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Vic C. said:Once. Maybe after the harpazo, just before Armageddon; at the time of the pouring out of the last vial (bowl).
Or it could be right here:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Either way, I believe it is only once. Please correct me if I missed any verses that clearly show He came, went and came back again... in the future of course.
;-)
"We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year. In Judaism, there are three trumpets (shofarim) that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) (Exodus [Shemot] 19:19). It proclaimed that G-d had betrothed Himself to Israel. The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah. Herman Kieval also states the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days (Volume I, Rosh HaShanah, Chapter 5, Footnote 11), in the chapter on the shofar. The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of the Messiah Yeshua back to earth (Matthew [Mattityahu] 24:31)."
So according to Jewish tradition, the dead are reunited with their decendants (still alive) at the Last Trump. Messiah comes at the Great Trump, which is at Yom Kippur. Very fitting that Messiah would come on the Day of Atonement. :Martin further signifies this day by relying on the work of Theodor Gaster and his book titled "Festivals of the Jewish Year." It is stated that early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. More than our modern versions of the holiday, it was instead a day that was symbolic of the time "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year." Martin also quotes Gaster in saying that this was "the time that became a symbol of the Last Trump." (Martin, pg 96)
Hi Jason,
You know by now that I am fond of looking at this from a Jewish perspective, so I'll post this in reference to the Trumps of God and how they relate to End Times. Honestly, this goes over most people's heads.
So according to Jewish tradition, the dead are reunited with their decendants (still alive) at the Last Trump. Messiah comes at the Great Trump, which is at Yom Kippur. Very fitting that Messiah would come on the Day of Atonement.
Quotes are from http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm See also http://members.aol.com/zimlechem/trump.html
This why I believe that Jesus actually sets foot on Earth some time after the harpazo.
Jesus and Paul tell us we meet Him in the air; in the clouds. I'm open to correction but I believe this to be correct.
OK, so maybe we really need to define "last day". Are you reading it in a literal or literalistic sense?
JM would it make sense for the dead and the living to go to heaven at the Last trumpet, then mention us being raptured AGAIN when Jesus makes his second coming at the Great trumpet?
To me, the bible is clearly talking about those that refused the mark, and have turned to God. Don't be confused by the word "Saint".. Alot think Saints are the perfect ones that haven't sinned.. Well we all have sinned, but when you are born again you have washed away all of your sins.. Alot will be born again, they will give their life to Christ, but they will still have to suffer.
That's entrappment! : I can be a born again believer and still believe this. Who saya I have to agree with you? Whether or not you feel Judaism is a false religion does not negate the possibility that God will indeed use these times of years to fulfill HIS prophicies. When I think about this, I think of Jesus actually partaking in meny of these feasts. You deny Him being Jewish. I don't believe anywhere in His teachings dod He ask that no one partake of the feasts any more. He did not declare them as invalid now, did He? I'm not suggestinh we reinstitute them, but I do believe God will use them to accomplish HIS will.Vic, I hate to be the one to break it to you but Judaism is a false religion, period. Judaism denies Christ, that’s makes what Jews believe no different then what the pagan believes, there tradition and understanding of the OT is invalid and Godless. Looking through the lens of Jewish tradition doesn’t allow us a deeper insight to truth.
Unless you believe we are saved without faith in Christ, which you don’t, you’ll agree with me.
I'm not quite following your line of logic and thought here Jason. I really don't see a dilemma. Jesus' Second Coming will usher in the millennium, correct? Unless you aren't premil anymore, I assume you agree. Maybe I missed something, but where in the Bible does it say all who enter into the millennial period will achieve immortality?1Cor.15:51-53
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor. 15 is speaking about dead believers being raised and given immortal bodies, which raises a tough question: if this is a rapture passage, then how do those who are alive enter into the millennial kingdom, in natural bodies? That would mean we have those who are changed from corruptible to incorruptible, mortal to immortal, along side of corruptible and mortal believers…right? That would mean those who are alive at Christ’s second coming, not the rapture, will die due to mortal and corruptible bodies.
Good, keep questioning. That's how one lears. Jason, maybe there isn't a "rapture" as we know it. Do you notice I often use harpazo instead? Maybe this is really some sort of resurrection of the dead and restoration os sorts of the living prior to Jesus' Second coming. I have no problems with it being two events and I'll get to that in a moment.I’ve been doubting this lately. Not enough to change my views, but enough to continue to question and study the second coming of Christ and the rapture. It just seems to make more sense to view the second coming and the rapture as one event instead of two. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1 we see "the" being used, this is singular and describes one event.
Once, is these more I missed?I believe that as well, the question is, how many times do believers [dead and alive] meet Christ in the air?
