How much is enough?

[Cygnus]

From this kind of reasoning it's not an amount of good deeds. It's an either or kind of sitution. Either your following God, or your not. Moment by moment, day by day, we have opportunities to follow God's teachings. To either act on or ignore. We also have many more trying tests like King Saul had, to show if we will wait for God, trust God, or act honorably.

yeah, yeah, yeah..that's all souds well and good...but lets be serious.
I've seen people post like this..."Either your following God, or your not. Moment by moment, day by day,"

Do we really follow God/Christ like you described? Do we always act on Gods word? I think every christian here can answer with an honest no. For the most part I think the "no" is more often than not.

As to your first paragraph, I would love to see such a verse. Perhaps it's there...perhaps not.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

yeah, yeah, yeah..that's all souds well and good...but lets be serious.
I've seen people post like this..."Either your following God, or your not. Moment by moment, day by day,"

Do we really follow God/Christ like you described? Do we always act on Gods word? I think every christian here can answer with an honest no. For the most part I think the "no" is more often than not.

As to your first paragraph, I would love to see such a verse. Perhaps it's there...perhaps not.

You asked the question "how much." And repeated it when it was not answered by an amount. But the serious aspect is that it's not a number issue. It's a loyality issue. To ask it as a numbers kind of question misrepresents the concepts I've seen argued for by a OSNAS kind of standpoint.

The point on how often do we act on God's word verses how often do we sin, I think is closer on the mark to questioning the concepts of OSNAS, as I've seen them and understood them. My best answer would be that as often that we don't turn back to God would be the crucial moments.

I'll continue to try to remember the verse that I didn't post, and I hope I did the verse justice without misrepresenting it. In the mean time, I have a point for you to consider as well. The OSAS vs OSNAS discussions seem to revolve around two basic concepts as I see them. "How much of our actions are we responsible for?" and "What happens when we do wrong?"

From a OSAS argument the answers I hear is we are responsible for our actions but will lose any rewards in Heaven by our sins. Conversely on a OSNAS outlook, our salvation, not just our rewards, are at stake. So for the benifit of these discussions that are going on. (Several threads on the merits or critisms of OSAS/OSNAS are still going). For those discussions I want to ask you. How much of our faith are we responsible for? How much do we need to be faithful?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

yeah, yeah, yeah..that's all souds well and good...but lets be serious.

On another note though. Consider your words quoted above. And consider how you would react if they were given to you. These kinds of words are an easy way to set aside what you say without actually addressing them or considering them. If they were used on your points how would you react? Because of Jesus's teachings that even what we say will be taken into account. From every idle thing we say will be judged, to His teaching that calling a person an idiot or a term of contempt is risky to be placed before the judges or the fires of hell. Because of these things I'm sure I'm a nuisance to nitpick your words. Still though consider the golden rule and apply it even to what you say. Just saying.

 

[Nathan]

Problem is, people concentrate on the 'how' and not the 'Who'. More thought is put into how someone can get something and keep it, than Who gives it and keeps them.

Out of the mouth of man proceeds the things of their heart.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Please climb down off your pious horse.
"Why do you call me Lord if you do not obey what I say.".......I ask you, do you always obey the Lord?

This form of keeping your butt in check so you don't burn in hell rather than doing what's right to glorify God is very disturbing. I believe it is you who ought to accept the correction.

I'm sorry if I gave you a burden too much. If I did then I'm sorry.

 

[reba]

is there a verse that says what you posted?

is there a verse that says

"There is a difference between falling out of fellowship with God than falling out of salvation. Willful sin pushes us from fellowship. Yes, Christians are warned against willful sin.

 

[Edward]

I was just answering this ...How closely you follow God directly affects where you'll spend Eternity, choice.

...is there a verse that says what you posted? "How closely you follow God directly affects where you'll spend Eternity, choice."

Just for the record, how close is enough...and how directly does it effect where you spend eternity?

if you don't follow real close...will you end up in heavens slums?

Heavens slums? No such thing. Scripture describes differences in heaven, and rank in heaven so there may be something to this. But I wouldn't go as far as to say slums, for some will be rewarded more than others. Scripture describes mansions in heaven...rooms in the Fathers house...and says that we'll be judged and rewarded according to our works, so lay up your treasure in heaven...

It also says the first will be last and the last first...that may reference the bema seat where he who gets the least reward in heaven, will be first to receive it...and on down the line to he who will be rewarded more than any other will be last at the ceremony. Who get a mansion, and who gets a room in the fathers house? I would guess that the Bride of Christ and those called the sons of God would be living at the Fathers house? Then the servants and friends get to live in the mansions? Something like that...

 

[Cygnus]

is there a verse that says

Yes....
1 Cor 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

......Laying down work that is burnt up indicates to me that a person not laying down good works is way out of fellowship with God.
Verse 15 gets interesting..."If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved".
The persons works were judged....they suffered loss and were still saved. Because the person was saved and this verse isn't a judgement concerning salvation it indicates that the person fell out of fellowship and not salvation.

 

[reba]

Where does the above passage say this "

There is a difference between falling out of fellowship with God than falling out of salvation. Willful sin pushes us from fellowship. Yes, Christians are warned against willful sin.

