the past, we see that all the babies died in the flood. All the babies in Sodom and Gomorrah died. However, these examples were of judgement. God’s purpose in the rapture is to take all His kids away from Judgement! Therefore, I believe God will take every child in the rapture. It will be up to God and His mercy, and His mercy endures forever!
Some people believe there will be another rapture for the tribulation saints; maybe when the 144,000 are taken to heaven, or when the two witnesses are called up to heaven. However, the scriptures simply do not give us a clear answer. John sees those saints that were beheaded during the 70th week in the millenial kingdom, so it seems likely that they must have been ressurected at some previous time.
Revelation 7
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
Why is this group sealed? What is to be their purpose? We can tell that they are sealed for their protection, because the locusts from the 5th trumpet are told to harm only those that do not have the seal of God on the forehead. They will remain on earth up to the midpoint of the tribulation, or shortly after, when the antichrist is revealed to the Jews. What is their purpose? What is written is that they are firstfruits unto God. We see this group again, in Revelation 14.
Revelation 14
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
Is this the same group? I see no reason to doubt it. In verse 3 above it is written that they would be sealed on their foreheads. Here we see in verse one that this group has the name of the Father written on their forehead. I believe it is the same group. We see in verse 4 that these 144,000 are “firstfruits†to God. It is probable that this is their sole purpose. In verse 3 we see that they are before the throne of God in heaven. How did they get there? We just don’t know. We could guess that they were raptured, but it is only a guess, because it doesn’t say.
Now we have the two witnesses and this group of 144,000 that end up in heaven. What about the tribulation saints? Will they also be raptured? Look at these scriptures.
Revelation 13
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."' "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. (Emphasis added)
All of these verses are, taken in context, are referring to the second 3½ years of the week, or the time of the great tribulation. Here we see that some of those alive on earth are saints, or people “in the Lord.†In verse 9, God refers to them as his saints. In verse 13, it says, “blessed are the dead who die in the Lord….†Again, this is talking about born again people. In verse 4, God says, “come out of her, my people,†the “her†referring to “Babylon.†All these scriptures are saying that some believers are here on earth, in the second 1260 days of the week. Many people use this as proof that the rapture could not have happened before the week started. Others might say these verses are talking about Jews. Of course there will be Jews in the second half of the tribulation trying to survive, but “saints†and “in the Lord†do not seem to be phrases that refer to the Jews in this time frame. Neither is this proof that the rapture could not have occurred earlier. There will be many people turning to God after the rapture.
The 144,000 are seen at the throne in Rev. chapter 14, before the 7 vials are poured out, so the time frame is just after the midpoint of the week. Verse 13 above, where it says “blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on,†is after the 144,000 are seen in the throne room of heaven. If there is a second rapture with the 144,000, who then are these saints still on earth? It is possible that these are new converts that will turn to God during the second half of the tribulation. I believe that in the heart of God, the purpose of judgement is to cause people to change. Hopefully there will be some that do change.
Since John doesn’t mention it, it seems unlikely that there will be a second rapture for the tribulation saints. On the other hand, John did not show the rapture at all, so if there is to be a second rapture, why would he show it? It seems that the church age is closed at the midpoint, with the blowing of the 7th trumpet. John tells us that the “mystery of God†would be finished. (Revelation 10:7) I believe this refers to the mystery of “God in us†or the Gentile church. Would God not allow all those that were born again during the first half of the week to become a part of the wife, and join the rest of the church at the wedding? With this in mind, perhaps these saints that came to God during the first 1260 days will be caught up in a second rapture. If this is the case, then all those born again during the first half of the week will not be there for the judgement of the nations.
