[__ Science __ ] How old is the earth?

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Some Christians think that the earth is between 6000 to 15,000 years old (coinciding with the Neolithic Age). Scientists think that it is 4.5 billion years old. Here is an attempt to resolve this incongruity.

Jesus turns water into wine in John 2:
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. 8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

How old is this wine?

If you ask the servants, the human observers/witnesses, they would say a few seconds old.

The story continues:
9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

If you ask the expert, the master of the banquet, "How old is this wine?", he would say it was some months or even years old.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the perspective. The supernatural perspective tells us that it was only a second old. The natural perspective tells us that it was at least some months old. Note that I have not defined time; I merely point to two perspectives on time. These are 2 different methodologies for measuring the duration of time.

Similarly, in Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. ... 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

How old is the earth?

If we ask a scientist from the natural perspective, he can only study the present-day physical data based on scientific calculation. It is 4.5 billion years old. That's the scientific space-time perspective, 3-d space + 1-d time. Space-time is calculated by mathematical formulas.

On the other hand, from the supernatural angle, if we read the Bible literally, the present-day earth is only some thousands of years old. That's the biblical witnessed-time perspective. Witnessed-time (or testified-time) is based on human memories from Adam downward.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the time perspective. God created the earth with the embedded evolutionary records of billions of years. The Bible is not a scientific treatise. It focuses on the story of redemption. In terms of witnessed-time history, it is only some thousands of years old. On the other hand, from the scientific-time point of view, the earth is billions of years old.

Why would God deceive people or scientists?

God did not deceive people. The end-products of a miracle, have to obey the laws of physics and space-time.

Did not God create the universe last Thursday?

No, this is not the same as Last Thursdayism because God tells me the contrary. God did not create the universe last Thursday. Genesis contradicts this. As a witness, I can also contradict this. I was alive last Thursday. God was with me. God dwells in me. It happened in witnessed-time. I didn't see God create this universe last Thursday. I believe in the words of God, not Last Thursdayism.

Jesus spoke about it as a historical witnessed-time event in Mark 10:
6 But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

From the perspective of scientific time, the details of this embedding are amazing:

There are two different frameworks of time. Roughly, witnessed-time started when Adam opened his eyes. Space-time is measured by scientific calculations. Even scientifically, there is something funny about time.

I distinguish between these two perspectives of time. The Bible speaks of events that happened in the historical witnessed-time. Scientific research speaks in terms of space-time. Both are real as far as today's people are concerned. In terms of First-Order Logic, they are both true. Both are real depending on your perspective of time. It only proves God's creative power :)
 
Some Christians think that the earth is between 6000 to 15,000 years old (coinciding with the Neolithic Age). Scientists think that it is 4.5 billion years old. Here is an attempt to resolve this incongruity.

Jesus turns water into wine in John 2:


How old is this wine?

If you ask the servants, the human observers/witnesses, they would say a few seconds old.

The story continues:


If you ask the expert, the master of the banquet, "How old is this wine?", he would say it was some months or even years old.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the perspective. The supernatural perspective tells us that it was only a second old. The natural perspective tells us that it was at least some months old. Note that I have not defined time; I merely point to two perspectives on time. These are 2 different methodologies for measuring the duration of time.

Similarly, in Genesis 1:


How old is the earth?

If we ask a scientist from the natural perspective, he can only study the present-day physical data based on scientific calculation. It is 4.5 billion years old. That's the scientific space-time perspective, 3-d space + 1-d time. Space-time is calculated by mathematical formulas.

On the other hand, from the supernatural angle, if we read the Bible literally, the present-day earth is only some thousands of years old. That's the biblical witnessed-time perspective. Witnessed-time (or testified-time) is based on human memories from Adam downward.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the time perspective. God created the earth with the embedded evolutionary records of billions of years. The Bible is not a scientific treatise. It focuses on the story of redemption. In terms of witnessed-time history, it is only some thousands of years old. On the other hand, from the scientific-time point of view, the earth is billions of years old.

Why would God deceive people or scientists?

God did not deceive people. The end-products of a miracle, have to obey the laws of physics and space-time.

Did not God create the universe last Thursday?

No, this is not the same as Last Thursdayism because God tells me the contrary. God did not create the universe last Thursday. Genesis contradicts this. As a witness, I can also contradict this. I was alive last Thursday. God was with me. God dwells in me. It happened in witnessed-time. I didn't see God create this universe last Thursday. I believe in the words of God, not Last Thursdayism.

Jesus spoke about it as a historical witnessed-time event in Mark 10:


From the perspective of scientific time, the details of this embedding are amazing:

There are two different frameworks of time. Roughly, witnessed-time started when Adam opened his eyes. Space-time is measured by scientific calculations. Even scientifically, there is something funny about time.

I distinguish between these two perspectives of time. The Bible speaks of events that happened in the historical witnessed-time. Scientific research speaks in terms of space-time. Both are real as far as today's people are concerned. In terms of First-Order Logic, they are both true. Both are real depending on your perspective of time. It only proves God's creative power :)
Genesis 1:14 kjv
14. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15. And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18. And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Time (as we know it) did not start till day 4.
The 24 hour days depend on the sun and moon.

The previous 3 days of creation are not defined as to length. Just a dark period then a light period.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
I don't understand your question. The end result is some people believed in him and some said he was a fake. The end result is, it's not physically possible to walk across a lake unless it's frozen.
In the case of water turned into wine, by "end-product", I meant the physical wine.
 
Right. What about the end-products, the results of a miracle?
It is according to the viewer.

Regarding wine:

The steward thought it was natural good wine. He thought the good wine was saved to last. No miracle.

The disciples knew it was a miracle. They observed the miracle. We by faith know the testimony is true.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Right. Similarly, some people didn't think the current observable universe was created by God with a miracle.
Yes
But
OMHO, Your post had time before time. Time started on day 4. The appearance of creation being millions of years old just comes to those who do not have the oracles of God (OT).

Without the oracles of God, gentiles can think we were seeded by aliens.
Our job is to present the good information Jews have.
And
Admit some Jews were terrible.
And
Be warned if gentile Christian’s mess up they can be removed as the Jews were.

Jews can be grafted back in.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
I distinguish between space-time and witnessed-time. Do you?
The scripture is silent about pre eternity, the first 3 days. Me taking a guess is fruitless.

I told a geology professor I did not believe in Uniformitarianism, and in that course I got a D ( I took the hint and did not take a 3rd course under him.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Right, that's why the process of turning water into wine is a miracle.
I guess we agree then. I just don't understand what your original point was.
We're subject to time, but God isn't.

It's the same with the gospel. While it's true God (as a man) subjected himself to Moses law, he did so voluntarily, to show his superiority over death. He showed us how great his love, patience and mercy are by bearing sin being committed against him,

he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; Isa.53:5

The sins committed against Jesus are punishable by death,

If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse someone of a crime.....
if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite,
then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party.
Deu.19:16,18-19

This is the only way our Savior "did away with the law."
 
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