How Many Returns?

[preterist]

JM wrote:
How many times does Christ return?

Well, John Gill says this on Matthew 24:30:

and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Mat_26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment;


He attributed the events of AD70 as a coming. He is not alone as this was a common belief before Darby.

Jesus threatened to come against the Churches of Asia in the 1st century, which coming was this suppose to be" His first? Second? Final?

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:16 Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth.

 

[Vic C.]

... a historic example would be Justin Martyr's historic premillennial view)

Ooh, ooh... *goes to find Justin's view* 8-)

Welcome to the End Times Forum.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Hi Vic, I was speaking with JM recently and he asked me to stop by. As I am the owner of another forum, I get very little time to be the forum tart and post elsewhere. Remember that C123 forums should also feel free to get in touch with me if there is anything you need from us (i.e. question about a problem poster or the like).

As far as Justin martyr, like many ECF, he was a historic premill, though the ECF do suffer from a bit of internal inconsistency in their eschatology. I have my hands on an excellent position paper from a DTS student thesis' showing how not all the ECF were premill and the inconsistencies, but I think anyone who is being fair would have to claim Martyr was a historic premill. What I find interesting about that is that while premill, he believed that the Church was Israel, so the modern dispies have quite a problem claiming him as their own since his view of the millennium was not at all driven by a need for ethnic Israel to be the proverbial head and not the tail.

Also Martyr, though some dispies who wish to anathematize nonpremill believers will try to deny this through claiming mistranslation, acknowledged that there were other true believers at his own time that did not believe in premill. (the mistranslation canard doesn't fly - if you want to know why I can let you know) - so I find Martyr very useful to show honestly that historic premill was very eary (unlike the reckless claims of some amills that the ECF were amill) and that non-premill was ALSO very early - IOW amill and premill both have very early pedigrees.

Also for further reference regarding my answer to "one to consumate" history in light of the fact of my belief in a past Great Tribulation, I proffer this for your review if you are interested:

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/warrendand.html

You will have to scroll down the second "objection" I am addressing - the first one doesn't have to do with this subject. I guess I should mark an internal hyperlink right to that subject.

(I see a few typos that I am going to have to correct anyhows)

 

[lecoop]

Hi Vic, ...
You will have to scroll down the second "objection" I am addressing - the first one doesn't have to do with this subject. I guess I should mark an internal hyperlink right to that subject.

(I see a few typos that I am going to have to correct anyhows)

Dee Dee, I enjoyed that post. I can say one thing about it: I would not want to be in a debate with you, for I would not understand many of the words you use! However, that being said, I did enjoy reading between those words I have never seen in print before! And your humor and logic are awesome!

Coop

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Thanks coop! I am glad you appreciated the humour, I have an ascerbic side, but if you get to know me well, I often turn that same humour on myself. If one can't laugh at themself, then they really can't laugh

I have been a lay speaker at several Christian events, and what is really amusing is that I am one of those types can deliver humour in a totally dry deadpan manner, while everyone else is cracking up.

There was this Christian's woman's conference I was speaking at and one of the topics was body-image and self-worth, and I repeated something I heard from a pastor who was repeating from someone else, but it was a hit. I spoke about how often we say we hate ourselves when the Scripture tell us to love others as we love ourselves. The illustration went somethng like this (and as I said, I can't take credit for coming up with it):

Member to Pastor: "But I don't love myself! I hate myself! I am so fat and ugly!"

Pastor to Member: "Of course you love yourself or you would be glad you are so fat and ugly."

rofl

 

[Vic C.]

... What I find interesting about that is that while premill, he believed that the Church was Israel, so the modern dispies have quite a problem claiming him as their own since his view of the millennium was not at all driven by a need for ethnic Israel to be the proverbial head and not the tail.

I have taken an interest in the historil premil position, ever since I read some of Newton's writings. I don't mind studying End Times from different perspectives; there is diversity in the Bible and it goes without saying, there is diversity in eschatology as well.