The next group of people that cannot be a part of the judgement of the nations, are those that will die during the tribulation period. John mentions those that will be beheaded while the beast is in power. Many millions will not survive this time. When the sixth trumpet is blown, it says, “to slay the third part of men.†With a world population of 6 billion, 1/3 of this number is 2 billion people. “Men†here means mankind; men, women, and children. This is just with one trumpet! Remember, Jesus said that unless this time was shortened, no flesh would survive. Many will die as born again believers, but many will die as sinners, and will go to hell. Therefore, perhaps two to four billion people will die, and will not be around for the judgement of the nations.
Next, evil is taken from the world. This is the great reaping that the angels will perform. Who is taken here? Remember the two in the field: one is taken, and the other left? Remember two grinding at the mill: one is taken and the other left? There are many evil people in this world. Evil people planned and carried out the bombing of the World Trade Center. Only evil people plan to harm another human being. All evil people are removed from the earth at Jesus’ 2nd coming, before he ever touches down. We mentioned them earlier. If anyone takes the mark of the beast and survives the great tribulation, they too will be taken.
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The angels will not miss one person that has received this mark. They all will be taken and cast into the fire, except perhaps young children that have been marked.
The next group taken out will be all those that die at the battle of Armageddon. This will probably be mostly men, leaving mostly woman and older men left in the nations. There will probably be millions of young men that die here.
Lets summarize now who will not be at the judgement of the nations. We have had these groups removed in order: the church, including the tribulation saints and the children, the 144,000 sealed Jews, all the billions that die during the tribulation week, the two witnesses, the evil and lawless that are taken out by the angels, those that received the mark of the beast and are removed by the angels, and then all those that die at the battle of Armageddon. Who is left?
Will all the people that miss the rapture of the church, be considered evil? No. There will be some good people that will not have heard the name of Jesus still living on the earth after the rapture. However, by this time, seven years later, all people will have heard the messages of the angels that preached in every language to every nation! Some of these people from the nations will obey the messages from the angels. They will refuse the mark. They will begin to worship God. Some of these will be kind and loving people, and they will help others that have refused the mark. Will they become born again? The bible doesn’t say. However, they will become believers.
There also will be some born again people that survive the great tribulation. Remember that Jesus told His people to get out of Babylon before she is destroyed. He also said, “blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.†If there are some people that die “in the Lord,†then probably there will be some that survive. If the children of the nations were not raptured with the church, and survive to the end, they also will be left. The Jews that have escaped to the wilderness will be left. They may be the biggest group at this judgement. All these will be in the judgement of the nations. What about babies still in the wombs of unsaved mothers at the time of the rapture? If God doesn’t take them in the rapture, and they survive to the end, they will be here for the judgement of the nations, also, approximately seven years old. Let’s look at what the word says.
Revelation 13
3 …And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
God is saying that the entire world except those that are written in the Book of Life, will worship the beast. However, those that are in the book of life have refused the mark and some will survive the tribulation. At this point it time, not one adult human being will remain alive and ignorant of what is happening. God will send out angels to cover the planet, preaching in all languages, to make sure that all are without excuse. All people will be forced to make a decision for God or for the devil. People will worship God or they will worship the beast. I have heard preachers say that angels cannot preach the gospel, but here we see angels preaching!
Revelation 14
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth--to every nation, tribe, tongue, and peopleâ€â€
7 saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."
Here we see an angel preaching in every language to every human on earth, telling him or her to worship God, for the hour of His judgement has come. This will be an amazing event. It is interesting that there is no mention of Jesus as savior in the message preached. Why is this? It could be because the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and the church is complete. People are now told only to worship the God who created them. Now you see that those remaining on earth will be totally without excuse. Could this be referring to satellites? I do not think so. Next, another angel comes.
Revelation 14
8 And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Here we see a second and third angel following the first one. One can suppose, therefore, that each angel will give his message to each and every person living on this planet, in his or her own language, just as the first angel will. Once again I will say that this will leave every adult person on this planet without excuse. The angels will warn people not to take the mark of the beast. They will hear what will happen to them if they do. When do these angels go out? They will go between the trumpet judgements and the bowl or vial judgements. This will happen at or near the midpoint of the tribulation period.
