How to defend the trinity!

[D-D-W]

I will repeat what I have previously posted. For purposes of this discussion, when I am speaking about a Christian, I am referring to a person who believes in Jesus Christ. When I am speaking about a Jew, I am referring to an adherent of Judaism.

So you do not believe that Messianic Judaism is a true Judaism?

I am not arguing Jews cease being Jews when they convert to Christianity. That is a straw man. However, when Jews do convert to Christianity, they normally cease practicing Judaism and instead embrace and practice Christianity (i.e. they believe in Jesus Christ).

But I would argue that there is no actual "conversion" at all, just a logical next step in Judaism: New Covenant Judaism.

Are you aware that there are many "black hat orthodox" Jews who sit in a synagogue daily and live in a closed "haredi" community that believe in Jesus?

As a reminder, the Judaiziers were condemned at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

I know of no "judaizers" today. After all, what does a Judaizer teach and believe?

Acts 15:1b
“Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Circumcision is the final step in formal conversion to traditional Judaism.

 

[Mosheli]

The Ahavat Elohim messianic forum statement of faith says:
"We believe in one God, who manifests Himself in three forms: The Father, The Messiah (The Son), and The Holy Spirit. Because Yeshua The Messiah is HaDavar, the very word of God (see Yochanan/John chapter1), we consider him to be a part of the God of Yisra'el. Thus, we consider The Messiah to be a manifestation of God in the flesh.

"The Shema ("Hear O Yisra'el, YHVH our God, YHVH is one" Deut. 6:4) teaches that God is one (Echad / a compound unity). God is the creator and ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things. He alone is our God. He was, He is and He will be. He is the first and the last, the Aleph (Alpha) and the Tav (Omega), and besides Him there is no other.

"We believe that Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus The Messiah) is The Annointed One all of the scriptures point to, and also the primary builder of The Kingdom Of Heaven. We believe in His virgin birth...."

So the "trinity" is not anathema to all modern Jews, though it is to modern non-messianic Jews, and though messianics don't agree with the name/idea "trinity" (not sure exactly what te difference is).

Evidences for "tri-unity" of God in bible. (Some of the people in this thread have already mentioned a few of them.)

- Elohim in Genesis 1 is plural.
- God said "we/us/our" in Genesis 1. (Allah also says we/us/our in Koran.) How else can we explain the origin of the use of pluralis majesticus by kings etc?
- "God is love". You can not have love with only one all alone. Ehad "one" value 13 = Ahava "love" value 13, 13 = 1 & 3?
- In the verse "hear oh Israel the lord your God is One" the word for "one" is Echad/Yahad which is plural singular like unity/union not only singular one all alone.
- Jesus on cross said "Eloi Eloi why have you forsaken me". That is two Elois which plus Jesus equals three?
- "Holy holy holy" in Isaiah and Revelation. Was & is & is to come? God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob?
- A source says the holy of holies of the temple is alternatively read "place of the 3 holy ones"?
- Islam says Allah has "two right hands", which means two not one?
- The number 666.
- The "false trinity" of Dragon, beast/antichrist, false prophet.
- Cabala has upper and lower trinities. (Kether, Binah, Hokhmah.)
- Hebrew language has 3 letter/consonant roots.
- YHWH/JHVH has three letters.
- Man is in image of God. Man is 3 parts body, soul, spirit.
- Triads in nature. 3 lobes of brain. 3 dimensions. 3 states of matter. "space, matter, energy"? 3 letters in blood groups (ABO)? 3 types of finger prints?
- Trinities in other nations mythologies. 3 Hermes / Hermes Trismegistus. Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva.
- 3 parts of Tanak (Torah/Law, Writings, Prophets)? 3 main names of God? 3 Abrahamic religions? 3 languages of bible & of INRI (Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin, and Greek)?
- 3 crucifixion nails in Caiaphas ossuary? (And 3 crosses? And 3 days?) Or 3 arms of cross (head and arms/hands)?
- "The Lord said to my Lord" (Psalms) equals two.
- "The Lord bless you and keep you" verse has the Lord three times.
- "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19.
- "the Father, the Word and the Spirit, and these 3 are 1" (1 John 5:7-8).

