- Apr 2, 2003
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Or they just failed to translate it correctly.Are you aware that from 1526-1601 our English Bibles read, "All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men", including Tyndale's Bible, Matthew's Bible, The Great Bible and the Geneva Bible? Versions that use "him" instead of "it" are reading Yeshua into the text.
Your understanding of what logos means is insufficient. There is much more to it than simply something that is spoken. Indeed, even that "the Word was God" would be difficult if the Word was merely God's words. We don't equate someone's words with the person.The "logos" (Word) of John 1:1 means "the spoken word" or "something said (including the thought)." In that sense the word is an "it," not a person but a thing. In other words, Yahweh spoke creation into existence. This understanding agrees perfectly with passages such as Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, "And Elohim said." Yahweh spoke and it was done. Ps.33:6,9 says, "By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host by the breath of his mouth. . . For He spoke and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast."
The Son has always existed:Not only did Yahweh speak creation into existence, but He also spoke His Son Yeshua into existence; "And the word (Yahweh's spoken word) was made flesh" (Jn.1:14). Yeshua did not become the "Word of [Yahweh]" until his birth as a flesh and blood male child.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Phil 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phil 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)
I have posted many times on this passage and there are several significant points being made. Suffice to say for now, that it clearly was the Son who "made himself nothing." This speaks of his preexistence, if not eternal preexistence, which it does, then in the very least his existence prior to "being found in human form."
There is also, again, John 8:58, in which, in the very least, Jesus himself claims to have existed before Abraham. Both of these passages are in agreement with John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17.
You simply cannot go changing the words used based on what you prefer, although they do nothing to what is stated. You have to deal with the contradiction with your position.I agree with the two passages above except that "by" in Col 1:16 should read "in" and "before" should read "above" as in James 5:12 and 1 Peter 4:8.
You still aren't dealing with the logic of it. If "all things" were created either "by him" or "in him", being Christ, then he cannot be one of those things, or this passage (and John 1:3 and 1 Cor 8:6) is false.The question is, what does "through" mean? It doesn't mean "by" in these verses. Yahweh created all things by speaking them into existence.
You have put the cart before the horse and the result doesn't make sense. Do you really think that because the Father planned to slay the Lamb, that he therefore "needed a venue or a stage" in order to do so? This is not the biblical view; the Son is not the reason for creation.When Yahweh created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled. Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son. Without the Son in Yahweh’s mind (in Yahweh's plan of salvation) there would be no creation. It was done “through” the Son. Trees were created so he could be hung on one. Metal was created so he could be nailed to one. People were created so he could die for them or so they could kill him, an earth was created for everything to be fulfilled, etc. At the same time, Yahweh created everything “for” His Son. It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom forever.
Again, this is not at all an argument against the deity of Jesus. He is both truly God and truly man.Since God is immortal, He cannot die. If Yeshua was the immortal God, then he didn't really die for us.