What about the children left alive at this time? Jesus said, “for of such is the kingdom of heaven.†Mark says “for of such is the kingdom of God.†Here is a big question with no scriptural answer: will children of the unsaved be raptured with the church? We do not know, because the bible does not say. Will God hold a child responsible that has the mark of the beast? I do not think so. Any child under the age of accountability will be forgiven this sin, because they had no choice. There is no verse spelling this out; we can only go by the character of God. However, if these children did not go in the rapture, then some will survive the great tribulation, and will be alive at the judgement of the nations.
Some people believe that the beast will not have that much influence in the far countries of the world. What about those people left in North and South America, Australia, New Zealand, the Islands, the vast reaches of Siberia, and the masses in India and China? Many of these people are not evil or lawless, and will not be taken out of the world when the angels are sent out to reap. I believe that some of these people are kind to their fellow man. However, God’s word says that all that are not written in the Lamb’s book of life will worship the beast. I hope that many in these countries will hear the Word and believe before the tribulation comes. There will be many in these countries that will believe in Jesus after the rapture and become born again during the first half of the week. Others, in the second half of the week, will refuse the mark of the beast, will obey the message of the angels, will begin to worship God, and will survive the tribulation. They will be the “nations†represented in the judgement of the nations.
There will be the remaining 1/3 of the Jews that were protected by God for the 3½ years in the wilderness. This will probably be one of the largest groups of people at this event. We conclude that the following groups will be in the judgement of the nations: the children of the nations, if they were not raptured; the remnant of the Jews that escaped to the wilderness; those of the nations that obeyed the messages of the angels, worshipped God and refused the mark; and those that became born again after the rapture and survived the tribulation.
Jesus divides these remaining people into two groups at this judgement: the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Matthew 25
32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
What does Jesus use as a basis for this judgement? Please keep in mind that these are all believers in God. There are no heathens or nonbelievers here. There are no atheists or agnostics here. After what they have gone through, they definitely believe in God. That is, they believe that He exists. The question is, are their names written in the book of life? Do they love Him as their creator? Jesus knows the answer. Notice what Jesus says to each group.
Matthew 25
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
They asked Him when they did this, and he answered, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.†To the goat group he said:
Matthew 25
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
This group again asked Him when they did this, and he answered, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.†Then John gives us the final end of this judgement. “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." One group is righteous, one group is not. We see that these people are being judged by how they treated others. Notice that Jesus said “the least of these My brethren.†During this last half of the tribulation period, there will be many that refuse the mark of the beast, and will be hunted without mercy; especially the Jews. It will be extremely difficult for some of these to survive. Many will survive only with the help of others. This is what Jesus is referring to. Who will help the Jews that have escaped to the mountains? Who will help the Gentile believers that cannot buy or sell?
The people that really love God and have a heart to help His people, are who Jesus picks as His sheep, along with the children, if there are any, and the remaining Jews that believe. These are the righteous. God says they are the ones whose names are written in the book of life. By inference then, the goats do not have their names written there. The goats are not righteous. They are those that refused to help others in need are cast into everlasting punishment.
It seems then, that only righteous people will enter into the millennial kingdom.
Coop
Let’s approach this by asking first who has been taken out. The Christians will have been taken to heaven in the rapture approximately 7 years before this. This does not mean people that are Christian in name only. People will not go up in the rapture just because they belong to a Christian church or a denomination. Only those people that have washed their sins away in the shed blood of Jesus Christ will go up in the rapture. Jesus called them “born again†because their spirit man became a “new creature†in Christ Jesus. The seal or “down payment†of the Holy Spirit was placed in their spirits. Only people with this seal will go up in the rapture.