 

[Cygnus]

Heavens slums? No such thing. Scripture describes differences in heaven, and rank in heaven so there may be something to this. But I wouldn't go as far as to say slums, for some will be rewarded more than others. Scripture describes mansions in heaven...rooms in the Fathers house...and says that we'll be judged and rewarded according to our works, so lay up your treasure in heaven...

It also says the first will be last and the last first...that may reference the bema seat where he who gets the least reward in heaven, will be first to receive it...and on down the line to he who will be rewarded more than any other will be last at the ceremony. Who get a mansion, and who gets a room in the fathers house? I would guess that the Bride of Christ and those called the sons of God would be living at the Fathers house? Then the servants and friends get to live in the mansions? Something like that...

Concerning the slums.....satire.
th1b.taylor seemed to indicate to me when he said...."How closely you follow God directly affects where you'll spend Eternity, choice."... sounded like he was presenting 2 choices for eternity...heaven or hell.
I can also see him meaning that in heaven there are different levels in which we will make a choice to spend eternity.

The slum? I looked at what he said as being a choice between heaven and hell. Perhaps th1b.taylor can clarify. If the choice between heaven and hell is determined by how close we get, a real close life with God would then give a person a real close eternity with God. Some one not close at all would choose hell. Somebody in-between would be just saved in heaven and living in the furthest part of heaven away from God. Someone just a little further away from God would be living in the top level of hell. Hells best would be Gods slum.
I don't really buy into the how close you are to God determins where you spend eternity.

 

[Cygnus]

Where does the above passage say this "

I just explained it...where is your problem?

 

[WIP]

Let's keep this discussion on topic and remember the forum rules.

 

[Edward]

I don't really buy into the how close you are to God determins where you spend eternity.

Well He either knows you or He doesn't, right? If you walk and talk with Him (and read about Him), then He knows you.

Matthew 7:21-23 This even has another qualifier...but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.../ So it's not enough to be a hearer only and not a doer.

 

[Seabass]

How much is enough? That is a question for those that believe we merit or earn salvation. How much "good" must we do?
For the OSNAS posters.....How much good works, merit, following Christ must we do to remain in salvation?

Do we need to do one act of "good" a day? 20 acts of good a week? 1,000 acts of good a month? What's the number?

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

God "before ordained" Christians do good works, so it is not possible to be a faithful Christian while being void of good works. Therefore are you suggesting that since God preordained Christians do good works that means God is requiring Christians earn some thing by requiring good works be performed?

Also, does Eph 2:10 give a specific number of good works that must done at a certain frequency?

 

[Cygnus]

God "before ordained" Christians do good works, so it is not possible to be a faithful Christian while being void of good works. Therefore are you suggesting that since God preordained Christians do good works that means God is requiring Christians earn some thing by requiring good works be performed?

O course not. Good works earn you nothing towards salvation. But on the other hand, at the Bema Seat we will receive rewards.

1 Cor 3:. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Seabass]

O course not. Good works earn you nothing towards salvation. But on the other hand, at the Bema Seat we will receive rewards.

1 Cor 3:. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

You were implying in the OP that if one does good works he is trying to earn some thing. And it is GOD that is requiring the good works::

--So we have GOD (not man) requires/mandates the Christian do good works else the Christian will not be saved.(not just loss of rewards)
--Therefore GOD (not man) has made doing good works a necessary part of the Christian's salvation, (not rewards)
--So is GOD requiring the Christian to earn salvation by doing good works?

Or could the reality be that God has made good works a condition on His free gift of salvation? Therefore doing good works earn nothing but is just meeting the necessary conditions God has places upon His free gift of eternal life He has already offered to man and man receives that g

 

[WIP]

You were implying in the OP that if one does good works he is trying to earn some thing. And it is GOD that is requiring the good works::

--So we have GOD (not man) requires/mandates the Christian do good works else the Christian will not be saved.(not just loss of rewards)
--Therefore GOD (not man) has made doing good works a necessary part of the Christian's salvation, (not rewards)
--So is GOD requiring the Christian to earn salvation by doing good works?

Or could the reality be that God has made good works a condition on His free gift of salvation? Therefore doing good works earn nothing but is just meeting the necessary conditions God has places upon His free gift of eternal life He has already offered to man and man receives that g

I think this is echoed in Luke 17:6-10 NKJV
So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

 

[Cygnus]

You were implying in the OP that if one does good works he is trying to earn some thing. And it is GOD that is requiring the good works::

The difference is that some do good works to fullfull some requirement so their butt can be saved....others do the good works because of their salvation and the desire to do good work for the gloey of God.

Which one do you like?

 

[Seabass]

I think this is echoed in Luke 17:6-10 NKJV
So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do

So the Christian doing good works is just doing his duty in doing what is commanded of him and those works do not, cannot merit salvation.

 

[Seabass]

The difference is that some do good works to fullfull some requirement so their butt can be saved....others do the good works because of their salvation and the desire to do good work for the gloey of God.

Which one do you like?

My point is good works are REQUIRED by God seeing that God has preordained Christians to do good works.

So either God is requiring the Christian to earn some thing by doing good works
or
doing good works is just meeting a condition God has places upon His free gift of eternal life and earn nothing.

Which do you choose?

=====

You posted "others do the good works because of their salvation and the desire to do good work for the gloey of God"

What the Christian "desires" to do or not do plays no part in what God has mandated/required of the Christian. So salvation is a matter of fulfilling "some requirement" and not just a matter of what the Christian "desires" to do or not do.