How the very early manuscripts were safeguarded from error

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

I accept them wholeheartedly.
But elevating men to "throne" status is not of God.

That is idolatry.

Where is that written against ?

Here are the qualifications for being a bishop in the Church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)...
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." (1 Tim 3:2-7)
Do orthadox bishops have families ? Wives ? Kids ?

You said:

I accept them wholeheartedly.
But elevating men to "throne" status is not of God.

My response:

That is nothing but your opinion. The throne represents the authority. That is all.

You said:
That is idolatry

My response:
Nonsense.

You said:
Where is that written against

My response:
I don't know. You were the one making out that kissing equals worship. You still are. So I am asking you where that is written.
As for your question about Bishops.
What used to be a Bishop is now a local Priest. Bishops now oversee regions. Priests oversee local parishes and Deacons are their helpers.
Priests are able to marry, yes. My Priest has two children with his Preotessa.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You said:

I accept them wholeheartedly.
But elevating men to "throne" status is not of God.

My response:

That is nothing but your opinion. The throne represents the authority. That is all.

You said:
That is idolatry

My response:
Nonsense.

You said:
Where is that written against

My response:
I don't know. You were the one making out that kissing equals worship. You still are. So I am asking you where that is written.
As for your question about Bishops.
What used to be a Bishop is now a local Priest. Bishops now oversee regions. Priests oversee local parishes and Deacons are their helpers.
Priests are able to marry, yes. My Priest has two children with his Preotessa.

I despise men's efforts to change the original church.
Kissing idols is idolatrous.

Did you know that if you hit the "Reply" button at the bottom-right of my post, you can enter your responses right after each of my sentences ? Just tap your "Enter" key at the end of each sentence you want to reply to.
That way you won't need to copy-paste my comments.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

I despise men's efforts to change the original church.
Kissing idols is idolatrous.

Did you know that if you hit the "Reply" button at the bottom-right of my post, you can enter your responses right after each of my sentences ? Just tap your "Enter" key at the end of each sentence you want to reply to.
That way you won't need to copy-paste my comments.

You despise men's efforts to change the original Church. I guess that means you were there.
How do you know that the Church did not kiss Icons? According to the Church, the very same Church which preserved the Holy Scriptures and the Doctrines of the Apostles, it is Saint Luke who wrote the first Holy Icon of the child Jesus and His mother Mary.
And Christ Himself gave to the world the Icon made without hands.
Point being, you have no authority or power, or even basic historical evidence, to make pronouncements about what is or is not the original Church.
I find it amusing that you think you know how the original Church operated in all her details.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You despise men's efforts to change the original Church. I guess that means you were there.

Why would you suppose that?

How do you know that the Church did not kiss Icons?

The church has the Law written in its heart, so idolatrous behavior would be anathema.

According to the Church, the very same Church which preserved the Holy Scriptures and the Doctrines of the Apostles, it is Saint Luke who wrote the first Holy Icon of the child Jesus and His mother Mary.

How does one write an icon ?

And Christ Himself gave to the world the Icon made without hands.

What would that be ?

Point being, you have no authority or power, or even basic historical evidence, to make pronouncements about what is or is not the original Church.
I find it amusing that you think you know how the original Church operated in all her details.

The original church is still going strong, and has not wavered from God's initial standards.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Why would you suppose that?

The church has the Law written in its heart, so idolatrous behavior would be anathema.

How does one write an icon ?

What would that be ?

The original church is still going strong, and has not wavered from God's initial standards.

I agree the original Church is still going strong. It is called the Orthodox Church.
I have a painting on my wall that belonged to my mother. It has been a part of my life all of my life. It is of Jesus standing at a door and knocking.
Is that an idol?
If I cross myself most times that I pass by it, have I committed idolatry?
I have a very beautiful icon of the last supper made of thin sheets of gold and silver. It is on the wall of my kitchen.
Is that an idol? If it makes me want to pray to the Lord every time I see it, am I committing idolatry?
I really do thank God that He has freed me of the Law.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Why would you suppose that?

