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How many YHWHs are there?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jocor
  • Start date Start date
Are you aware that from 1526-1601 our English Bibles read, "All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men", including Tyndale's Bible, Matthew's Bible, The Great Bible and the Geneva Bible? Versions that use "him" instead of "it" are reading Yeshua into the text.
Or they just failed to translate it correctly.

The "logos" (Word) of John 1:1 means "the spoken word" or "something said (including the thought)." In that sense the word is an "it," not a person but a thing. In other words, Yahweh spoke creation into existence. This understanding agrees perfectly with passages such as Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, "And Elohim said." Yahweh spoke and it was done. Ps.33:6,9 says, "By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host by the breath of his mouth. . . For He spoke and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast."
Your understanding of what logos means is insufficient. There is much more to it than simply something that is spoken. Indeed, even that "the Word was God" would be difficult if the Word was merely God's words. We don't equate someone's words with the person.

Not only did Yahweh speak creation into existence, but He also spoke His Son Yeshua into existence; "And the word (Yahweh's spoken word) was made flesh" (Jn.1:14). Yeshua did not become the "Word of [Yahweh]" until his birth as a flesh and blood male child.
The Son has always existed:

Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Phil 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phil 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

I have posted many times on this passage and there are several significant points being made. Suffice to say for now, that it clearly was the Son who "made himself nothing." This speaks of his preexistence, if not eternal preexistence, which it does, then in the very least his existence prior to "being found in human form."

There is also, again, John 8:58, in which, in the very least, Jesus himself claims to have existed before Abraham. Both of these passages are in agreement with John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17.

I agree with the two passages above except that "by" in Col 1:16 should read "in" and "before" should read "above" as in James 5:12 and 1 Peter 4:8.
You simply cannot go changing the words used based on what you prefer, although they do nothing to what is stated. You have to deal with the contradiction with your position.

The question is, what does "through" mean? It doesn't mean "by" in these verses. Yahweh created all things by speaking them into existence.
You still aren't dealing with the logic of it. If "all things" were created either "by him" or "in him", being Christ, then he cannot be one of those things, or this passage (and John 1:3 and 1 Cor 8:6) is false.

When Yahweh created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled. Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son. Without the Son in Yahweh’s mind (in Yahweh's plan of salvation) there would be no creation. It was done “through” the Son. Trees were created so he could be hung on one. Metal was created so he could be nailed to one. People were created so he could die for them or so they could kill him, an earth was created for everything to be fulfilled, etc. At the same time, Yahweh created everything “for” His Son. It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom forever.
You have put the cart before the horse and the result doesn't make sense. Do you really think that because the Father planned to slay the Lamb, that he therefore "needed a venue or a stage" in order to do so? This is not the biblical view; the Son is not the reason for creation.

Since God is immortal, He cannot die. If Yeshua was the immortal God, then he didn't really die for us.
Again, this is not at all an argument against the deity of Jesus. He is both truly God and truly man.
 
jocor said:
Since God is immortal, He cannot die. If Yeshua was the immortal God, then he didn't really die for us.

Again, this is not at all an argument against the deity of Jesus. He is both truly God and truly man.

Yeah Free I agree. It's interesting that Jesus had the power to take and give life esp. His own.

Joh 10:17-18 KJV Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. (18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
 
Is it possible our Father has found something too hard for Him, and that is to appear as man?

I agree. Nothing is 'to hard' for our Father; certainly not to appear as a man.

Are you suggesting it was the Father spoken of in Gen 18:1, the LORD who appeared in the plains at Mamre? And if so, are you suggesting that the Father is one of the three men that appeared to Abraham in Gen 18:2?

I am suggesting that it was the the LORD, the Son of God, who appeared to Abraham in the plains at Mamre, and that the other two were angels (Gen 18:22, Gen 19:1). Perhaps also it was the LORD, the Son of God, who appeared to Moses (Exo 3:1-6).
 
God the one Holy Spirit [who belongs to both the Father and to the Son]. We serve One God who Persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Brother Gregg, the above statement is the one I'm wrestling with. To me it suggests the same as if you said Jesus belongs to our Father and the Holy Spirit, or that our Father belonged to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
 
Jocor,

Muslims do not recognize Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Immanuel, God in the flesh. The Muslim god allah does dot have a son. Please give an account here of who you believe Jesus to be. It appears that you also do not recognize Jesus Christ as God in the flesh.

I thought I made that clear in post #130. If not, ask me specific questions.
 
Are you saying that these verses do not speak of the Son of God, the Messiah; but rather . . . angels?