The bible does not clearly spell this out, but I believe that all children below the age of accountability will be raptured also; at least the children with at least one born again parent. Why? If for no other reason, because many parents would insist that Jesus send them right back to earth if their children weren’t with them! It is not in the character of God to leave behind loved and innocent ones. Will the children of unsaved people be raptured also? It is probable, because they are innocent. The bible just doesn’t say. If we look at what God has done in the past, we see that all the babies died in the flood. All the babies in Sodom and Gomorrah died. However, these examples were of judgement. God’s purpose in the rapture is to take all His kids away from Judgement! Therefore, I believe God will take every child in the rapture. It will be up to God and His mercy, and His mercy endures forever!
Some people believe there will be another rapture for the tribulation saints; maybe when the 144,000 are taken to heaven, or when the two witnesses are called up to heaven. However, the scriptures simply do not give us a clear answer. John sees those saints that were beheaded during the 70th week in the millenial kingdom, so it seems likely that they must have been ressurected at some previous time.
Revelation 7
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
Why is this group sealed? What is to be their purpose? We can tell that they are sealed for their protection, because the locusts from the 5th trumpet are told to harm only those that do not have the seal of God on the forehead. They will remain on earth up to the midpoint of the tribulation, or shortly after, when the antichrist is revealed to the Jews. What is their purpose? What is written is that they are firstfruits unto God. We see this group again, in Revelation 14.
Revelation 14
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
Is this the same group? I see no reason to doubt it. In verse 3 above it is written that they would be sealed on their foreheads. Here we see in verse one that this group has the name of the Father written on their forehead. I believe it is the same group. We see in verse 4 that these 144,000 are “firstfruits†to God. It is probable that this is their sole purpose. In verse 3 we see that they are before the throne of God in heaven. How did they get there? We just don’t know. We could guess that they were raptured, but it is only a guess, because it doesn’t say.
Now we have the two witnesses and this group of 144,000 that end up in heaven. What about the tribulation saints? Will they also be raptured? Look at these scriptures.
Revelation 13
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."' "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. (Emphasis added)
All of these verses are, taken in context, are referring to the second 3½ years of the week, or the time of the great tribulation. Here we see that some of those alive on earth are saints, or people “in the Lord.†In verse 9, God refers to them as his saints. In verse 13, it says, “blessed are the dead who die in the Lord….†Again, this is talking about born again people. In verse 4, God says, “come out of her, my people,†the “her†referring to “Babylon.†All these scriptures are saying that some believers are here on earth, in the second 1260 days of the week. Many people use this as proof that the rapture could not have happened before the week started. Others might say these verses are talking about Jews. Of course there will be Jews in the second half of the tribulation trying to survive, but “saints†and “in the Lord†do not seem to be phrases that refer to the Jews in this time frame. Neither is this proof that the rapture could not have occurred earlier. There will be many people turning to God after the rapture.
The 144,000 are seen at the throne in Rev. chapter 14, before the 7 vials are poured out, so the time frame is just after the midpoint of the week. Verse 13 above, where it says “blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on,†is after the 144,000 are seen in the throne room of heaven. If there is a second rapture with the 144,000, who then are these saints still on earth? It is possible that these are new converts that will turn to God during the second half of the tribulation. I believe that in the heart of God, the purpose of judgement is to cause people to change. Hopefully there will be some that do change.
Since John doesn’t mention it, it seems unlikely that there will be a second rapture for the tribulation saints. On the other hand, John did not show the rapture at all, so if there is to be a second rapture, why would he show it? It seems that the church age is closed at the midpoint, with the blowing of the 7th trumpet. John tells us that the “mystery of God†would be finished. (Revelation 10:7) I believe this refers to the mystery of “God in us†or the Gentile church. Would God not allow all those that were born again during the first half of the week to become a part of the wife, and join the rest of the church at the wedding? With this in mind, perhaps these saints that came to God during the first 1260 days will be caught up in a second rapture. If this is the case, then all those born again during the first half of the week will not be there for the judgement of the nations.