The church has the Law written in its heart, so idolatrous behavior would be anathema.

How does one write an icon ?

What would that be ?

The original church is still going strong, and has not wavered from God's initial standards.

As for your question. Holy Icons are considered "written" because they are God Breathed. Inspiration in the Church is not confined to the Canon of Scripture. And the Icon made without hands is the Mandylion.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I agree the original Church is still going strong. It is called the Orthodox Church.
I have a painting on my wall that belonged to my mother. It has been a part of my life all of my life. It is of Jesus standing at a door and knocking.
Is that an idol?
If I cross myself most times that I pass by it, have I committed idolatry?
I have a very beautiful icon of the last supper made of thin sheets of gold and silver. It is on the wall of my kitchen.
Is that an idol? If it makes me want to pray to the Lord every time I see it, am I committing idolatry?
I really do thank God that He has freed me of the Law.

If you cannot throw those things into the trash can, they are idols.

 

[Hopeful 2]

As for your question. Holy Icons are considered "written" because they are God Breathed. Inspiration in the Church is not confined to the Canon of Scripture. And the Icon made without hands is the Mandylion.

Is every bible on earth an 'icon' ?

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

If you cannot throw those things into the trash can, they are idols.

I disagree that I have to throw away sacred things or they are idols. The only way your statement would be true is if I had to chose between them and God Himself, or a loved one or some higher duty.
Would you spit on a photograph of your mother and stomp it into the mud?
Of course, under duress, like to save the life of your child or even yourself one might do such a thing. But under normal conditions?
The point here is that physical objects can be sacred. And the other point is that your rigid iconoclasm has you judging your brother, when you have no right to do so.
I recommend you read Romans 14.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Is every bible on earth an 'icon' ?

Interesting question. It may very well be considered so because the Word of God is His Image (ie.icon).

 

[Hopeful 2]

I disagree that I have to throw away sacred things or they are idols. The only way your statement would be true is if I had to chose between them and God Himself, or a loved one or some higher duty.

If God said not to bow to other gods, would you keep bowing to statues and pictures ? (Ex 20:4-5)

Would you spit on a photograph of your mother and stomp it into the mud?
Of course, under duress, like to save the life of your child or even yourself one might do such a thing. But under normal conditions?

If I did, it would not be a sin.

The point here is that physical objects can be sacred.

No physical object is sacred.
That is idolatry.

And the other point is that your rigid iconoclasm has you judging your brother, when you have no right to do so.
I recommend you read Romans 14.

I'm was just asking questions.
If you feel judged, it is because you know something is wrong.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Interesting question. It may very well be considered so because the Word of God is His Image (ie.icon).

Again, you are blending spoken words with the Word who was with God and was God from the very beginning.
They are two distinct things.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

You said:
If God said not to bow to other gods, would you keep bowing to statues and pictures ? (Ex 20:4-5)

My response:
If I was worshipping the images as my gods, then your question might make sense.

You said:
If I did, it would not be a sin.

My response:
If you spit on a picture of your mother and stomped it into the mud for no actual reason, sorry, but that would be a sin. It would be a show of contempt and hatred for your mother.

You said:
No physical object is sacred.
That is idolatry.

My response:
So, the tablets of stone kept in the Ark of the Covenant were not sacred? How about the Ark itself? What about the Veil of the Temple? Sacred or not sacred? How about the Serpent on a pole that God ordered the Israelites to do obescience to in order to be healed? No problem...just throw that in the trash, right? How about the images of cherubim all over the Temple of Solomon? Worthy of contempt and mud stomping with impunity?
Jews, since ancient times kept small scrolls of the Torah in the doorstop and when passing from, or into, their homes would touch them and then touch their foreheads in reverence, they also kissed or put the scroll of the Torah read at Synagogue to their foreheads before they read it, out of veneration and reverence.
I guess, according to you, all of those practices made the Hebrews Idolaters?
According to Holy Scripture (Hebrews 11:21) Jacob, as he was dying, worshipped on the top of his staff. Ooops...idolatry....