So it seems. The context is referring to the Jews during or just after their captivity to Babylon ended. Yahweh is sending His angel to destroy the nations that dispersed/spoiled Israel. Perhaps there is a secondary fulfillment at Yeshua's second coming, but I would be reading that into the text.
 
Zec 2:8 "For thus saith the LORD of hosts [YHWH - the One being sent]; After the glory hath He [YHWH - the Sender] sent Me [YHWH - the One being sent] unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of His eye.

Zec 2:9 "For, behold, I will shake Mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent [YHWH - the Sender] Me [YHWH - the One being sent].

The One being sent is YHWH, the LORD of hosts - the Son, and the Father's Messiah
The Sender is YHWH, the LORD of hosts - the Father

Was this fulfilled in our past or will it be fulfilled in our future?
 
Brother Gregg, the above statement is the one I'm wrestling with. To me it suggests the same as if you said Jesus belongs to our Father and the Holy Spirit, or that our Father belonged to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Hi Eugene,

Here is my full statement from which you are wrestiling with a portion [bolded] - 'There is One YHWH - God the Father whose Name is YHWH, God the Son whose Name is also YHWH [the Word who became flesh], and God the one Holy Spirit [who belongs to both the Father and to the Son]. We serve One God who Persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.'

I am concerned when you say 'To me it suggests the same as if . . .' and then state something totally foreign, totally different from what I said. You are making assumptions not based on my statements.

Nothing in my statement could have possibly suggested either of your two assumptions:
1) 'Jesus belongs to our Father and the Holy Spirit'
or
2) 'our Father belonged to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.'

- - -

My [humble, waiting to be perfected] understanding is this:

The Father and the Son have [in common, share] the same Holy Spirit.
 
The Father and the Son have [in common, share] the same Holy Spirit.

I agree. However, it is the Father who gave His Spirit to the Son. So now the Son has the same Spirit living in him. Also, we do not receive the Holy Spirit directly from the Son. The Father sends a portion of His Spirit to the Son who then gives it to us.
 
Was this fulfilled in our past or will it be fulfilled in our future?
Zec 2:5-13 points to the time Israel departed from captivity in Babylon. Its Messianic fulfillment appears to have began at Christ's first coming (Zec 2:8a, and 2:10), to be completed at His Second Coming.
 
I agree. However, it is the Father who gave His Spirit to the Son. So now the Son has the same Spirit living in him. Also, we do not receive the Holy Spirit directly from the Son. The Father sends a portion of His Spirit to the Son who then gives it to us.
I differ.
 
Hi Eugene,

Here is my full statement from which you are wrestiling with a portion [bolded] - 'There is One YHWH - God the Father whose Name is YHWH, God the Son whose Name is also YHWH [the Word who became flesh], and God the one Holy Spirit [who belongs to both the Father and to the Son]. We serve One God who Persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.'

I am concerned when you say 'To me it suggests the same as if . . .' and then state something totally foreign, totally different from what I said. You are making assumptions not based on my statements.

Nothing in my statement could have possibly suggested either of your two assumptions:
1) 'Jesus belongs to our Father and the Holy Spirit'
or
2) 'our Father belonged to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.'

- - -

My [humble, waiting to be perfected] understanding is this:

The Father and the Son have [in common, share] the same Holy Spirit.
Sorry if I don't understand how you said, or were attempting to say in this, but I won't go further than say that it seems regardless how you're saying it that you agree that the Holy Spirit is God (YHWH), Jesus is God (YHWH), and our Father is God (YHWH.) Thanks.
 
Sorry if I don't understand how you said, or were attempting to say in this, but I won't go further than say that it seems regardless how you're saying it that you agree that the Holy Spirit is God (YHWH), Jesus is God (YHWH), and our Father is God (YHWH.) Thanks.
Yes.
 
Your understanding of what logos means is insufficient. There is much more to it than simply something that is spoken. Indeed, even that "the Word was God" would be difficult if the Word was merely God's words. We don't equate someone's words with the person.

I agree that there is more to the meaning of logos than I have provided, but nothing that would turn the logos of John 1:1 into a person without reading him into the text. Capitalizing the word “Word” to make it seem like a proper noun is a misleading assumption. The Greek text does not make a distinction between capitals and lower case letters.

“The Word was God” is not correct because the words are out of order. Concerning that, here is an excerpt from one the most, if not the most widely used Biblical Greek Grammars - Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar by Mounce, William D. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2003.

