How many YHWHs are there?

[Eugene]

Scripture says the other two were angels (Gen 19:1). The One we need to focus on is the One that Abraham addressed as Adoni and LORD.

The LORD is accompanied by two others several times, whether they are angels or common men: to Abraham, with two men at the Transfiguration, with two men upon the cross.

- - -

Back to this thread, the Father and the Son have the Name YHWH. Their Spirit is the Spirit of the LORD, the Spirit of YHWH.

Is it possible our Father has found something too hard for Him, and that is to appear as man?

Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do.

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

Gen 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord

Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom

Gen 19:10 But the men put forth their hand

Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. (I thought the two common men were to destroy the city?)

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. God destroyed the city.

 

[Gregg]

I looked at it, attempted to find the scripture you were I believe to have been quoted and couldn't find it on a few. Is there a certain bible you're using? I even copied a few words and pasted them in the search of different bibles producing no results and gave up. Thanks.

Hi Eugene,

I was using the LITV. I'll provide a similar post with KJV.

Which is the Father and which is the Son?

For thus saith the LORD [ ___ ] of hosts;
After the glory hath he [ ___ ] sent me [ ___ ]
unto the nations which spoiled you:
for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his [ ___ ] eye.
For, behold, I [ ___ ] will shake mine [ ___ ] hand upon them,
and they shall be a spoil to their servants:
and ye shall know that the LORD [ ___ ] of hosts hath sent me [ ___ ].
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion:
for, lo, I [ ___ ] come, and I will [ ___ ] dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD [ ___ ].
And many nations shall be joined to the LORD [ ___ ] in that day,
and shall be my [ ___ ] people:
and I will dwell in the midst of thee,
and thou shalt know that the LORD [ ___ ] of hosts hath sent me [ ___ ] unto thee. (Zec 2:8-11 KJV)

 

[Eugene]

The Father and the Son have the same Holy Spirit.

2 Jn 1:9 He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

I may be wrong but I’m assuming the following scripture is what you’re referring to.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I would then ask what Spirit men receive when they believe on the Lord Jesus? And then we read in Act 19:2, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

 

[jocor]

Any takers? Please fill in either "Father" or "Son" in the brackets:

"For so says Jehovah [ ___ ] of hosts:
He [ ___ ] has sent Me [ ___ ] after glory,
to the nations who plundered you;
for he who touches you touches the pupil of His [ ___ ] eye.
For, behold, I [ ___ ] will shake My [ ___ ] hand over them,
and they shall be a prize for their servants.
And you shall know that Jehovah [ ___ ] has sent Me [ ___ ].
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion.
For, lo, I [ ___ ] come; and I [ ___ ] will dwell among you, says Jehovah [ ___ ].
And many nations shall be joined to Jehovah [ ___ ] in that day,
and they shall be My [ ___ ] people.
And I [ ___ ] will dwell among you;
and you shall know that Jehovah [ ___ ] of hosts has sent Me [ ___ ] to you." (Zec 2:8-11)

What translation is that? I don't know of a version that renders vs.8 like that.

You did not allow for filling the blank with someone other than the Father or the Son, so I took the liberty of adding someone. "A" = one of the angels of verse 3.

"For so says Jehovah [ _F__ ] of hosts:
He [ _F__ ] has sent Me [ _A__ ] after glory,
to the nations who plundered you;
for he who touches you touches the pupil of His [ _F__ ] eye.
For, behold, I [ _A__ ] will shake My [ __A_ ] hand over them,
and they shall be a prize for their servants.
And you shall know that Jehovah [ _F__ ] has sent Me [ __A_ ].

Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion.
For, lo, I [ __F_ ] come; and I [ _F__ ] will dwell among you, says Jehovah [ _F__ ].
And many nations shall be joined to Jehovah [ __F_ ] in that day,
and they shall be My [ _F__ ] people.
And I [ F__ ] will dwell among you;
and you shall know that Jehovah [ __F_ ] of hosts has sent Me [ __A_ ] to you." (Zec 2:8-11)

Zechariah used the same phrase, "has sent me unto you" two other times - Zech 4:9 & 6:15, both referring to himself.

 

[jocor]

Muslim? They too believe Jesus was a prophet.

Are you asking if I am a Muslim? If so, why would you do that if you believe Jesus was a prophet as well? Should I ask you if you are a Muslim?

 

[jocor]

Good word Brother.

No man has seen God [The father]... John 1:18


They all were seeing God the Son, or YHWH.

God who became flesh.

God was manifested in the flesh... 1 Timothy 3:16


JLB

They were all seeing angels.

 

[Eugene]

Are you asking if I am a Muslim? If so, why would you do that if you believe Jesus was a prophet as well? Should I ask you if you are a Muslim?

You can, and I have no reluctance in answering no, and never will be a Muslim. Jesus indicated He was a prophet in Mark 6:4, But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

 

[JLB]

D - He was definitely a propet as we would all agree.

B - He was not "a god" in the sense that YHWH is God, thereby making two gods. He was "an elohim" in the sense that the mighty men of Israel were "elohim" (Psalm 82:1 & 6)

So you believe Jesus was a man, a prophet, a mighty man?