You said:
I'm was just asking questions.
If you feel judged, it is because you know something is wrong.

My response:
You have been calling me an idolater since the beginning of our exchange. I don't "feel judged". You have judged me without authority and in violation of the Holy Scriptures. You should apologize.
It would be different if you were RESPECTFUL in your discourse...example..."I don't mean to offend or judge but I consider that to be heresy"....But that is not what you have done.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Again, you are blending spoken words with the Word who was with God and was God from the very beginning.
They are two distinct things.

I don't know what this means. The Spoken Word is Living and is the Lord. The Spoken Word has also been WRITTEN DOWN and constitutes Sacred Scripture. To trash the physical copies of the Holy Scriptures would be PROFANE. I would never do such a thing and cannot comprehend why you think it is ok.
In fact, we owe the extreme reverence that the Church treated copies of the Holy Scriptures with for the various very ancient copies of the Scriptures that have come down to us, like the Codex Alexandrius. That is 1400 years old. It was preserved because it contained scribal errors and thus could not be read in the Churches, so it was shelved.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't know what this means. The Spoken Word is Living and is the Lord.

You have just elevated writings to idol status.
In the beginning was the Word, who was with God.
It was not written that... in the beginning was the spoken word and the spoken word was God.
The Word was as much an actual entity as Father is.

The Spoken Word has also been WRITTEN DOWN and constitutes Sacred Scripture.

Still, they are not the Lord Himself.

To trash the physical copies of the Holy Scriptures would be PROFANE.

They are just ink and paper.
More can be printed.

I would never do such a thing and cannot comprehend why you think it is ok.

I don't think it is OK, but it is also not sacrilege.

In fact, we owe the extreme reverence that the Church treated copies of the Holy Scriptures with for the various very ancient copies of the Scriptures that have come down to us, like the Codex Alexandrius. That is 1400 years old. It was preserved because it contained scribal errors and thus could not be read in the Churches, so it was shelved.

Is "trashing physical copies of the Holy Scriptures" sacrilege to you ? (Rom 2:22)

 

[Hopeful 2]

You said:
If God said not to bow to other gods, would you keep bowing to statues and pictures ? (Ex 20:4-5)

My response:
If I was worshipping the images as my gods, then your question might make sense.

You said:
If I did, it would not be a sin.

My response:
If you spit on a picture of your mother and stomped it into the mud for no actual reason, sorry, but that would be a sin. It would be a show of contempt and hatred for your mother.

You said:
No physical object is sacred.
That is idolatry.

My response:
So, the tablets of stone kept in the Ark of the Covenant were not sacred? How about the Ark itself? What about the Veil of the Temple? Sacred or not sacred? How about the Serpent on a pole that God ordered the Israelites to do obescience to in order to be healed? No problem...just throw that in the trash, right? How about the images of cherubim all over the Temple of Solomon? Worthy of contempt and mud stomping with impunity?
Jews, since ancient times kept small scrolls of the Torah in the doorstop and when passing from, or into, their homes would touch them and then touch their foreheads in reverence, they also kissed or put the scroll of the Torah read at Synagogue to their foreheads before they read it, out of veneration and reverence.
I guess, according to you, all of those practices made the Hebrews Idolaters?
According to Holy Scripture (Hebrews 11:21) Jacob, as he was dying, worshipped on the top of his staff. Ooops...idolatry....

You said:
I'm was just asking questions.
If you feel judged, it is because you know something is wrong.

My response:
You have been calling me an idolater since the beginning of our exchange. I don't "feel judged". You have judged me without authority and in violation of the Holy Scriptures. You should apologize.
It would be different if you were RESPECTFUL in your discourse...example..."I don't mean to offend or judge but I consider that to be heresy"....But that is not what you have done.

I can only go by what scripture, and you, say.
My responses are from the heart.
Did Jesus ever say..."I don't mean to offend or judge but I consider that to be heresy" ?