- The abbreviation INRI of the words in the cross superscription is YHWH/JHVH in Hebrew.
- Jesus was called Lord (Kyrios/Adonai).
- Pliny the Younger records that Christians sang a hymn to Christ as a god.
- Jesus made clay when he healed the blind man, like the Creator in Genesis 1-2.
Jesus walked on water like the spirit of God in Genesis 1?
- Meanings of names of 10 patriarchs in Genesis "..., the Blessed God, shall come down, teaching, his death shall bring, despairing, comfort."
- "God was manifest in the flesh...." 1 Timothy 3:16.
- Jesus calmed the storm in the sea of Galilee and the apostles said "who is this that commands even the wind and the sea" implying a connection with God.
- "Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God" (Philippians 2:5-5).
- "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9).
- "The son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being...." (Hebrews 1:3.)
- Jesus is called the "Only begotten" "Son of (the most high) God". How can God have a son that is not also God too? "Son of God = incarnation of God".
- Jesus said to the disciples/apostles "I and the Father are One", "He who has seen me has seen the Father".
- Jesus is confirmed as one with God in this verse "For unto us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:7).
- "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). "through whom he (Jesus) also made the universe" (Hebrews 1:2). "Jesus Christ, by who are all things, and we exist through him" (1 Cor 8:5-7).
- The spirit of God and the spirit of Christ seem to be the same in Romans 8:9?

- The name Jesus/Yeshua has Yah in it. "Yehoshua/Jesus is Yhwh/Jhvh with an -sh- put in it"?
- Emmanuel means "El/God with us".
- Why did Jews try to stone Jesus for blasphemy?
- People are told not to worship men or angels, but Jesus didn't stop people who worshiped him.
- Thomas said "My Lord and my God".
- Jesus said "I Am".
- Jonah said salvation is from Yhwh (Yeshua in reverse).
- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
- "who is this who forgives sins? only God can forgive sins".
- Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega. In Genesis 1 God is the Aleph and the Tau.

- God is God and can divide himself into any number of parts he likes.

 

[JLB]

Are you aware that there are many "black hat orthodox" Jews who sit in a synagogue daily and live in a closed "haredi" community that believe in Jesus?

Just as there were in the first century.

However, believing in Him without confessing and obeying Him as Lord is useless.


Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; John 12:42


“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 10:32-33



Here is an example of some Jews who believed in Him —



Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
John 8:31-47





JLB

 

[D-D-W]

Just as there were in the first century.
However, believing in Him without confessing and obeying Him as Lord is useless.
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; John 12:42

And yet at some later point they did:

Acts 21:20
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands** there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

** greek indicates tens of thousands

My bible reads like this:

Joel 2:32a
“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered;

that is quoted in Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13. The final word is translated "saved."

 

[JLB]

And yet at some later point they did:

Some believed and confessed him and followed Him, while others, as the example I gave did not confess Him as Lord, even though they believed.



My Point - Just because a person “believes” does not mean they are saved, if they don’t obey.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

JLB

 

[Walpole]

Correction. It is written in Uncial (capital) letters.

Next time, you might want to actually read the content of the links you post...

Uncial ≠ miniscule

Uncial was a majuscule script.

---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncial_script

This is an example of a portion of the NT written in cursive letters (running writing):


Codex Ebnerianus, Minuscule 105, (12th), John 1:5b-10

Oz

This dates from the 12th century. Once again, the New Testament was written entirely in majuscule letters. Minuscule letters did arrive until toward the end of the first millennium.

 

[Walpole]

My own studies have given me the understanding that, yes, scripture was dictated to the authors who penned them even down to the punctuation and spaces between the words. So I way disagree with you here.

We definitely disagree here. I do not believe God dictated the words of Scripture to human authors as a boss dictates a letter to his secretary. Rather, I believe the Scriptures are inspired by God.

I'll buy that and agree with you here.



Well said. I agree.

God bless.

 

[Edward]

We definitely disagree here. I do not believe God dictated the words of Scripture to human authors as a boss dictates a letter to his secretary. Rather, I believe the Scriptures are inspired by God.

What disagreement? We seem to be agreeing with each other here. I believe the scriptures were inspired by God.

That is that, every jot and every tittle was given to (the 40 authors) to write down, every jot, tittle and spaces.

As a boss (man) gives dictation to a Secretary? I would think not, that's a little comical. But the point is, not dictated as man dictates, but in His own way. Now I don't know how it was done? Maybe it was Spirit to spirit and was just revealed to the authors inside of them...?...or perhaps it was done with rumblings and lightnings over the mountains? But what I'm saying is that in a practical sense, the text was dictated to them as their pen hit the paper.

And all of that has already been proven. It's a little much for this thread but is easily researched. All of which I speak takes us into a discussion about Bible codes. A few types are used in scripture, equidistant letter sequencing which is prolly the most prevalent, gematria and I forget the other one right now but there is too much spooky coincidences falling out of scripture that it makes it hard to not believe in a lot of design went into it.
Prolly as far as I should go there in this thread, but for a good study on Bible codes search it on youtube and watch Chuck Missler's vid's about it.

 

[Walpole]

What disagreement? We seem to be agreeing with each other here. I believe the scriptures were inspired by God.
That is that, every jot and every tittle was given to (the 40 authors) to write down, every jot, tittle and spaces.