Yes or know.

JLB

 

[jocor]

You can, and I have no reluctance in answering no, and never will be a Muslim. Jesus indicated He was a prophet in Mark 6:4, But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

No I am not a Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, JW, SDA, etc. I am a Messianic Israelite. I cannot call myself a Christian since I do not believe several key doctrines of Christianity, not to mention I was kicked out of Christianity when I started keeping the Sabbath. I am, however, a follower of Messiah Yeshua and trust in Yahweh for my salvation, justification, sanctification and resurrection unto eternal life through Yeshua.

 

[jocor]

So you believe Jesus was a man, a prophet, a mighty man?

Yes or know.

JLB

I have made my beliefs perfectly clear to those who are listening. I'll try again for your sake. Yeshua was 100% man, 0% "God" as in the type of "God" his Father is. He is an "elohim" (god) in the sense that the mighty ones of Israel were. He is a prophet, King and High Priest of Yahweh. He is the man chosen by Yahweh to be a mediator between the one true God (Yahweh, the Father) and man. Yeshua had a God that he worshipped. If he wasn't worshipping himself, then he was worshipping a God separate from himself. Since there is only one God, then Yeshua cannot be Him. He is the Son of God as it is written. Not to mention, God cannot die.

 

[Eugene]

No I am not a Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, JW, SDA, etc. I am a Messianic Israelite. I cannot call myself a Christian since I do not believe several key doctrines of Christianity, not to mention I was kicked out of Christianity when I started keeping the Sabbath. I am, however, a follower of Messiah Yeshua and trust in Yahweh for my salvation, justification, sanctification and resurrection unto eternal life through Yeshua.

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I'm really surprised at your being kicked out of a church for keeping the Sabbath; God receives you also, and as my brother in Christ whether you claim the title Christian or not for whatever reason is up to you, and our Father will increase knowledge in all of us to come to His perfect will for us.

The doctrines you have of Jesus not being Jehovah is completely foreign to me coming from Messianic teachings, but we have some members here that are Messianic and maybe they can straighten me up as to their doctrines. Thanks.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Free]

I have made my beliefs perfectly clear to those who are listening. I'll try again for your sake. Yeshua was 100% man, 0% "God" as in the type of "God" his Father is. He is an "elohim" (god) in the sense that the mighty ones of Israel were. He is a prophet, King and High Priest of Yahweh. He is the man chosen by Yahweh to be a mediator between the one true God (Yahweh, the Father) and man. Yeshua had a God that he worshipped. If he wasn't worshipping himself, then he was worshipping a God separate from himself. Since there is only one God, then Yeshua cannot be Him. He is the Son of God as it is written.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Notice that all three passages are in complete agreement--that not one thing that has come into being has come into being without the Son. The only logical conclusion is that the Son cannot be one of those things that has come into being. Therefore, he has always existed. To disagree is to say that those passages are lying.

Not to mention, God cannot die.

That has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus was God.

 

[jocor]

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I'm really surprised at your being kicked out of a church for keeping the Sabbath; God receives you also, and as my brother in Christ whether you claim the title Christian or not for whatever reason is up to you, and our Father will increase knowledge in all of us to come to His perfect will for us.

The doctrines you have of Jesus not being Jehovah is completely foreign to me coming from Messianic teachings, but we have some members here that are Messianic and maybe they can straighten me up as to their doctrines. Thanks.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Thanks for your acceptance of me as a brother in Messiah/Christ. That is an uncommon reaction. I usually get names hurled at me or told I don't have the Holy Spirit, etc. When I said I was a
Messianic Israelite", I was distancing myself from "Messianic Judaism" which either accepts Yeshua as YHWH or as a second YHWH. I am simply a man who is grafted onto the natural olive tree of Israel through faith in Messiah Yeshua, thus a "Messianic Israelite".

 

[jocor]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Are you aware that from 1526-1601 our English Bibles read, "All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men", including Tyndale's Bible, Matthew's Bible, The Great Bible and the Geneva Bible? Versions that use "him" instead of "it" are reading Yeshua into the text.

The "logos" (Word) of John 1:1 means "the spoken word" or "something said (including the thought)." In that sense the word is an "it," not a person but a thing. In other words, Yahweh spoke creation into existence. This understanding agrees perfectly with passages such as Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, "And Elohim said." Yahweh spoke and it was done. Ps.33:6,9 says, "By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host by the breath of his mouth. . . For He spoke and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast." Not only did Yahweh speak creation into existence, but He also spoke His Son Yeshua into existence; "And the word (Yahweh's spoken word) was made flesh" (Jn.1:14). Yeshua did not become the "Word of [Yahweh]" until his birth as a flesh and blood male child.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Notice that all three passages are in complete agreement--that not one thing that has come into being has come into being without the Son. The only logical conclusion is that the Son cannot be one of those things that has come into being. Therefore, he has always existed. To disagree is to say that those passages are lying.