I too may have a problem; I am not is dispy; at least not as it is typically defined. I will check out the link you provided.

Peace,
Vic

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

If you are interested, I can tell you what yanked me from premill really quickly (this preceeded my orthodox preterist position - I abandoned premill before I abandoned futurism - and please note again orthodox preterism, I confess the future bodily coming of Christ and future bodily resurrection, just so that we are clear).

I ask if you are interested, because I know time is so short, and I don't like when people stick things in front of me that I just don't have time to deal with, or at that time, just don't have the interest to deal with - one little ole person can't be interested in everything that is important.

Let me know.

 

[Vic C.]

Start a new thread, at your convenience. I'd like to read it and I'm sure the enquiring minds around here would 'love' to give their opinion. :-D

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Sure I gotta meeting tonight but I will. Is it possible to have a thread where I am

1) just throwing somethng out there as an example of my experience, not looking to debate or provoke anyone

2) limit it to orthodox participants because I am not interested in interacting with heresy

Please let me know

 

[Vic C.]

1) just throwing somethng out there as an example of my experience, not looking to debate or provoke anyone

2) limit it to orthodox participants because I am not interested in interacting with heresy

Just post the above at the beginning of the OP and Jason and I will make it so.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Cool I will try to get to this tomorrow or so. Yell at me if I don't ;) And don't tell the posts I am ignoring at TWeb that I am over hear playing the forum tart.

 

[preterist]

2) limit it to orthodox participants because I am not interested in interacting with heresy

What? Not afraid of us poor little heretical full-preterists are you?

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I would like nothing to do with you and ask that you do not address me. If that is not a request that you can honour, or that the forum leadership cannot honour at my request, I will place you on ignore (using the forum ignore feature). However, I will rest in the satisfaction that you are proving my statements about the cultic mentality of some hyperpreterists. Thankfully that mindset is dimishing amongst the more prominent hyperpreterists, all of which I count as being on friendly terms. I will not address you again. I ask you not to address me again. If you do, your own obsessive need to parade your heresy will be duly noted by all. I pray for your repentance from your potentially damnable heresy.

For the reference of those who might wish to know my grounds for making the last statement:

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/warrengrave.html

and

http://www.preteristsite.com/faq.html#neo

though that last link will be modified when I get a chance to note the mindset shift of some leading hyperpreterists that I have had the pleasure of having personal, not doctrinal, dialog with

 

[Vic C.]

What? Not afraid of us poor little heretical full-preterists are you?

I've asked this of you before... Be nice! :smt075 and please don't harass the members.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Vic, I apologize if I have fanned the flames at all with my last post. I will not respond further to any such posts, and rather will hit report post and leave it to those entrusted to lead the forum. I apologize if I has caused any disruption.

I hope to speak with you soon.

 

[lecoop]

Start a new thread, at your convenience. I'd like to read it and I'm sure the enquiring minds around here would 'love' to give their opinion. :-D

You said that right! Any opinion differing from mine must be wrong!

: -))))))))))))))))))

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

You said that right! Any opinion differing from mine must be wrong!

: -))))))))))))))))))

Coop

Don't worry about him Dee, his views are different than most and are interesting to say the least, but he's harmless.

 

[lecoop]

Don't worry about him Dee, his views are different than most and are interesting to say the least, but he's harmless.

That is because most others are wrong! :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

The author of Revelation, who is none other than the Holy Spirit, had only one meaning to each verse, when He caused John to write. Therefore, there cannot be 10 meanings to each verse: only one! And He told me what that one was! :

To be honest, I still don't know everything, but what I know, I really know, for He taught me.

Coop

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I have forgotten about the other thread I want to start... some things at work and home just got busier than I anticipated. And are getting back on track with a prayer calendar for our co-workers at the job (we have a Christian bible study group going there) and I had to finally get that put together and ready to pass out.