As a boss (man) gives dictation to a Secretary? I would think not, that's a little comical. But the point is, not dictated as man dictates, but in His own way. Now I don't know how it was done? Maybe it was Spirit to spirit and was just revealed to the authors inside of them...?...or perhaps it was done with rumblings and lightnings over the mountains? But what I'm saying is that in a practical sense, the text was dictated to them as their pen hit the paper.

And all of that has already been proven. It's a little much for this thread but is easily researched. All of which I speak takes us into a discussion about Bible codes. A few types are used in scripture, equidistant letter sequencing which is prolly the most prevalent, gematria and I forget the other one right now but there is too much spooky coincidences falling out of scripture that it makes it hard to not believe in a lot of design went into it.
Prolly as far as I should go there in this thread, but for a good study on Bible codes search it on youtube and watch Chuck Missler's vid's about it.

I don't agree in divine dictation. Divine dictation again is likened to a boss dictating a letter to his secretary.

I believe the Scriptures are inspired. Inspiration means God guided the authors to be moved in such a way that their writings were of Him. This is why the books of the Bible bear distinctive marks of their human authors, spread across various cultures, times and history.

 

[Walpole]

So you do not believe that Messianic Judaism is a true Judaism?

No, I do not.

But I would argue that there is no actual "conversion" at all, just a logical next step in Judaism: New Covenant Judaism.

In order for a Jew to accept the New Covenant, he would need to convert, which is by definition a change in religious belief.

Are you aware that there are many "black hat orthodox" Jews who sit in a synagogue daily and live in a closed "haredi" community that believe in Jesus?

No, I am not. Of the many times I have been to the Holy Land, I do not recall seeing Orthodox Jews visiting the Christian sites there. The reason? Because they reject Jesus.

I know of no "judaizers" today. After all, what does a Judaizer teach and believe?

Acts 15:1b
“Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Circumcision is the final step in formal conversion to traditional Judaism.

A Judaizer is essentially someone who tries to dress up and incorporate Jewish rituals in their Christianity. The reason this is incompatible with Christianity is because the Jewish rituals pointed to something which was to come: the Messiah. By continuing to participate in these Old Testament rituals, it is implying Christ never came and fulfilled that which the Old Testament rituals all pointed to.

I will say Messianic Judaism is basically just another Protestant sect. This explains why many of their congregants aren't even Jews, but gentiles.

 

[Edward]

I don't agree in divine dictation. Divine dictation again is likened to a boss dictating a letter to his secretary.

I believe the Scriptures are inspired. Inspiration means God guided the authors to be moved in such a way that their writings were of Him. This is why the books of the Bible bear distinctive marks of their human authors, spread across various cultures, times and history.

It's not like a boss and his secretary. It was His own way to give inspiration.

the Scriptures are inspired. Inspiration means God guided the authors to be moved in such a way that their writings were of Him.

Agreed, down to the last detail. If dictation is an unsuitable word for you, then let's say...Transcribed His Word. (In the original language of course.) This is not a far fetched thing. Is anything too hard for God?

So it came to the Authors through revelation of the Holy Spirit perhaps. But the exact way they put the words to the paper and the punctuation and spacing was transcribed exactly how the Lord wanted it.

The Authors could not have written it any differently than they did, because of the inspiration.

There was no, Hey Moses I wanted that to say thou shalt not murder unnecessarily, I was not trying thou shalt not kill...so there was no room for literary variance.

 

[Walpole]

It's not like a boss and his secretary. It was His own way to give inspiration.



Agreed, down to the last detail. If dictation is an unsuitable word for you, then let's say...Transcribed His Word. (In the original language of course.) This is not a far fetched thing. Is anything too hard for God?

So it came to the Authors through revelation of the Holy Spirit perhaps. But the exact way they put the words to the paper and the punctuation and spacing was transcribed exactly how the Lord wanted it.

The Authors could not have written it any differently than they did, because of the inspiration.

There was no, Hey Moses I wanted that to say thou shalt not murder unnecessarily, I was not trying thou shalt not kill...so there was no room for literary variance.

Agreed!

I really enjoyed the discussion with you. I appreciate your patience and charity with me.

God bless.

 

[jaybo]

Some believed and confessed him and followed Him, while others, as the example I gave did not confess Him as Lord, even though they believed.



My Point - Just because a person “believes” does not mean they are saved, if they don’t obey.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

JLB

Your point doesn't mention obedience. The Scripture you quoted mentions confession and belief. It says "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Confession and belief -- only.

 

[D-D-W]

No, I do not.

You are not alone in that; but I would say that it is and the idea that it is NOT is wrong.

In order for a Jew to accept the New Covenant, he would need to convert, which is by definition a change in religious belief.

But it is NOT a "change in beliefs."