"As we have said, word order is employed especially for the sake of emphasis. Generally speaking, when a word is thrown to the front of the clause it is done so for emphasis. When a predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virture of word order it takes on emphasis. A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. The English versions typically have, 'and the Word was God.' But in Greek, the word order has been reversed. It reads,​

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
and God was the Word.​

We know that "the Word" is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: 'and the Word was God.' Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind: (1) why was θεὸς thrown forward? and (2) why does it lack the article? In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: 'What God was, the Word was' is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of 'God' (the Father). That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has, lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father. John's wording here is beautifully compact! It is, in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find."​

Sadly, the author introduces his own theology by placing "Jesus Christ" and "the Father" in parentheses. He then proceeds to completely distort the true interpretation. John is emphasizing the qualities of the "word" as they relate to the qualities of God. If Yahweh is powerful, so is His word. If Yahweh is creative, so is His word. The attributes of the word of Yahweh are the same as the attributes of Yahweh Himself.

The Son has always existed:

Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Phil 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phil 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

I have posted many times on this passage and there are several significant points being made. Suffice to say for now, that it clearly was the Son who "made himself nothing." This speaks of his preexistence, if not eternal preexistence, which it does, then in the very least his existence prior to "being found in human form."

There is also, again, John 8:58, in which, in the very least, Jesus himself claims to have existed before Abraham. Both of these passages are in agreement with John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17.

I addressed all these verses except 1 Cor 8:6:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by through whom are all things, and we by through him.​

Paul is clearly saying that to “us” believers in Messiah, there is only one God, the Father (Not the Son. Not the Father and the Son. Not the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Only the Father). He is also saying all things originate from the Father, not the Son. They come to us through the Son.

You simply cannot go changing the words used based on what you prefer, although they do nothing to what is stated. You have to deal with the contradiction with your position.

What is the contradiction with my position?

In Col 1:17, the word “before” is a translation of the Greek word “pro”. It can mean “before” concerning place, time, or superiority. As in James 5:12 and 1 Peter 4:8, “pro” should have been translated “above” or “superior to”. Yeshua is above all things; he did not exist before all things.

You still aren't dealing with the logic of it. If "all things" were created either "by him" or "in him", being Christ, then he cannot be one of those things, or this passage (and John 1:3 and 1 Cor 8:6) is false.

It is you who are not dealing with the fact that “through” is used, not “by”. Because you have this preconceived idea that Yeshua existed before creation, you can’t wrap your mind around how Yahweh could create all things for and through the Son that was in His plan of salvation.

You have put the cart before the horse and the result doesn't make sense. Do you really think that because the Father planned to slay the Lamb, that he therefore "needed a venue or a stage" in order to do so? This is not the biblical view; the Son is not the reason for creation.

Col 1:16 For in him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through him, and for him:​

If everything was created “FOR” Yeshua, then the Son is the “reason” for creation.

Again, this is not at all an argument against the deity of Jesus. He is both truly God and truly man.

The problem with this is that when something is pointed out that proves the Son is not “God”, Christians appeal to his humanity, but when Christians want to prove he was “God”, they point out things he did while human. Christians are always saying things like, “Only God can forgive sins” or “only God can heal the blind”, etc. But if I point out that Yeshua is not omniscient because he did not know when he would return, Christians appeal to humanity in not knowing all things. So, if he functions as both God and man at all times, then the God part of him could not die. However, the bottom line is that the phrase “truly God and truly man” is simply a creed of men not found in Scripture.
 
I agree that there is more to the meaning of logos than I have provided, but nothing that would turn the logos of John 1:1 into a person without reading him into the text. Capitalizing the word “Word” to make it seem like a proper noun is a misleading assumption. The Greek text does not make a distinction between capitals and lower case letters.

“The Word was God” is not correct because the words are out of order. Concerning that, here is an excerpt from one the most, if not the most widely used Biblical Greek Grammars - Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar by Mounce, William D. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2003.

"As we have said, word order is employed especially for the sake of emphasis. Generally speaking, when a word is thrown to the front of the clause it is done so for emphasis. When a predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virture of word order it takes on emphasis. A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. The English versions typically have, 'and the Word was God.' But in Greek, the word order has been reversed. It reads,​

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
and God was the Word.​

We know that "the Word" is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: 'and the Word was God.' Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind: (1) why was θεὸς thrown forward? and (2) why does it lack the article? In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: 'What God was, the Word was' is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of 'God' (the Father). That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has, lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father. John's wording here is beautifully compact! It is, in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find."​

Sadly, the author introduces his own theology by placing "Jesus Christ" and "the Father" in parentheses. He then proceeds to completely distort the true interpretation. John is emphasizing the qualities of the "word" as they relate to the qualities of God. If Yahweh is powerful, so is His word. If Yahweh is creative, so is His word. The attributes of the word of Yahweh are the same as the attributes of Yahweh Himself.