The next group of people that cannot be a part of the judgement of the nations, are those that will die during the tribulation period. John mentions those that will be beheaded while the beast is in power. Many millions will not survive this time. When the sixth trumpet is blown, it says, “to slay the third part of men.†With a world population of 6 billion, 1/3 of this number is 2 billion people. “Men†here means mankind; men, women, and children. This is just with one trumpet! Remember, Jesus said that unless this time was shortened, no flesh would survive. Many will die as born again believers, but many will die as sinners, and will go to hell. Therefore, perhaps two to four billion people will die, and will not be around for the judgement of the nations.
Next, evil is taken from the world. This is the great reaping that the angels will perform. Who is taken here? Remember the two in the field: one is taken, and the other left? Remember two grinding at the mill: one is taken and the other left? There are many evil people in this world. Evil people planned and carried out the bombing of the World Trade Center. Only evil people plan to harm another human being. All evil people are removed from the earth at Jesus’ 2nd coming, before he ever touches down. We mentioned them earlier. If anyone takes the mark of the beast and survives the great tribulation, they too will be taken.
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The angels will not miss one person that has received this mark. They all will be taken and cast into the fire, except perhaps young children that have been marked.
The next group taken out will be all those that die at the battle of Armageddon. This will probably be mostly men, leaving mostly woman and older men left in the nations. There will probably be millions of young men that die here.
Lets summarize now who will not be at the judgement of the nations. We have had these groups removed in order: the church, including the tribulation saints and the children, the 144,000 sealed Jews, all the billions that die during the tribulation week, the two witnesses, the evil and lawless that are taken out by the angels, those that received the mark of the beast and are removed by the angels, and then all those that die at the battle of Armageddon. Who is left?
Will all the people that miss the rapture of the church, be considered evil? No. There will be some good people that will not have heard the name of Jesus still living on the earth after the rapture. However, by this time, seven years later, all people will have heard the messages of the angels that preached in every language to every nation! Some of these people from the nations will obey the messages from the angels. They will refuse the mark. They will begin to worship God. Some of these will be kind and loving people, and they will help others that have refused the mark. Will they become born again? The bible doesn’t say. However, they will become believers.
There also will be some born again people that survive the great tribulation. Remember that Jesus told His people to get out of Babylon before she is destroyed. He also said, “blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.†If there are some people that die “in the Lord,†then probably there will be some that survive. If the children of the nations were not raptured with the church, and survive to the end, they also will be left. The Jews that have escaped to the wilderness will be left. They may be the biggest group at this judgement. All these will be in the judgement of the nations. What about babies still in the wombs of unsaved mothers at the time of the rapture? If God doesn’t take them in the rapture, and they survive to the end, they will be here for the judgement of the nations, also, approximately seven years old. Let’s look at what the word says.
Revelation 13
3 …And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
God is saying that the entire world except those that are written in the Book of Life, will worship the beast. However, those that are in the book of life have refused the mark and some will survive the tribulation. At this point it time, not one adult human being will remain alive and ignorant of what is happening. God will send out angels to cover the planet, preaching in all languages, to make sure that all are without excuse. All people will be forced to make a decision for God or for the devil. People will worship God or they will worship the beast. I have heard preachers say that angels cannot preach the gospel, but here we see angels preaching!
Revelation 14
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth--to every nation, tribe, tongue, and peopleâ€â€
7 saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."
Here we see an angel preaching in every language to every human on earth, telling him or her to worship God, for the hour of His judgement has come. This will be an amazing event. It is interesting that there is no mention of Jesus as savior in the message preached. Why is this? It could be because the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and the church is complete. People are now told only to worship the God who created them. Now you see that those remaining on earth will be totally without excuse. Could this be referring to satellites? I do not think so. Next, another angel comes.