Go for it! You brought it up in another post and I'm eager to learn more about it. As for me defining Last Day, I can't. I do understand it to possibility be like The Day of the Lord. As we know, the Day of the Lord isn't actually one day, so maybe Last Day isn't one day either. Is it literal or literalistic? :Please Vic, define “last day†for us. As for the literal vs. literalistic idea, let me have a swing at it.
That's entrappment! I can be a born again believer and still believe this. Who saya I have to agree with you?
Whether or not you feel Judaism is a false religion does not negate the possibility that God will indeed use these times of years to fulfill HIS prophicies.
When I think about this, I think of Jesus actually partaking in meny of these feasts.
You deny Him being Jewish.
I don't believe anywhere in His teachings dod He ask that no one partake of the feasts any more.
He did not declare them as invalid now, did He? I'm not suggestinh we reinstitute them, but I do believe God will use them to accomplish HIS will.
I guess I viewed Revelation 20:4-6 in a literal manner. Those who were resurrected were resurrected to life. Are you saying they can die again? What about those who were resurrected during the rapture, they can die again as well? I thought they had incorruptible bodies? When the text reads, “…they reigned with Christ for a thousand years…†are you saying they really don’t reign again for a thousand years and can die even when they have incorruptible bodies?I'm not quite following your line of logic and thought here Jason. I really don't see a dilemma. Jesus' Second Coming will usher in the millennium, correct? Unless you aren't premil anymore, I assume you agree. Maybe I missed something, but where in the Bible does it say all who enter into the millennial period will achieve immortality?
The use of harpazo makes sense.Good, keep questioning. That's how one lears. Jason, maybe there isn't a "rapture" as we know it. Do you notice I often use harpazo instead? Maybe this is really some sort of resurrection of the dead and restoration os sorts of the living prior to Jesus' Second coming. I have no problems with it being two events and I'll get to that in a moment.
The question steams from a doubt in two different returns of Christ, one called the harpazo and the other called the second coming. The essence of both seem the same.Once, is these more I missed?
Let me think on it. I’m better at thinking about a topic in eschatology then making posts.Go for it! You brought it up in another post and I'm eager to learn more about it. As for me defining Last Day, I can't. I do understand it to possibility be like The Day of the Lord. As we know, the Day of the Lord isn't actually one day, so maybe Last Day isn't one day either. Is it literal or literalistic?
Sorry bro, this is a misunderstanding. I do agree; I agree with John 14:6. What I was disagreeing with was this:You don’t have to believe that Christ is the only way of salvation, but I thought you did.
there tradition and understanding of the OT is invalid and Godless. Looking through the lens of Jewish tradition doesn’t allow us a deeper insight to truth.
Ok, you got me there 8-) but I was speaking directly about the teachings of Jesus, not Paul.Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
In v. 17 we find the idea of the shadow being the “holyday†and the reality being Christ. Christ lived a perfect life under the Old Covenant, He was required by Mosaic Law to keep the feasts, no where in the NT are we commanded to keep the feasts.
Maybe I misunderstood you. Do you believe that there will be some who survive the Wrath and the cut during the sheep and goat judgement that make it into the millennial period? I believe there will be some and I am at a loss to find where they will be given incorruptible bodies as well, since I believe the harpazo is before this judgement.I guess I viewed Revelation 20:4-6 in a literal manner. Those who were resurrected were resurrected to life. Are you saying they can die again? What about those who were resurrected during the rapture, they can die again as well? I thought they had incorruptible bodies? When the text reads, “…they reigned with Christ for a thousand years…†are you saying they really don’t reign again for a thousand years and can die even when they have incorruptible bodies?
Vic C. said:Oh, I missed this:
Maybe I misunderstood you. Do you believe that there will be some who survive the Wrath and the cut during the sheep and goat judgement that make it into the millennial period? I believe there will be some and I am at a loss to find where they will be given incorruptible bodies as well, since I believe the harpazo is before this judgement.
Just thinking...
Hi Coop, before I can entertain this, can you show us in the Matthew passage I quoted above where it says they are believers? Thanks.What does Jesus use as a basis for this judgement? Please keep in mind that these are all believers in God. There are no heathens or nonbelievers here.
Vic C. said:Hi Coop, before I can entertain this, can you show us in the Matthew passage I quoted above where it says they are believers? Thanks.
Vic C. said:Couldn't it be poosible that some refuse the Mark on the priniciple of not wanting to submit to such an authority and still disregard the Gospel message?
We are trying to determine how this could happen:
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If all that remain alive, make it through the sheep and goat judgement, enter the Millennium and worship God, how will they be deceived? There has to be only a couple of ways; either they were not made incorruptible or their offspring did not inherit their incorruptible nature.
I think we've reached some sort of an agreement, so unless Jason or anyone has something more to contribute, I thinks we can get back to Jason's OP:lecoop said:... Therefore, it will be new generations that turn from God, just as happened to Israel so many times. How many new generations would their be in 1000 years? Perhaps 20 to 30!Coop
JM said:How many times does Christ return?