No, I am not. Of the many times I have been to the Holy Land, I do not recall seeing Orthodox Jews visiting the Christian sites there. The reason? Because they reject Jesus.

That is NOT the only reason.

A Judaizer is essentially someone who tries to dress up and incorporate Jewish rituals in their Christianity.

I gave you the BIBLICAL definition from Acts 15.1. Requiring formal conversion to Judaism in order to be saved. You cannot just make up your own definitions.

 

[JLB]

Are you aware that there are many "black hat orthodox" Jews who sit in a synagogue daily and live in a closed "haredi" community that believe in Jesus?

Judaism is a religion that rejects Jesus Christ, as the Messiah and as the Son of God.


Why any ChristIan would want to associate themselves with Judaism, a religion that teaches Jesus Christ is a false teacher and a deceiver, is beyond me.


The Talmud teaches that Jesus is in hell right now and certainly wasn’t raised from the dead.



Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22



We should all identify ourselves as followers of Christ, which is what it means to be a Christian. We should all follow the doctrine of Christ.


This is how we will believe, speak and teach the truth as Christians; followers of Christ Jesus



Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:10






JLB

 

[Walpole]

You are not alone in that; but I would say that it is and the idea that it is NOT is wrong.

It's Judaism 101.

But it is NOT a "change in beliefs."

A conversion is a change in belief. If a Jew converts to Christianity, he has changed his beliefs from expecting a messiah one day, to accepting that He already came in the Person of Jesus Christ.

That is NOT the only reason.

Orthodox Jews are forbidden from entering Christian churches because of avodah zarah. What other reason do you think Orthodox Jews avoid Christian churches?

I gave you the BIBLICAL definition from Acts 15.1. Requiring formal conversion to Judaism in order to be saved. You cannot just make up your own definitions.

Judaizer comes from the Greek, meaning, "to adopt Jewish customs and rites" and "one who observes the ritual laws of the Jews". (cf. Gal 2:14) The Judaizers believed not only was circumcision necessary, but also the observance of all the Mosaic laws. For example, see Acts 21:20-26.

 

[Walpole]

Judaism is a religion that rejects Jesus Christ, as the Messiah and as the Son of God.


Why any ChristIan would want to associate themselves with Judaism, a religion that teaches Jesus Christ is a false teacher and a deceiver, is beyond me.


The Talmud teaches that Jesus is in hell right now and certainly wasn’t raised from the dead.



Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22



We should all identify ourselves as followers of Christ, which is what it means to be a Christian. We should all follow the doctrine of Christ.


This is how we will believe, speak and teach the truth as Christians; followers of Christ Jesus



Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:10






JLB

Messianic Jews are basically a Protestant denomination. Many of the people who are associated with them are not even Jewish. It probably stems from a desire to be connected to history, tradition and ritual, which is lacking in most Protestant denominations.

 

[D-D-W]

Jews, NOT Christians, observe/celebrate the feasts like Passover, Yom Kippur and Rosh HaShanah.

Here is our Erev Rosh HaShanah service from Monday evening:

Tell me that is not Jewish.
But it is not TRADITIONAL Judaism; it is NEW COVENANT Judaism.

 

[D-D-W]

Messianic Jews are basically a Protestant denomination.

While much of Messianic theology is based on parts of Protestant theology, we are "protestant" only in the sense we are not Roman Catholic.

But there are many other parts of Messianic theology that are absolutely abhorrent to Protestant (and Catholic and Orthodox) viewpoints. And unlike Anglican, Lutheran or Reform denominations, we did not break off of the Catholic church. MJ started in the Orthodox Jewish community of Eastern Europe.

Many of the people who are associated with them are not even Jewish.

That is true. But there are many of these gentiles who actually have a Jewish heritage that they were unaware of.

 

[Walpole]

While much of Messianic theology is based on parts of Protestant theology, we are "protestant" only in the sense we are not Roman Catholic.

But there are many other parts of Messianic theology that are absolutely abhorrent to Protestant (and Catholic and Orthodox) viewpoints. And unlike Anglican, Lutheran or Reform denominations, we did not break off of the Catholic church. MJ started in the Orthodox Jewish community of Eastern Europe.

It's a Protestant sect just dressed up (quite literally) and incorporating Jewish rituals. You'll see people at their services even donning tallits.

Moishe Rosen became an ordained Baptist minister. His goal was to simply appeal to Jews and what better way than to appeal to their traditions and incorporate them into his sect.

That is true. But there are many of these gentiles who actually have a Jewish heritage that they were unaware of.

You just made my point. A gentile goes to a Jews for Jesus service not because he thinks he's Jewish, completely unaware he may even have Jewish heritage. Once again, I think the appeal for this particular Protestant sect is a desire to be connected to history, tradition and ritual, which is lacking in many Protestant denominations.