Revelation 14
8 And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Here we see a second and third angel following the first one. One can suppose, therefore, that each angel will give his message to each and every person living on this planet, in his or her own language, just as the first angel will. Once again I will say that this will leave every adult person on this planet without excuse. The angels will warn people not to take the mark of the beast. They will hear what will happen to them if they do. When do these angels go out? They will go between the trumpet judgements and the bowl or vial judgements. This will happen at or near the midpoint of the tribulation period.
What about the children left alive at this time? Jesus said, “for of such is the kingdom of heaven.†Mark says “for of such is the kingdom of God.†Here is a big question with no scriptural answer: will children of the unsaved be raptured with the church? We do not know, because the bible does not say. Will God hold a child responsible that has the mark of the beast? I do not think so. Any child under the age of accountability will be forgiven this sin, because they had no choice. There is no verse spelling this out; we can only go by the character of God. However, if these children did not go in the rapture, then some will survive the great tribulation, and will be alive at the judgement of the nations.
Some people believe that the beast will not have that much influence in the far countries of the world. What about those people left in North and South America, Australia, New Zealand, the Islands, the vast reaches of Siberia, and the masses in India and China? Many of these people are not evil or lawless, and will not be taken out of the world when the angels are sent out to reap. I believe that some of these people are kind to their fellow man. However, God’s word says that all that are not written in the Lamb’s book of life will worship the beast. I hope that many in these countries will hear the Word and believe before the tribulation comes. There will be many in these countries that will believe in Jesus after the rapture and become born again during the first half of the week. Others, in the second half of the week, will refuse the mark of the beast, will obey the message of the angels, will begin to worship God, and will survive the tribulation. They will be the “nations†represented in the judgement of the nations.
There will be the remaining 1/3 of the Jews that were protected by God for the 3½ years in the wilderness. This will probably be one of the largest groups of people at this event. We conclude that the following groups will be in the judgement of the nations: the children of the nations, if they were not raptured; the remnant of the Jews that escaped to the wilderness; those of the nations that obeyed the messages of the angels, worshipped God and refused the mark; and those that became born again after the rapture and survived the tribulation.
Jesus divides these remaining people into two groups at this judgement: the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Matthew 25
32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
What does Jesus use as a basis for this judgement? Please keep in mind that these are all believers in God. There are no heathens or nonbelievers here. There are no atheists or agnostics here. After what they have gone through, they definitely believe in God. That is, they believe that He exists. The question is, are their names written in the book of life? Do they love Him as their creator? Jesus knows the answer. Notice what Jesus says to each group.
Matthew 25
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
They asked Him when they did this, and he answered, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.†To the goat group he said:
Matthew 25
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
This group again asked Him when they did this, and he answered, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.†Then John gives us the final end of this judgement. “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." One group is righteous, one group is not. We see that these people are being judged by how they treated others. Notice that Jesus said “the least of these My brethren.†During this last half of the tribulation period, there will be many that refuse the mark of the beast, and will be hunted without mercy; especially the Jews. It will be extremely difficult for some of these to survive. Many will survive only with the help of others. This is what Jesus is referring to. Who will help the Jews that have escaped to the mountains? Who will help the Gentile believers that cannot buy or sell?
The people that really love God and have a heart to help His people, are who Jesus picks as His sheep, along with the children, if there are any, and the remaining Jews that believe. These are the righteous. God says they are the ones whose names are written in the book of life. By inference then, the goats do not have their names written there. The goats are not righteous. They are those that refused to help others in need are cast into everlasting punishment.
It seems then, that only righteous people will enter into the millennial kingdom.
Coop
Vic C. said:
Vic, it does not say this in your passage. It is inferred by what these people have come through. Three angels have preached to every person in the world, in thier own language, so that not one human being will have an excuse about taking the mark of the beast, OR about believing in God, their creator. Then, we know that those that take the mark, are going to be toast:
Rev 14
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
We don't know exactly when this will take place. I am supposing that they are cast into hell before the judgement of the nations. But, just suppose that they are not, and are part of this judgement: it would seem that the mark would be part of what Jesus would use to judge. but since it is not, then I suppose that they are cast into hell before this - that is, any that survive.