I agree with the two passages above except that "by" in Col 1:16 should read "in" and "before" should read "above" as in James 5:12 and 1 Peter 4:8. The question is, what does "through" mean? It doesn't mean "by" in these verses. Yahweh created all things by speaking them into existence. When Yahweh created all things, He did it because the lamb slain before the foundation of the world needed a venue or a stage, so to speak, for that to be fulfilled. Therefore, the impetus for creation was the Son. Without the Son in Yahweh’s mind (in Yahweh's plan of salvation) there would be no creation. It was done “through” the Son. Trees were created so he could be hung on one. Metal was created so he could be nailed to one. People were created so he could die for them or so they could kill him, an earth was created for everything to be fulfilled, etc. At the same time, Yahweh created everything “for” His Son. It was part of His plan to give all power and authority to His Son so that he would rule the entire Kingdom forever.

That has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus was God.

Since God is immortal, He cannot die. If Yeshua was the immortal God, then he didn't really die for us.

 

[Gregg]

2 Jn 1:9 He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

I may be wrong but I’m assuming the following scripture is what you’re referring to.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I would then ask what Spirit men receive when they believe on the Lord Jesus? And then we read in Act 19:2, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

Your tone expresses disagreement , yet without stating your case or objection. Please state specifically how you agree or disagree with what I have posted in this thread.

 

[Gregg]

What translation is that? I don't know of a version that renders vs.8 like that.

You did not allow for filling the blank with someone other than the Father or the Son, so I took the liberty of adding someone. "A" = one of the angels of verse 3.

"For so says Jehovah [ _F__ ] of hosts:
He [ _F__ ] has sent Me [ _A__ ] after glory,
to the nations who plundered you;
for he who touches you touches the pupil of His [ _F__ ] eye.
For, behold, I [ _A__ ] will shake My [ __A_ ] hand over them,
and they shall be a prize for their servants.
And you shall know that Jehovah [ _F__ ] has sent Me [ __A_ ].

Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion.
For, lo, I [ __F_ ] come; and I [ _F__ ] will dwell among you, says Jehovah [ _F__ ].
And many nations shall be joined to Jehovah [ __F_ ] in that day,
and they shall be My [ _F__ ] people.
And I [ F__ ] will dwell among you;
and you shall know that Jehovah [ __F_ ] of hosts has sent Me [ __A_ ] to you." (Zec 2:8-11)

Zechariah used the same phrase, "has sent me unto you" two other times - Zech 4:9 & 6:15, both referring to himself.

Are you saying that these verses do not speak of the Son of God, the Messiah; but rather . . . angels?

 

[Gregg]

Are you asking if I am a Muslim? If so, why would you do that if you believe Jesus was a prophet as well? Should I ask you if you are a Muslim?

Jocor,

Muslims do not recognize Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Immanuel, God in the flesh. The Muslim god allah does dot have a son. Please give an account here of who you believe Jesus to be. It appears that you also do not recognize Jesus Christ as God in the flesh.

 

[Gregg]

Zec 2:8 "For thus saith the LORD of hosts [YHWH - the One being sent]; After the glory hath He [YHWH - the Sender] sent Me [YHWH - the One being sent] unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of His eye.

Zec 2:9 "For, behold, I will shake Mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent [YHWH - the Sender] Me [YHWH - the One being sent].

The One being sent is YHWH, the LORD of hosts - the Son, and the Father's Messiah
The Sender is YHWH, the LORD of hosts - the Father

 

[Eugene]

Your tone expresses disagreement , yet without stating your case or objection. Please state specifically how you agree or disagree with what I have posted in this thread.

Hi Brother Gregg. Disagreement?

Yes I do disagree with the concept of the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God our Father, and God our Savior Jesus. I do not know if you can assimilate this type of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit as three distinct personages as one God or not, but I’ll just suggest Genesis Chapter 24. There are the types of Abraham being the Father (God) seeking a bride for His son Isaac (Jesus) from His own people, and sending Eliezer, his eldest servant (The Holy Spirit) to bring Rebekah (The bride of Christ).

The Holy Ghost is also addressed to be God in Act 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

 

[Gregg]

Hi Brother Gregg. Disagreement?

Yes I do disagree with the concept of the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God our Father, and God our Savior Jesus. I do not know if you can assimilate this type of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit as three distinct personages as one God or not, but I’ll just suggest Genesis Chapter 24. There are the types of Abraham being the Father (God) seeking a bride for His son Isaac (Jesus) from His own people, and sending Eliezer, his eldest servant (The Holy Spirit) to bring Rebekah (The bride of Christ).

The Holy Ghost is also addressed to be God in Act 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

As I have said many times, I recognize the Holy Spirit as God. I have never said otherwise.

I understand the types you mentioned: Abraham, Isaac, Eliezer, and Rebekah; and I am in agreement. Those types are amplified in Jn 4:3-42 where Jesus sat by a well; a place similar to [if not the same] where Eliezer met Rebakah, and where Jacob met Rachael.

We should be careful to recognize when Scripture refers to the Son of God preincarnate [YHWH before He became flesh], and afterwards as Immaneul [YHWH, the Son of God in the flesh].

There is One YHWH - God the Father whose Name is YHWH, God the Son whose Name is also YHWH [the Word who became flesh], and God the one Holy Spirit [who belongs to both the Father and to the Son]. We serve One God who Persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.