I addressed all these verses except 1 Cor 8:6:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by through whom are all things, and we by through him.​

Paul is clearly saying that to “us” believers in Messiah, there is only one God, the Father (Not the Son. Not the Father and the Son. Not the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Only the Father). He is also saying all things originate from the Father, not the Son. They come to us through the Son.



What is the contradiction with my position?

In Col 1:17, the word “before” is a translation of the Greek word “pro”. It can mean “before” concerning place, time, or superiority. As in James 5:12 and 1 Peter 4:8, “pro” should have been translated “above” or “superior to”. Yeshua is above all things; he did not exist before all things.



It is you who are not dealing with the fact that “through” is used, not “by”. Because you have this preconceived idea that Yeshua existed before creation, you can’t wrap your mind around how Yahweh could create all things for and through the Son that was in His plan of salvation.



Col 1:16 For in him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through him, and for him:​

If everything was created “FOR” Yeshua, then the Son is the “reason” for creation.



The problem with this is that when something is pointed out that proves the Son is not “God”, Christians appeal to his humanity, but when Christians want to prove he was “God”, they point out things he did while human. Christians are always saying things like, “Only God can forgive sins” or “only God can heal the blind”, etc. But if I point out that Yeshua is not omniscient because he did not know when he would return, Christians appeal to humanity in not knowing all things. So, if he functions as both God and man at all times, then the God part of him could not die. However, the bottom line is that the phrase “truly God and truly man” is simply a creed of men not found in Scripture.

All the human reasoning and "explanations" and theories, and interpretations by "scholars"... can not explain away the simple and straightforward truth of these scriptures.


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

and again -

that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:11

There is one Lord and He is God!

It's that simple!

The Lord is God!

If you don't confess Jesus Christ as LORD, then you can't be saved.

That is the Gospel.

You must confess The Lord Jesus and believe god raised Him from the dead.

One Lord and He is God.

I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, Isaiah 45:5

Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; 'For Yah, the Lord, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation.' " Isaiah 12:2


Jesus Christ is God who BECAME FLESH!


JLB
 
:goodpost

It's amazing to me how hard it seems to be for some to believe in our Lord, Jesus, the Christ.Even just as a 'grade schooler' in Christ, I find it hard not to believe (not that I try, lol)

It's doubly amazing that many of the people who don't or can't believe in God, seem to have no problem believing in evil, or magic, or whatever pseudonym they choose. :confused
 
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifested in the flesh,Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Here is how other versions translate the same verse:

"He appeared in a body" (NIV)

"He who was manifested in the flesh" (ASV)

"He who was revealed in the flesh" (NASB)

"He was manifested in the flesh" (RSV)

"Which was manifested in the flesh" (Douey-Rheims)

"Who was manifested in the flesh" (NAB)"​

You can do your own research as to why they differ. You can start here:

that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,to the glory of God the Father

I believe this with all my heart except the erroneous name “Jesus” which our Savior could not possibly be born with.

There is one Lord and He is God!

1 Cor 8:6 says the Father is the one God as does our Savior in John 17:3. I’ll believe them.

If you don't confess Jesus Christ as LORD, then you can't be saved.

That is the Gospel.

You must confess The Lord Jesus and believe god raised Him from the dead.

Interesting how you changed the “Lord” of Ph 2:11 to “LORD” as in “YHWH”. I suggest you don’t treat the Word so lightly. I do confess the Master Yeshua and believe his Father raised him from the dead. Am I saved in your eyes?

I am the Lord
, and there is no other;There is no God besides Me.I will gird you, though you have not known Me,Isaiah 45:5

Yahweh the Father is quite correct. He is the ONLY true Elohim (God) as both He and His Son and Paul taught (John 17:3; 1 Cor 8:6)

Behold,God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; 'For Yah, the Lord, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation.' "Isaiah 12:2


Jesus Christ is God who BECAME FLESH!

That entire chapter is talking about the Father, yet you choose to read the Son into the text and break a cardinal rule of hermeneutics.
Yeshua is the word that became flesh!
 
jocor said -

"He appeared in a body" (NIV)

What appeared in a body.

What became flesh?

An Angel or God?

What did God beget?

What created all things before He appeared in a body?

If you say a man became flesh, then you are now preaching re-incarnation.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

The Word became flesh.

What was He before He became flesh?

Some Spirit being that existed before He became flesh, and that Abraham saw... and rejoiced.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." Genesis 17:1-2

What are you claiming became flesh?

An Angel or God?



JLB
 
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