For those that refuse the mark, and live, one might wonder why anyone would risk death if they did not believe in God? In fact, one could wonder if ANYONE could get through this 7 year period without becoming a believer that at least God exists, and is angry! I do not believe that is possible. Therefore, all people will be believers in God.
Therefore, the term "believer" then, will be somewhat different than a believer now. Today, this term usually signifies someone born again, or born of the Spirit. I cannot prove that this born again experience is even available after the church age has closed. It may be, but it may not be. If we look close at the message of the first angel, we do not see this kind of language; yet this message is what God will requre of them:
Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
It seems that all that is required here is that people recognize that God exists, and give glory to Him, and worship Him as their creator.
Therefore, I suggest that the born again experience has close with the end of the church. Therefore, I believe that all that enter the millennial kingdom will be believers; that is, they will believe that God exists, they will give glory and worship to Him.
Comments or disagreements are welcome.
Coop
Vic C.
Member
Couldn't it be poosible that some refuse the Mark on the priniciple of not wanting to submit to such an authority and still disregard the Gospel message?
We are trying to determine how this could happen:
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If all that remain alive, make it through the sheep and goat judgement, enter the Millennium and worship God, how will they be deceived? There has to be only a couple of ways; either they were not made incorruptible or their offspring did not inherit their incorruptible nature.
We are trying to determine how this could happen:
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If all that remain alive, make it through the sheep and goat judgement, enter the Millennium and worship God, how will they be deceived? There has to be only a couple of ways; either they were not made incorruptible or their offspring did not inherit their incorruptible nature.
Gabbylittleangel
Member
Not counting this, events already past:
Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
and this:
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Are we counting the one where we meet in the air?
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I am among those who see these two verses as two different events. The first commonly refered to as "The Rapture", and the second as "The Second Coming of Christ".
Rev 19:11-13 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
and this:
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Are we counting the one where we meet in the air?
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I am among those who see these two verses as two different events. The first commonly refered to as "The Rapture", and the second as "The Second Coming of Christ".
Rev 19:11-13 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Vic C. said:
Of course they are not made incorruptable, else how would they repopulate the earth? There will be many, many new babies born. Undoubtedly the birth rate will skyrocket! There is a verse somewhere that says 7 woman will cling to one man. After all, most of the men will have died at Armageddon!
Therefore, it will be new generations that turn from God, just as happened to Israel so many times. How many new generations would their be in 1000 years? Perhaps 20 to 30!
Yes, it may be possible that some would refuse the mark, and give themselves a death sentence, but I suspect this number would be very few!
Coop
D
Dee Dee Warren
Guest
The question lacks specificity IMHO. So I will read into it what I think the intent of the question is.
How many times will Jesus bodily return?
Once to consummate history. I am a former pretrib premill believer who at one times would have said twice, but the first of the two, He doesn't come all the way down. I now however reject that, but I would say that is likely a pretty majority view today. However, my answer of "once" (without the rest of what I would import into that, i.e. my view of a past Great Tribulation), has enjoyed majority over the centuries and is historically the majority view (though some variations of the "once" answer would not have Him immediately consummating history, but still retaining premill - a historic example would be Justin Martyr's historic premillennial view)
How many times will Jesus bodily return?
Once to consummate history. I am a former pretrib premill believer who at one times would have said twice, but the first of the two, He doesn't come all the way down. I now however reject that, but I would say that is likely a pretty majority view today. However, my answer of "once" (without the rest of what I would import into that, i.e. my view of a past Great Tribulation), has enjoyed majority over the centuries and is historically the majority view (though some variations of the "once" answer would not have Him immediately consummating history, but still retaining premill - a historic example would be Justin Martyr's historic premillennial view)